Mandatory universal vaccination

[myata]

Headlines are appearing in both French and English media, though as yet, without word "universal". Nevertheless, developing into one of the defining issues of the fall election campaign, if not the issue, complacency while waiting whatever happens may not be the smartest option. Suppose the party advocating mandatory vaccines in specific areas and environments, that in itself can be quite restrictive for an average citizen, wins the election with a majority. At this point, the situation will be entirely out of the citizen's control; suppose there's another scary wave and experts calling for mandatory boosters. There will be nothing at all in this case to prevent imposition of a mandatory uniform vaccination under the pretext of 1) majority mandate and 2) safety or the populaiton (not sure how federal vs provincial jurisdictions apply in this case).

The problem, of course, is not with the practice of vaccination per se that existed for centuries and saved countless lives. The problem is with how these critical decisions for the society in more than one sense are made.

1. All previous vaccination practices were based on decades of development and experience, including wealth of data on efficacy, side effects, etc. Even then, controversies did happen. Covid1-9 are novel with long-term information on effects absent.

2. All previous vaccines in universal use were based on natural virus, dead or weakened and so did not introduce additional factors in the environment where the virus already existed. Novel vaccines instead operate on immune system directly, with possibility of unpredictable results such as emergence of resistant variants, locking the population into permanent and what if accelerating? revaccination cycle.

3. There's no mechanisms for producing objective, competent and responsible decisions in such cases. PHO have chosen the position of high handedness and baby talk to the population, with unverified and unjustified ("travel from Wuhan") pretension for the ultimate knowledge and truth, that is being regularly confounded by the reality, while majority parties exercised the practice of suppressing discussion and dialogue on important issues.

4. Though small but not non-existent, risk of serious complications for some individuals associated with vaccination.

All in all, without responsible, competent and trusted by the society mechanism of discussing such issues and forming critical decisions following this path, based on ad hoc, at times poorly understood and formulated considerations of the moment may lead to outcomes that were not desired, are not in the interests of the society and even, potentially dangerous. We may be lazy and non inventive to fix and renew the system, but at least we should be smart enough to know and understand where better to not go. A belated apology with compensation out of taxpayers pocket decade(s) later may not be, and was never guaranteed to be a universal solution to all problems.

[myata]

Note that in the perspective of the events so far, a formal legislation may not even be needed. Instead citizens can be faced with prohibitive restrictions like mandatory paid testing before entering stores or gym, restaurant etc. Please, who can reassure me that it isn't possible by a simple edict of an unelected local PHO, mandatory mask to mandatory vaccination record, without any explanations, justifications and possibility to challenge, just-so-because?

That's real post-apocalyptic stuff and it's right at hand, another wave or two all it could take. Isn't interesting, and revealing how easy and fast it was to get here?

[Yzermandius19]

the Covid Doom Cult doesn't get it, who knew?

[myata]

Any group of humans either sufficiently large, or scared enough very quickly stops getting it. In any case, I'd like to see comments and reassurances that imposition of mandatory vaccinations, or their practical equivalents could not happen with a simple routine decree of PHO.

[myata]

Ironically, in the light of curfews and lockdowns it can be seen as a story of lighthearted carelessness. Really, in a country hit twice previously by deadly virus epidemics, and should it be mentioned, of the same type, what could be the default answer to a new potentially dangerous virus from the East but "travel from hotspot, not a problem!". It did not stop there, but on the contrary built on on the implicit, justified by neither science, nor experience (common cold; flu) assumption that there will be 1) one; 2) quick; and, necessarily, 3) blank and universal solution, "silver bullet" that would fix the problem. In place of a coordinated set of effective targeted measures that would allow to keep it under control while coexisting with it without restricting life of the society. There were of course some supporting cases - mostly in the movies, though.

None of the purported silver bullets have brought the solution any closer so far, but that has not deterred the conviction, if only the contrary. There's no convincing evidence that universal masking does much in reducing the spread in the environments with low level of infection and ample spacing. And yes, there are methods and technologies that could reduce the risk in these environments even further, down from already low. But that would mean letting go of the mind locks and assumptions and get down to real work with results that can be shown and proven. And that appears to be a problem. And so less effective but uniform placebo takes precedentce over intelligence, effectiveness and efficiency.

Here we are turning a new page though, and that maybe worth a few words. As every expert should know, the protection effect from these vaccines has expiry time measured in months not years. So what is next, in the stories of mandatory requirements for this and that? What will happen to them in say, six months? And what kind of society does want to, forget talk, even think about that?

Coexistence on a large, society-wide scale of the virus with vaccines that do not use natural agent but work directly on immunity system can have serious and easily foreseen, unless in the spirit of everlasting carelessness, effects of springing accelerating production of new variants simply by selection of more resistant mutations. This could turn into accelerating vaccines-variants race with what, anyone cares to predict, consequences? Not a problem! .. Oops.

Edited August 21, 2021 by myata

[Zeitgeist]

It’s about control.  Vaccines on top of restrictions, and when the cases are down and most people are getting vaccines, a new variant emerges to justify more restrictions and vaccines, endlessly.  

[Queenmandy85]

13 hours ago, myata said:

Ironically, in the...

I did not understand more than 5% of that. Forgive me if English is not your first language.

[myata]

10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I did not understand more than 5% of that. Forgive me if English is not your first language.

I'm deeply sympathetic. So you are looking for some help, broadcasting your incapacity here?

[myata]

13 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s about control.  Vaccines on top of restrictions, and when the cases are down and most people are getting vaccines, a new variant emerges to justify more restrictions and vaccines, endlessly.  

Well yes. Either the new variant can be just around the corner; or look, it's here! No, no can't be lifted just yet ... ever?

Edited August 21, 2021 by myata

[myata]

So here's a simple question, do we have the answer yet? Mandatory vaccination is being introduced as a requirement in different settings and environments, like transport, travel, workplaces. Everyone knows that immunity from vaccines is not permanent. Many and most experts know that for those vaccinated in the spring of this year, the immunity will begin expiring by end of the year.

So what is the meaning and implications of the mandatory requirements? Will they apply, silently and by default to any future booster(s)? Will it be checked and / or controlled by something or someone? Or just waved away automatically, no questions asked? How is that that this isn't discussed, in a society that presumably values freedom?

Edited August 22, 2021 by myata

[blackbird]

On 8/21/2021 at 7:08 PM, myata said:

So here's a simple question, do we have the answer yet? Mandatory vaccination is being introduced as a requirement in different settings and environments, like transport, travel, workplaces. Everyone knows that immunity from vaccines is not permanent. Many and most experts know that for those vaccinated in the spring of this year, the immunity will begin expiring by end of the year.

So what is the meaning and implications of the mandatory requirements? Will they apply, silently and by default to any future booster(s)? Will it be checked and / or controlled by something or someone? Or just waved away automatically, no questions asked? How is that that this isn't discussed, in a society that presumably values freedom?

It's quite simple really.  The safety of the population trumps personal freedom, which is why we have countless laws and requirements for everything under the sun.  Nobody has the right to endanger the health or life of other people in society.

[Yzermandius19]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Nobody has the right to endanger the health or life of other people in society.

nobody has the right to force others to endanger their own health or life, so that those others can feel safer about covid either

yet they still do it or support those trying to do this anyway

these people can shove their mandatory vaccinations up their ass

they don't care about the health of others, they care about controlling the behavior of others

they pretend to care about the health of others as their justification for supporting authoritarian bullshit

but when confronted with choice of choosing between the two, they always side with the authoritarian bullshit over health concerns of others, proving how full of shit they really are

only groups have rights to these people, not individuals, and only the groups they like, not the ones they don't like

all your individual rights are invalid to them, the moment a group they like wants to force individuals to do something and invokes the "safety" of the group as justification for it

they ain't subtle and the only people they are fooling with their authoritarian collectivist virtue signalling is themselves

Edited August 23, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

It's quite simple really.  The safety of the population trumps personal freedom

It is not “simple” when you are hurting some people while  supposedly helping others. 

Is that really helping? Or what is helping.

Nothing about this is simple, but there are many simpletons in charge.

[myata]

The state of this society is and should be of serious concern. Vaccines, their use and efficiency, when confirmed by independently verified data is not the question. Mandating them, without sufficient research, discussion and understanding of consequences, including long term ones, is.

All of the currently mandated vaccines have decades of research, practice and data to support them. All of them are based on natural infectious agents, and do not introduce new aspects into the relation of population immunity with the environment. Safe for most withing two, three months does not mean no consequences including negative ones, in two, three and so on, decades.

The bandwagon before and without understanding all effects and consequences is deeply disturbing. At least masks did not affect, to such an extent, natural immunity of the population. What if we're past the age of professionalism, competence and independent thinking, marching to and into the wall to Politburo's music then switch the disk and march again.

"when a large institution, when a trusted institution says this is what we expect, that normalizes a behaviour and often that is sufficient to compel a large number of people to accept the behaviour."

The City of Toronto has already announced employees must be vaccinated with both Toronto Public Health and the Toronto Transit Commission following suit.

Children's hospital CHEO will enact policies that "go beyond the Ontario government directive," making double vaccination mandatory for staff, volunteers, learners, patients and contractors.

Mandatory vaccination policies

[myata]

And surely we'll keep our head firmly in the sand, completely ignoring, deliberately and in full conscience, the obvious question: the vaccines have limited (and short) term that will soon expire. What next, then? How long are the mandatory mandates for, on what conditions, and with which checks and oversight? Someone can figure it out. And someone surely, will.

[Goddess]

Wow.

If you don't get the jab, you will be denied employment, denied restaurants, denied access to basic living.

B.C. to introduce vaccine card for activities and restaurants as COVID-19 cases climb (msn.com)

And no one here thinks this is fishy?

[myata]

This is brave new day. And we're entering it cheerfully, without thought and reflection and Heavens or whatever help us. Who else?

[Infidel Dog]

I knew these socialists of the BC, NDP were going to start acting like socialists sooner or later. It's all about the control now.

Good act at normalcy for longer than I thought they could keep it up though. 

Whatever...so now it begins.

[Winston]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Wow.

If you don't get the jab, you will be denied employment, denied restaurants, denied access to basic living.

B.C. to introduce vaccine card for activities and restaurants as COVID-19 cases climb (msn.com)

And no one here thinks this is fishy?

 

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

Even more fishy timing? 

[myata]

It's still down to the citizens, in the final count. Not saying anything about vaccinations, I vaccinated and two months back would tell anyone sure if you feel safe sure do it. Now watching where it's heading, maybe not so fast. Anyways one does not have to line up for doling out the "privileges" of the old life in exchange for the stamp of compliance, on paper or in the mind. If we as citizens wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't even with vaccination, there wouldn't be any lineups, business would suffer and politicians will backpedal, like sorry folks miscalculated whatever moved too fast without etc yada fully recognize and accept blah blah whatever. There are multiple paths and trajectories and we choose one of them, including the destination and who else?

[Yzermandius19]

80% of Canadians are for these vaccine passports

there isn't much resistance to the idea at all

the citizens will do it and thank the government for trampling their rights

because Canada sucks and Canadians suck

we are surrounded by mindless zombies, in case y'all haven't noticed

Edited August 24, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[myata]

Well then, we'll get what we paid and paying for. The expiry date on the first cycle isn't far and I certainly would hope that by some luck the country would avoid the vaccine race scenario but it wouldn't be anything of our accomplishment only sheer luck.

The problem is not fear but absence of rationality and intelligence. That is a problem. And in any situation of serious challenge and uncertainty I wouldn't like to be among irrational people. Belated apology with compensation isn't a universal solution to all problems, like who and when promised that it would be, forever?

[OftenWrong]

It's not all bad, if you die from the vaccine you get a free funeral.

Burial costs covered for Canadians killed by approved vaccines

The total budget allocated is $75M. So if a funeral costs $10k, it's covering about 7500 deaths. Of course not including the bureaucracy costs.

Ok so government funded funerals can be really cheap.

Edited August 24, 2021 by OftenWrong

[OftenWrong]

11 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

80% of Canadians are for these vaccine passports

there isn't much resistance to the idea at all

the citizens will do it and thank the government for trampling their rights

because Canada sucks and Canadians suck

we are surrounded by mindless zombies, in case y'all haven't noticed

The average Joe public was driven underground and forced-fed to stay home, or they and everyone they know will die. They've literally had the shit scared right out of them. Now they're angry. They believe that if everyone gets vaccinated, life will get back to normal. However, that is clearly not true and not going to happen for many more months, if not years, or ever. The majority of people don't know/ have not accepted this.

The next wave has already started and is bigger that any of the previous waves. Whatever methods we use, hiding indoors etc. don't work and don't even make sense.

They want to hide the fact that the next wave is coming, any day now they'll shut down again.

That is why they are screaming so hard to get the last few percent to vaccinate by force. They foolishly believe that extra few percent will save us. It will not.

We are undone.

 

[myata]

It's a one-way trajectory, a funnel. Each poorly substantiated and unverified premise of universal panacea, like just stay home, masks, now vaccines leads to deeper contradictions that can only be covered by the next cycle that has to be more massive. The expiry of the first cycle of vaccines is on the horizon. With the current case dynamics there's very little chance of eliminating the infection by end of year and that was the cornerstone premise of the strategy. And anyone in their right mind understands that 78% or 99% would not make critical difference if the strategy was working.

So what truth is the mandatory orchestra trying to distract us from and cover? Is it total absence of clues what to do next, if the idea of one basket panacea fails yet again?

Edited August 24, 2021 by myata