Increased Immigration not needed, will hurt workers

DogOnPorch · March 10, 2021

1 minute ago, Right To Left said:

What connection does some mufti have with the defunct Red Brigades or RAF factions, which were all Marxist and/or anarchist sects.... according to recently released government cables in Italy, western leaders of the time considered Red Brigades such a divisive force in Italy that they were causing dissension and breaking up the large and politically potent communist and socialist parties that could have easily taken over parliament at the time.

Mufti al-Hussein formed Fatah and his nephew Yasir formed the PLO.

DogOnPorch · March 10, 2021

Just now, Right To Left said:

That was at a time when Scandinavia was relatively poor. A lot has changed since then. Biggest one being that Norway has the highest per capita income in Europe and the most equal income and wealth distribution. Except for any plutocrats stationed there, nobody else is going to want to come to America!

I know...but you also know what Trump meant.

Right To Left · March 10, 2021

21 hours ago, Argus said:

Gee, to begin with, I haven't 'praised' the Europeans, but simply explained that that was the way the world worked back then. Second, it's a different era. What was acceptable a couple of centuries ago no longer is. Third, while Europeans have advanced, the Muslim world largely has not. Certainly not the ones in the middle east. And fourth, accepting that was the way the world once worked doesn't mean I want to be 'conquered' by foreigners while people like you throw open the gates and gleefully welcome them in because you love their quaint ethnic customs and restaurants.

The modern technocratic global empire we are living and many are struggling under today, is the worst form of imperial oppression that has ever existed in history! And this is because it has nothing to do with religious dogmas or intentions of the conquerors, but the capabilities they have to commit evil. And there's nothing like mass surveillance technologies to create the worst and most reckless form of imperialism in existence, and one that will be very hard to stop. Present conditions indicate that the only thing stopping the modern global empire will be human extinction. Many of us would rather pull the plug on this shit before a mass extermination event in the near future!

Right To Left · March 10, 2021

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

I know...but you also know what Trump meant.

That he wanted whiter immigrants?

DogOnPorch · March 10, 2021

3 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

That he wanted whiter immigrants?

So do you think Trump is racist? Or does he simply admire the Norwegian people for their accomplishments...with the assistance of North Sea oil?

Edited March 10, 2021 by DogOnPorch

dialamah · March 10, 2021

48 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Squirm race-baiter.

??? Making no sense, not surprisingly. But it reminds of my white supremacist ex-neighbor - the first time he said "race-traitor", I thought he said "race-baiter".

Argus · March 10, 2021

1 hour ago, Right To Left said:

The modern technocratic global empire we are living and many are struggling under today, is the worst form of imperial oppression that has ever existed in history!

Oh, give us all a break, please. No one with even a modicum of historical knowledge would do more than laugh at that nonsense. But hey, you're free to go back home any time.

Argus · March 10, 2021

5 hours ago, dialamah said:

1. Just one example of Christians attempting genocide.

2. Plenty of examples of Christian conversion by sword.

What's the point of this? Did anyone say otherwise? My reply was to him on the subject of the natives. Did we try to convert them at sword or gunpoint? No.

Quote

These examples of Christian barbarity is not to excuse Islamic extremists

Oh, of course they are. That's why you search desperately around for them. Any criticism of Islam infuriates you.

Quote

(or any other extremists) who think forcing someone, by threat of death, into conversion is acceptable. Its to disabuse you of the notion that Christianity is any better or different than Islam when it has power over people.

It's infinitely better, actually. You keep trying to compare Christianity from centuries past with Islam today and keep 'forgetting' that Christianity went through a reformation while Islam never did.

Quote

Just because our nightly news only reports violence by non-Christians doesn't mean Christianity is exempt.

Do you want me to post a cite from that site which records the tens of thousands of acts of Islamic terrorism and try to compare that to Christian violence?

Quote

If everyone - politicians, Muslims, Christians - rejected the tribalism you champion,

I don't champion it. I acknowledge it. And your argument amounts to naive, wishful thinking, because Muslims are certainly not going to reject it. They can't. Half their holy books (two thirds by some reckoning) are about how to treat non-believers (badly).

Edited March 10, 2021 by Argus

cannuck · March 10, 2021

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

So do you think Trump is racist?

Of course he is - as is virtually everyone else on this planet. The only difference is he makes little effort to hide it

bush_cheney2004 · March 10, 2021

1 hour ago, Right To Left said:

That was at a time when Scandinavia was relatively poor. A lot has changed since then. Biggest one being that Norway has the highest per capita income in Europe and the most equal income and wealth distribution. Except for any plutocrats stationed there, nobody else is going to want to come to America!

Actually, Europe has still remained a steady source of naturalized U.S. citizens year over year...more than from South America and similar to Africa. In 2019, about 11,000 Canadians became U.S. citizens. The U.S. has more landed immigrants than any other country in the world...the vast majority are not "plutocrats".

Table 21.
PERSONS NATURALIZED BY REGION AND COUNTRY OF BIRTH: FISCAL YEARS 2010 TO 2019

Region and country of birth	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019
REGION
Total	619,913	694,193	757,434	779,929	653,416	730,259	753,060	707,265	761,901	843,593
Africa	64,022	69,738	74,775	71,872	62,175	71,492	72,338	61,851	64,934	84,990
Asia	251,598	249,940	257,035	275,700	233,163	261,374	271,733	255,306	275,621	327,273
Europe	78,011	82,209	82,714	80,333	71,325	78,074	74,344	65,141	71,436	81,040
North America	163,836	217,750	261,673	271,807	222,547	247,492	259,845	258,371	277,592	276,910
Oceania	3,646	3,734	3,886	3,849	3,399	3,811	3,953	3,327	3,792	4,308
South America	58,474	70,485	76,992	76,167	60,665	67,927	70,821	63,063	67,892	68,678
Unknown	326	337	359	201	142	89	26	206	634	394

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/naturalizations

Argus · March 11, 2021

Came across this from the CD Howe Institute. For those claiming immigration doesn't impact wages, guess what, it does. Also, there's little evidence immigration is helping our economy

...

But to issue so many invitations, it was forced to drop its Comprehensive Ranking System cut-off score in its Express Entry system to an all-time low of 75, far below the previous record of 413. This strategy is analogous to a university doing away with entry standards to significantly boost enrolment. If history is an indicator, there is good reason for concern.

The primary objective of Canada’s economic-class immigration programs is to leverage immigration policy to boost the economic well-being of Canadians. To do that, we need immigration inflows to raise GDP per capita, not simply increase the population.

To assess if we are achieving this objective, Canadian researchers examine earnings of new immigrants. Since workers’ earnings comprise roughly two-thirds of GDP, we need new immigrants to earn more than the national average if we are to raise GDP per capita.

Unfortunately, the evidence is that Canada has historically struggled to achieve this objective, and continues to struggle.

...

We know from Canadian research that increasing immigration, even in a strong economy, depresses the earnings of new immigrants during their first years in Canada. What is less clear is to what extent this effect reflects increased competition for jobs, as opposed to “quality-quantity” trade-offs in the admissions of new immigrants.

Is there any evidence that the adverse effects of raising immigration levels may be exacerbated when domestic labour markets are weak?

On this question there is little evidence simply because it is unusual for countries to significantly increase immigration levels during recessions, for good reason.

https://www.cdhowe.org/intelligence-memos/mahboubi-skuterud-–-economic-reality-check-canadian-immigration-part-ii

blackbird · March 11, 2021

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Came across this from the CD Howe Institute. For those claiming immigration doesn't impact wages, guess what, it does. Also, there's little evidence immigration is helping our economy

...

But to issue so many invitations, it was forced to drop its Comprehensive Ranking System cut-off score in its Express Entry system to an all-time low of 75, far below the previous record of 413. This strategy is analogous to a university doing away with entry standards to significantly boost enrolment. If history is an indicator, there is good reason for concern.

The primary objective of Canada’s economic-class immigration programs is to leverage immigration policy to boost the economic well-being of Canadians. To do that, we need immigration inflows to raise GDP per capita, not simply increase the population.

To assess if we are achieving this objective, Canadian researchers examine earnings of new immigrants. Since workers’ earnings comprise roughly two-thirds of GDP, we need new immigrants to earn more than the national average if we are to raise GDP per capita.

Unfortunately, the evidence is that Canada has historically struggled to achieve this objective, and continues to struggle.

...

We know from Canadian research that increasing immigration, even in a strong economy, depresses the earnings of new immigrants during their first years in Canada. What is less clear is to what extent this effect reflects increased competition for jobs, as opposed to “quality-quantity” trade-offs in the admissions of new immigrants.

Is there any evidence that the adverse effects of raising immigration levels may be exacerbated when domestic labour markets are weak?

On this question there is little evidence simply because it is unusual for countries to significantly increase immigration levels during recessions, for good reason.

https://www.cdhowe.org/intelligence-memos/mahboubi-skuterud-–-economic-reality-check-canadian-immigration-part-ii

What immigration from the third world does is help the Liberals get re-elected. That's why they want to bring in a million immigrants over three years. They've been in power most of Canada's history and this is probably one reason why.

Right To Left · March 11, 2021

12 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

So do you think Trump is racist? Or does he simply admire the Norwegian people for their accomplishments...with the assistance of North Sea oil?

There's little doubt he's a racist, just from what has come out of his own mouth over the years. Think back to the role he played in the Central Park Five fiasco about 30 years ago, when he first started plotting out a path for a political career.

Not to mention that both the Donald and his father were among the worst slumlords in New York City...before Donnie decided to move upscale to high end luxury real estate in Manhattan...where the only blacks who could buy in would be celebrities.

And don't forget that his rambling comment about "why can't we get more Norwegians" came after he referred to Haiti as a shithole country! If he had any awareness, he would know that Haiti's neverending misery is a direct consequence of US foreign policy in America's "backyard!"

Right To Left · March 11, 2021

10 hours ago, cannuck said:

Of course he is - as is virtually everyone else on this planet. The only difference is he makes little effort to hide it

That is actually why, much to the chagrin of many Democrats, many black Americans give Trump credit for at least going out unfiltered like politicians are expected to do.

Right To Left · March 11, 2021

6 hours ago, Argus said:

Came across this from the CD Howe Institute. For those claiming immigration doesn't impact wages, guess what, it does. Also, there's little evidence immigration is helping our economy

...

But to issue so many invitations, it was forced to drop its Comprehensive Ranking System cut-off score in its Express Entry system to an all-time low of 75, far below the previous record of 413. This strategy is analogous to a university doing away with entry standards to significantly boost enrolment. If history is an indicator, there is good reason for concern.

The primary objective of Canada’s economic-class immigration programs is to leverage immigration policy to boost the economic well-being of Canadians. To do that, we need immigration inflows to raise GDP per capita, not simply increase the population.

To assess if we are achieving this objective, Canadian researchers examine earnings of new immigrants. Since workers’ earnings comprise roughly two-thirds of GDP, we need new immigrants to earn more than the national average if we are to raise GDP per capita.

Unfortunately, the evidence is that Canada has historically struggled to achieve this objective, and continues to struggle.

...

We know from Canadian research that increasing immigration, even in a strong economy, depresses the earnings of new immigrants during their first years in Canada. What is less clear is to what extent this effect reflects increased competition for jobs, as opposed to “quality-quantity” trade-offs in the admissions of new immigrants.

Is there any evidence that the adverse effects of raising immigration levels may be exacerbated when domestic labour markets are weak?

On this question there is little evidence simply because it is unusual for countries to significantly increase immigration levels during recessions, for good reason.

https://www.cdhowe.org/intelligence-memos/mahboubi-skuterud-–-economic-reality-check-canadian-immigration-part-ii

I was of the impression that the C.D. Howe Institute was still a conservative 'think' tank...but I could be wrong! Our fat, stupid Conservative Premier here in Ontario wants lots of new immigrants to keep driving up real estate demand and prices.

And with the downward pressure on wages and salaries, it seems like being for open immigration would have been a conservative policy a lot longer....if it wasn't for so many xenophobic conservatives who aren't comfortable around dark people.

Right To Left · March 11, 2021

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Actually, Europe has still remained a steady source of naturalized U.S. citizens year over year...more than from South America and similar to Africa. In 2019, about 11,000 Canadians became U.S. citizens. The U.S. has more landed immigrants than any other country in the world...the vast majority are not "plutocrats".

Table 21.
PERSONS NATURALIZED BY REGION AND COUNTRY OF BIRTH: FISCAL YEARS 2010 TO 2019

Region and country of birth 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019
REGION
Total 619,913 694,193 757,434 779,929 653,416 730,259 753,060 707,265 761,901 843,593
Africa 64,022 69,738 74,775 71,872 62,175 71,492 72,338 61,851 64,934 84,990
Asia 251,598 249,940 257,035 275,700 233,163 261,374 271,733 255,306 275,621 327,273
Europe 78,011 82,209 82,714 80,333 71,325 78,074 74,344 65,141 71,436 81,040
North America 163,836 217,750 261,673 271,807 222,547 247,492 259,845 258,371 277,592 276,910
Oceania 3,646 3,734 3,886 3,849 3,399 3,811 3,953 3,327 3,792 4,308
South America 58,474 70,485 76,992 76,167 60,665 67,927 70,821 63,063 67,892 68,678
Unknown 326 337 359 201 142 89 26 206 634 394

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/naturalizations

As a general rule, people don't leave their homelands until they feel some need to do so. So, a breakdown of European immigration would likely reveal that they are either from first or second generation immigrant families over there, or from European nations that are extremely poor and losing their young people, like Ukraine, Greece, Macedonia etc.. So, I still doubt there is much of a demand from the average Norwegian in modern times to move to America .... or anywhere else for that matter!

* it would be interesting to see what the breakdown is for the very large Asian immigration numbers.

bush_cheney2004 · March 11, 2021

2 hours ago, Right To Left said:

So, I still doubt there is much of a demand from the average Norwegian in modern times to move to America .... or anywhere else for that matter!

The Norwegians finally got their economic act together thanks to petroleum development, after decades of agricultural failures and other challenges. Norwegian immigrants to the U.S. numbered north of 900,000 at one time. Norway was the largest per-capita recipient of U.S. Marshall Plan funding after WW2. Today, the number of new annual Norwegian immigrants, residents, or naturalized citizens numbers less than 1,000.

Quote

* it would be interesting to see what the breakdown is for the very large Asian immigration numbers.

India > Philippines > China > Vietnam > South Korea > Pakistan

Canada pays a net migration tax in numbers, as landed immigrants seek true economic love elsewhere once establishing permanent residency and citizenship. About 10% of Canadian citizens do not reside in Canada by choice, a relatively high number.

DogOnPorch · March 11, 2021

9 hours ago, Right To Left said:

There's little doubt he's a racist, just from what has come out of his own mouth over the years.

Such as?

marcus · March 11, 2021

The are 2 main reasons they are doing this:

1) They need an injection of money into the economy. Immigrants bring money. In 2018, international students in Canada contributed around $21.6 billion to Canada’s GDP and supported almost 170,000 jobs for Canada’s middle class. These international students will eventually become Canadian PR.

2) There are gaps in the job market. There are sectors and industries that cannot fill positions. The competition is high for skilled workers in tech and healthcare. NZ, Australia and the U.S. are fighting for these skilled workers.

It's unfortnate that not more Canadians are going to school for tech and healthcare. Because this is where we need workers.

We also have the low-skilled jobs that Canadians are not willing to fill: Mainly food processing work, farm work and caregivers.

Edited March 11, 2021 by marcus

Right To Left · March 11, 2021

8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The Norwegians finally got their economic act together thanks to petroleum development, after decades of agricultural failures and other challenges. Norwegian immigrants to the U.S. numbered north of 900,000 at one time. Norway was the largest per-capita recipient of U.S. Marshall Plan funding after WW2. Today, the number of new annual Norwegian immigrants, residents, or naturalized citizens numbers less than 1,000.

India > Philippines > China > Vietnam > South Korea > Pakistan

Canada pays a net migration tax in numbers, as landed immigrants seek true economic love elsewhere once establishing permanent residency and citizenship. About 10% of Canadian citizens do not reside in Canada by choice, a relatively high number.

But, my point was that Donald Trump was calling for Norwegian immigration in 2017, and that ain't going to happen! Cause unlike the idiot rightwingers running Alberta, Norway didn't squander their billions earned from oil exports...leaving a sovereign wealth fund that is today worth about $4000 per every Albertan! The Heritage Fund principle has been flatlining in value for most of the past 40 years. No doubt under the expectation that, even after running out of real oil, they could just switch to shipping out the diluted bitumen crap as dirty, heavy oil. If major capitalists are for real about all their 'alternative' energy models, then that crap stays in the ground...as it always should have! Years ago, tar sands were dug up and used for paving roads/not trying to burn for fuel!

While Norway squirreled their oil revenues in a sovereign wealth fund that now gives them 'an embarrassment of riches'......also unlike England-with their share of North Sea oil wealth, As one Guardian reporter noted about the underfunding of England's NHS four years ago...long before the Covid-19 pandemic made the situation even worse: "North Sea oil could have helped tackle the NHS crisis and pension liabilities by contributing to a sovereign wealth fund" But that ship has already sailed long ago!

Edited March 11, 2021 by Right To Left

Right To Left · March 11, 2021

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Such as?

Do I have to look up everything for you? I already mentioned his rush to judgment and expensive ads he placed calling for the execution of the Central Park Five, and his racist landlord policies that go all the way back to the early 70's, when he and his father kept two separate sets of books on prices of apartments for rent....much higher for any prospective black tenants than white and was even sued by the Federal Justice Dept. as a result:

Donald Trump Was Once Sued By Justice Department For Not Renting To Blacks

That ought to be easy enough to find!

Shady · May 9, 2021

This is what massive immigration has done to Canada’s housing industry. It’s made home ownership completely unaffordable.

Argus · May 9, 2021

On 3/11/2021 at 2:37 PM, marcus said:

The are 2 main reasons they are doing this:

1) They need an injection of money into the economy. Immigrants bring money. In 2018, international students in Canada contributed around $21.6 billion to Canada’s GDP and supported almost 170,000 jobs for Canada’s middle class. These international students will eventually become Canadian PR.

I'm not against providing educations for foreign students so long as it does not detract from the educational experience of Canadian kids. That has to be the priority. Why not set up separate institutions for foreigners?

On 3/11/2021 at 2:37 PM, marcus said:

2) There are gaps in the job market. There are sectors and industries that cannot fill positions. The competition is high for skilled workers in tech and healthcare. NZ, Australia and the U.S. are fighting for these skilled workers.

Gaps in the job market can be addressed by Capitalism. A shortage of workers makes employers increase salaries and training, which draws more workers. Unless we constantly interfere by using immigration to keep salaries artificially low.

On 3/11/2021 at 2:37 PM, marcus said:

It's unfortnate that not more Canadians are going to school for tech and healthcare. Because this is where we need workers.

They could be encouraged to do so by lowering tuition for subjects we want them to take and increasing it for the ones we don't. We could also refuse loans and grants for shit courses which supply us with grads with useless skills.

On 3/11/2021 at 2:37 PM, marcus said:

We also have the low-skilled jobs that Canadians are not willing to fill: Mainly food processing work, farm work and caregivers.

There is no low-skilled job Canadians won't do if the salary is right. What immigration does is provide a steady stream of desperate newcomers who will do those jobs at rock bottom prices. Which is why business loves immigration.

dialamah · May 9, 2021

29 minutes ago, Argus said:

Why not set up separate institutions for foreigners?

Because then people would complain that 'foreigners even have their own schools, where they don't learn the Canadian way of life". Or some such.

Argus · May 19, 2021

Dianne Francis makes clear the real point of immigration is votes, not improving the economy, while comparing other, more responsible countries cutting back on immigration during tough economic times with our full-speed-ahead approach.

The ravages of the pandemic have resulted in prudence elsewhere. The U.S. reduced its visa approvals a year ago, Australia lowered its immigration target to 160,000 (with 28 million people compared to Canada’s 37.7 million), and New Zealand said its priority was to train people already in the country for available jobs.

By contrast, Mendicino announced that of the 400,000 allowed in per year, the breakdown would be 232,000 immigrants in the economic class, or employable people; 103,500 in the family class (mostly parents and grandparents); and 65,000 refugees and protected persons.

https://financialpost.com/diane-francis/diane-francis-trudeaus-immigration-scheme-is-just-another-way-to-redistribute-canadas-wealth