Mask wearing. The mark of the beast.

[cannuck]

On 11/27/2020 at 6:22 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Why stop at masks? What about the oppression of having to use toilet paper or soap? 

Since when do you HAVE to use toilet paper or soap?  You could go all of the way, or if you just use soap it sure sucks to be left handed.

[Army Guy]

13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I'm not taking your mask away from you. Hell, go ahead. Your breath stinks anyway, and I don't want you to be any closer than 2m from me even on a good day,

so,

I know people who have health issues like fibroyalgia, and other conditions where you have to go to the gym every day. The more exercise you get the better it is to manage the symptoms.

These peopls cannot afford a 5000 Norditrak in the exercise suite, if you know what I mean.  

Your missing the point altogether, this whole mask/social distance/ washing your hands thing is not going to work if EVERYONE does not follow the 3 simple protocols put in place. Transmission rates will continue to climb, overwhelming our health sys, perhaps closing down everything once again, not to mention putting our long term care homes in great danger.

I don't think there is anyone out there that likes our current state, and what it is doing to our health, and economy . And yes there are people who are going to fall through the cracks, commit suicide, have mental health events, die from waiting on a medical procedure, etc etc... The current protocols are put in place to keep the maximum amount of people healthy and alive, it's not going to save everyone, people need to come to terms with that people are going to die.. and it is beyond our control to save everyone.

Only "you" have the power to comply to 3 simple protocols, not doing it is your choice. But it's not your health we are worried about it is the majority's, you know your neighbors, families, friends.   If you don't want to play, then don't... be that person.

I really don't see the problem here with following 3 simples requests... 

[Army Guy]

edited

Edited November 29, 2020 by Army Guy

[OftenWrong]

But people are complying Army Guy, look around you. These days if you see a bare face inside a store, you do a double-take.

I do not miss many points, my point is these immediate steps do not address the hidden cost, I mean not just financial but societal as a whole, and that cost is pretty significant.

So as long as our chubby well-fed leaders stand there and crow about how this in in our best interests, I do not agree, until they take more meaningful and esoteric actions.

[cannuck]

18 hours ago, dialamah said:

Cite.

Sorry not to have replied yesterday.

Rather than cherry pick a bunch of internet stuff, just think about what we have seen in the spring vs. what we are seeing now.  The first wave was kicked off by a total lack of border control by the Feds.  The resulting response saw nobody on the road, nobody in stores, huge level of curbside deliveries and very few masks (at least in this area).  Numbers were brought quickly under control where this was the case.   Fast forward to this fall, and everyone is wearing a mask, but everyone is going inside of stores, schools, malls, etc. to shop - because we have instilled such a false sense of security in them that the mask will somehow give them full protection.   Note that even after 6 months to learn the lessons, adding the false mask security element to the equation, we have far, far higher levels of infection in the second wave.   That applies to Yurp as well as Canada.

I have as yet to see any material that attempts to quantify the contributions to today's numbers.  If you/we want to fix them, the answer is STAY THE F**K AT HOME and isolated within your immediate family bubble.

Edited November 29, 2020 by cannuck

[dialamah]

 

20 hours ago, cannuck said:

Fast forward to this fall, and everyone is wearing a mask, but everyone is going inside of stores, schools, malls, etc. to shop - because we have instilled such a false sense of security in them that the mask will somehow give them full protection.   Note that even after 6 months to learn the lessons, adding the false mask security element to the equation, we have far, far higher levels of infection in the second wave.   

Over the late spring/summer, people gained a false sense of security due to the success of the near-blanket shutdowns; as a result, people increased their social interactions, while reducing mitigating efforts.  This continued into the fall, because people still felt safe, and gave the virus an opening to spread quickly.  Positive tests went up, but people are sick of staying home and not having any fun, 'nobody knew anyone who was sick', 'it mostly kills old people' and 'it's 99% survival rate' touted by deniers justified a certain group of people to decide they didn't need to be careful - specifically, the group between 20 and 40; this is where the infections are spreading the fastest.

After weeks of begging people to take precautions and follow public health advise and having so many people ignore them, masks have been mandated (in BC and other places) as, I presume, the final step before another near-blanket lockdown.  And these mitigation efforts aren't really to save lives; once again, it's to prevent our health system from becoming completely overwhelmed by people in the hospital with Covid, even if they don't die - they'll take up a bed from between a few days to several weeks.  

The argument that 'masks don't work because cases continue to rise even though people wear masks' fails because masks haven't been "required" anywhere in Canada till very recently - well after cases started rising very quickly, so plenty of people didn't bother - and because masks aren't (and nobody has claimed they are) 100% preventative.  They're a tool that helps, not a guarantee of success.

[cannuck]

22 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The argument that 'masks don't work because cases continue to rise even though people wear masks' fails because masks haven't been "required" anywhere in Canada till very recently - well after cases started rising very quickly, so plenty of people didn't bother - and because masks aren't (and nobody has claimed they are) 100% preventative.  They're a tool that helps, not a guarantee of success.

As I said: not enough data that I have seen to quantify what the contribution of voluntary masking vs. enforced wearing of something WITH NO PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS fits into the numbers we have now.   I do spend some time as a technical advisor with people in the medical PPE business and can tell you that a rag over your face, you may call a "mask" but is just a rag over your face.  Believing it is adequate for close indoor interaction is idiotic at the very least.  Again: I STRONGLY suspect this false sense of security (and other Covid fatigue factors) contribute greatly to the second wave numbers.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, cannuck said:

As I said: not enough data that I have seen to quantify what the contribution of voluntary masking vs. enforced wearing of something WITH NO PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS fits into the numbers we have now.   I do spend some time as a technical advisor with people in the medical PPE business and can tell you that a rag over your face, you may call a "mask" but is just a rag over your face.  Believing it is adequate for close indoor interaction is idiotic at the very least.  Again: I STRONGLY suspect this false sense of security (and other Covid fatigue factors) contribute greatly to the second wave numbers.

I work in a legal capacity with the Provincial Government and in that role provide information to the public.  That doesn't make me a lawyer. 

In the same way, your position as a 'technical advisor' for PPE doesn't make you a medical professional or a researcher.  I'll take their word over yours, and their word is - "Masks are an important tool to help reduce the spread of Covid". 

[cannuck]

22 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I work in a legal capacity with the Provincial Government and in that role provide information to the public.  That doesn't make me a lawyer. 

In the same way, your position as a 'technical advisor' for PPE doesn't make you a medical professional or a researcher.  I'll take their word over yours, and their word is - "Masks are an important tool to help reduce the spread of Covid". 

My expertise is in filtration.  I advise people who manufacture and supply PPE.  No, that doesn't make me a medical expert, didn't say I was.  What it DOES make me is aware of how particulates move in, through and AROUND a rag over your face.  I will point out that medical experts are not filtration experts - so take their blanket statements with a HUGE grain of well filtered salt.

So I will state once again and VERY clearly:  a rag over your face is NOT a mask.   Medical professionals with high levels or risk and exposure don't count on a rag over their face.   Only a FITTED and fit tested, fully sealed mask can deliver the performance required to meet the values of the specifications of the filtration medium.  If you are speaking with anyone who is technically competent, they will confirm this.   A blanket general statement is not in any way technically accurate.  If you prefer to risk your life and those of others with generalized statements from people NOT technically qualified to comment on the efficacy of a filtration system, that is your option.   I don't get to write the laws of science and physics, I just have to live by them.  I don't get paid to deal in generalizations, just facts.

[-TSS-]

You can also see people wearing masks hanging under their chin and when they step onto public transport they put the mask over their face. That is absolute bollocks and likely to be more harmful than useful.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

So I will state once again and VERY clearly:  a rag over your face is NOT a mask.   Medical professionals with high levels or risk and exposure don't count on a rag over their face.   

A surgical mask is not a "rag over your face", and is used by medical professionals in many settings to protect patients.  A cloth mask made to specifications suggested by professionals is not a "rag over your face".  Cloth masks can rival surgical masks in limiting aerosol exhalations.  

Using the term "rag over your face" is your attempt to minimize the proven effectiveness of masking, and betrays the weakness of your argument.

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Only a FITTED and fit tested, fully sealed mask can deliver the performance required to meet the values of the specifications of the filtration medium.

There's no denying that full PPE is highly superior to either surgical masks or cloth masks for protection from Covid.  Nonetheless, even with full PPE, people have contracted Covid.  Should they not wear PPE because it's only extremely effective, and not 100% effective?  

Medical workers are in high risk situations that the public is not.  Is it reasonable to insist that low-risk situations must have the same safety protocols as high-risk situations or "don't bother"?  

Several studies have confirmed that masks help reduce the spread of Covid.  No studies have said they'll prevent Covid.  People who argue against masks because they aren't as good as N95 masks or because people don't wear them perfectly are undermining a useful tool that can help prevent more deaths, more shutdowns and more economic pain.  They should stop it.

Edited November 30, 2020 by dialamah

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

A surgical mask is not a "rag over your face", and is used by medical professionals in many settings to protect patients.  A cloth mask made to specifications suggested by professionals is not a "rag over your face".  Cloth masks can rival surgical masks in limiting aerosol exhalations.  

You can live or die in your fantasy world, I will remain in the real one.   BTW: at no time did I call a surgical mask "a rag over your face" - but let's not let your challenges with understanding the language get in the way of a good spin attempt.

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

You can live or die in your fantasy world, I will remain in the real one.   

The fantasy world is inhabited by people who assume their passing knowledge of any particular topic trumps the knowledge of those who've spent years training for and working in the field.   People in the real world are able to recognize that experts are experts for a reason, and don't assume their own knowledge is greater.  

[Infidel Dog]

Tons of experts are against lockdowns. Some don't even think cloth masks matter much.

Or are you speaking Prog? When you say "experts," do you mean "our experts." 

[cannuck]

15 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The fantasy world is inhabited by people who assume their passing knowledge of any particular topic trumps the knowledge of those who've spent years training for and working in the field.   People in the real world are able to recognize that experts are experts for a reason, and don't assume their own knowledge is greater.  

Which is precisely what I just told you.

[SpankyMcFarland]

A century later, the Anti-Mask League lives on:

Quote

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/mask-protests-1918.html

 

[cannuck]

On 11/30/2020 at 8:42 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

A century later, the Anti-Mask League lives on:

On the other hand, here is a transcript of a very well qualified medical professional speaking to Edmonton city council:

Yea, you should hear the splashback in Alberta from the rest of the medical community.

Not sure I completely agree with this guy, but when I read his comments on aerosol transmission I can say that agrees closely with what my medical pro friends tell me.  Also, his mask comments are a bit on the extreme side, but I can definitely say from a filtration point of view, not that far wrong.

When he says "it is not SARS" that of course is 100% wrong, the virus is SARS-Cov 2

As to the "just another flu" can't say I fully agree with that (again from how med pros tell me the relationship of this virus to ACE protein means this is far more vascular than pulmonary in more aggressive infections, with potential renal, cardiological and even neurological involvement (again because of ACE protein).

Mostly I will post this to see if Dialamah's head will explode.

 

"transcript of the Edmonton City Council virtual meeting held on Nov. 13, 2020 regarding the City’s proposal to mandate masks until May 2021.

This is the transcript of Dr. Roger Hodkinson’s professional opinion.

00:26 “The floor is yours.” City Councillor, Aaron Paquette, Chair of the Committee.

Dr. Hodkinson:

00:29 “Thank you very much. I do appreciate the opportunity to address you on this very important matter. What I am going to say is lay language and blunt. It is counter narrative.

So you do not immediately think I am a quack, I am going to outline my credentials so you can understand where I’m coming from in terms of a knowledge base in all of this.

-I am a medical specialist in Pathology which includes virology.

-I trained at Cambridge University, UK

-I am the ex-president of the Pathology Section of the Medical Association

-I was previously an Assistant Professor of the Faculty of Medicine, University of Alberta, doing a lot of teaching

-I was the Chairman of the Board of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada Examination Committee in Pathology in Ottawa

-More to the point, I am currently, the Chairman of a Biotechnology Company in North Carolina, selling the Covid-19 test. You might say, I know a little bit about all this.

01:28 The bottom line is simply this, there is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians. It is outrageous. This is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public.

01:43 There is absolutely nothing that can be done to contain this virus, other than protecting more vulnerable people. It should be thought of nothing more than a bad flu season. This is not Ebola. It is not SARS. It is politics playing medicine, and that is a very dangerous game.

02:06 There is no action of any kind needed other than what happened last year when we felt unwell. We stayed home, we took chicken noodle soup, we didn’t visit Granny, and WE decided when WE would return to work. We didn’t have anyone, need anyone, to tell us.

02:23 Masks are utterly useless. There is no evidence base for their effectiveness whatsoever. Paper masks and fabric masks are simply virtue signalling. They are not even worn effectively most of the time. It is utterly ridiculous.

02:40 Seeing these unfortunate, uneducated people (I’m not saying that in a perjurious sense), seeing these people walking around like lemmings obeying without any knowledge base to put the mask on their face.

02:54 Social distancing is also useless because Covid is spread by aerosols which travel 30 metres or so before landing. And closures have had such terrible unintended consequences. Everywhere should be open tomorrow, as was stated in the Great Barrington Declaration that I circulated prior to this meeting.

03:18 And a word on testing, I do want to emphasize, I’m in the business of testing for Covid. I do want to emphasize, that positive test results, DO NOT, underlined in neon, mean a clinical infection. It’s simply driving public hysteria and all testing should STOP unless you are presenting to hospital with some respiratory problem.

03:42 All that should be done, is to protect the vulnerable and to give them all in the nursing homes that are under your control, 3000-5000 international units of Vitamin D everyday, which has shown to radically reduce the likelihood of infection.

03:58 I would remind you all using the Province’s own statistics, the risk of death under 65, in this province, is 1 in 300,000...1 in 300,000. You’ve got to get a grip on this. The scale of the response that you are undertaking with no evidence for it, is utterly ridiculous given the consequences of acting in a way that you are proposing. All kinds of suicides, business closures, funerals, weddings, etcetera, etcetera. It is simply outrageous.

04:38 It is just another bad flu. And you have got to get your minds around that. Let people make their own decisions. You should be totally out of the business of medicine. You are being led down the garden path by the Chief Medical Officer of Health of this province.

04:55 I am absolutely outraged that this has reached this level. It should all stop tomorrow. Thank you very much.”

Transcript excerpt by Leandra Loewen from a screen recording, Nov. 13, 2020, Edmonton City Council"

[Army Guy]

On 11/29/2020 at 1:07 PM, OftenWrong said:

But people are complying Army Guy, look around you. These days if you see a bare face inside a store, you do a double-take.

I do not miss many points, my point is these immediate steps do not address the hidden cost, I mean not just financial but societal as a whole, and that cost is pretty significant.

So as long as our chubby well-fed leaders stand there and crow about how this in in our best interests, I do not agree, until they take more meaningful and esoteric actions.

I agree 100%, i think they got into the trough and started to spend like a mad man, 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Presumably, a person saying “just another flu” really means a virus causing an average flu season and not 1918. 
 

That was quite the rant from Hodkinson there. A link would be great. His basic pathology qualification, 44 years ago mind you, was in general pathology where he would have been exposed to some basic virology. AFAIK he is not a virologist. The Royal College has issued a statement about his involvement with them:

Quote

On November 19, 2020 the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (Royal College) was made aware of statements regarding COVID-19 by a Royal College Fellow, Dr. Roger Hodkinson. Although Dr. Hodkinson has never made the claim, in some online references, Dr. Hodkinson is being incorrectly identified as a chair/past-chair of the Royal College.

We would like to clarify that Dr. Hodkinson is not nor has ever held the position of chairman of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.

We can confirm that Dr. Roger Hodkinson was certified by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada as a general pathologist in 1976.

https://newsroom.royalcollege.ca/clarification-on-statements-made-regarding-covid-19-by-dr-roger-hodkinson/

Which doesn’t explicitly clear up the claim he is said to have made about the examination committee. However, I presume the College would have admitted that if it were true? 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

I don’t know why Hodkinson thinks his qualifications should impress anybody. They’re not particularly relevant to the subject. Lord knows what he is up to with this investment in the US but it doesn’t imply expertise. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

Hodkinson’s rather animated speech just sounds like a geezer having a rant which is what we tend to do. 

[oops]

14 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Hodkinson’s rather animated speech just sounds like a geezer having a rant which is what we tend to do. 

You disparage Mr. Hodkison as being a geezer, but I assume that you hope one day to be one. I don't know your background or area of expertise, and I am not a betting man, but if I was I would wager that Mr. Hodkinson is more qualified to address the subject than you are. I know from experience that if a person is faced with a person with with an opposing point of view, and a superior argument, that person will often attack the presenter, rather than address the issue. At any rate people wearing masks does not prevent the spread of the virus.

Edited December 4, 2020 by oops

[cannuck]

As I mentioned when posting the transcript, Hodkison made several statements that are not correct at all, as do many people from the medical side when speaking about the technical attributes of a filter that they are NOT in any way qualified to really represent.   Not saying they COULDN'T get it right, but coming as a profession to that part of the discussion, they are not really the right people to make such statements about the device.  Now, a medical statistician CAN give a credible statement, but what I have seen in pretty much EVERY discipline is how you generate your statistics and especially how you interpret and represent them can very strongly be affected by the agendae of those who have participated or funded.

Spanky hits the real issue right smack on the button: "people wearing masks does not prevent the spread of the virus".  I do not suggest NOT using a mask, just realizing that doing so can give a very false sense of security and lead people into interacting inside of closed environments where the severe leakage of virus-borne vapour can AND WILL easily be put into the air in a closed space.  We have with months of experience dozens of ways for most businesses to operate WITHOUT having clients enter their bubble - it's just that all of the care we seemed to take in the spring seems to be ignored by many today when the threat level is MUCH higher.

BTW: one of my issues with Hodkison, and this is a big one, is that it is not a severe and dangerous infection.  Again, for MOST people it is minor, but for a significant number (check the ICUs and morgues) can be severe, fatal or with lasting serious compromises.

Only a fool would think that putting a rag over your face and cuddling up to strangers is safe in any way.

[Infidel Dog]

More just for fun but you gotta see this:

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

More just for fun but you gotta see this:

 

Put me in mind of Black Sabbath.  Somehow strangely appropriate.