This is now very little ability to disagree with the Left

[DogOnPorch]

I see David Menzies was attacked in the streets again while doing his job by the tolerant Lefties.

 

[Argus]

39 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

My stereotypes are over the top and meant to highlight your hypocrisy.  Both of us can oversimplify and generalize an argument unfairly.  

To compare the Tea Party to the current protests is beyond foolish.  On the one hand, we're dealing with decades of black people being basically murdered by police,

Hang on. What we're dealing with are the PERCEPTIONS that black people have been 'basically murdered by police'. But the data does not bear that perception out. The number of police shootings has been in steady decline for decades. Something like 14 unarmed black people were killed last year by police vs about 7,000 murdered by other black people.  And 'unarmed' does not mean they were calmly surrendering.

People are victims of a media bias which focuses on and exploits any police killing of black people while it largely ignores the similar killings involving white people. All killings of black people which are not absolutely clear-cut self-defense are portrayed as racially motivated while no bias is ever suggested in killings of whites by police. There is absolutely zero evidence that the cop who killed George Floyd was racist or motivated by racism. There is similarly zero evidence that the killing of Rayshad Brooks had any racial motivation or cause.

Yes, police kill black people in a greater statistical number than their proportion in the general population but blacks commit crimes in a much greater statistical amount than their proportion in the general population. It is criminals, police focus and have violent interactions with, not black people. Further, the number of police interactions which involve violence is minuscule, something like 0.0005%, but once again our perceptions are influenced by the scale of media attention.

[Moonbox]

30 minutes ago, Argus said:

Yes, police kill black people in a greater statistical number than their proportion in the general population but blacks commit crimes in a much greater statistical amount than their proportion in the general population. It is criminals, police focus and have violent interactions with, not black people. Further, the number of police interactions which involve violence is minuscule, something like 0.0005%, but once again our perceptions are influenced by the scale of media attention.

"Police interactions" are an irrelevant statistic.  You'd hope that the percentage of violent interactions were low, and it would be low even in a thuggish place like Egypt, where there's 1.5% of the population is made of up police officers. 

When you bring up statistics about the amount of crime committed by black people and then tritely use that to explain away police shootings, you're grossly oversimplifying a much more complicated issue - one with hundreds of years of history worth of economic and social inequality.  I think you know that already.  

Regardless, the argument isn't even that black people get killed by police.  Nobody's arguing against the enforcement of law or the police being able to protect themselves and others.  The argument is that black people are getting killed by the police when they shouldn't be, and that not only are we seeing continued examples of this even in this sensitive environment, but also that we continue to see people dismiss and make excuses for it, particularly the police departments and unions.  

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Shady said:

Your disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.  Yes, the mainstream media is glorifying and supporting this action.  CNN anchor "Who said protests were suppose to be peaceful?".  The hypocrisy of you people is simply stunning.  Especially when compared to the protests in Michigan.  

Okay Shady.  Sure.  I'm intellectually dishonest.  Don't let us stop you from tripping over your own contradictions and bewildering double standards (which Michael conveniently highlighted).  You just keep powering through it.  It your narrow little world, "we people" can all fit into one neat little box for you to argue against.  I'm a hooligan-supporting, Cuomo-loving police-hater...

As for the protests in Michigan, they turned violent the moment people showed up with assault rifles.  Nobody died, obviously, but then who was going to touch that with a ten-foot pole?  The police and authorities correctly saw it for what it was - open intimidation and a tinderbox waiting to blow.  The same sort of calculus is being done with the current protests.  There aren't any clear paths for resolution and we have decades of research to show that riot police and forced suppression is an escalation feedback loop. 

As for the protests, much of the death and violence is on account of opportunistic criminals taking advantage of the anarchy.  Folks are getting killed trying to loot stores and steal cares, and I'm pretty sure NOBODY around here is supporting them, even diarrhea-mouth Cuomo.  

 

[PIK]

2 hours ago, Shady said:

The so-called Michigan idiots didn't break one single law or damage once piece of private or public property.

Yup you are right, But showing up dressed like rambo, I don't think that is what the law makers were thinking.

[Shady]

4 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

I see David Menzies was attacked in the streets again while doing his job by the tolerant Lefties.

 

Another example of the progressive Taliban.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

"Police interactions" are an irrelevant statistic. 

Only if you want to ignore basic logic. The entire evidence that police disproportionately shoot black people is based on statistics. The proponents of this theory  contend that police should only be killing black people in proportion to their numbers in the general population. But that presumes that blacks act the same as whites and Asians and they do not. The black population in the US commits a greatly disproportionate amount of crime. That naturally means police are in Black communities more and interacting with black people more. In short, the police have violent confrontations mostly with criminals. So the 'evidence' that police are attacking black people disproportionately evaporates.

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

When you bring up statistics about the amount of crime committed by black people and then tritely use that to explain away police shootings, you're grossly oversimplifying a much more complicated issue - one with hundreds of years of history worth of economic and social inequality.  I think you know that already.  

And how is THAT relevant? It's certainly relevant as an explanation, or partial one, for why blacks commit so much crime. But it is irrelevant to the question of whether police are shooting down black men for racist reasons. As opposed to shooting them because they're violent criminals.

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Regardless, the argument isn't even that black people get killed by police.  Nobody's arguing against the enforcement of law or the police being able to protect themselves and others.  The argument is that black people are getting killed by the police when they shouldn't be,

No. The argument is they're being killed out of proportion to their numbers, which is 'proof' of systemic racism by police.

Certainly SOME black people are killed when they shouldn't be. Just as some what people are killed when they shouldn't be. Humans are fallible, and with three quarters of a million police with a wide variety of agency policies and training there are bound to be some mistakes. But 14 unarmed black people killed in a  year - and not all of them improperly - is a minuscule number. And it's certainly smaller than the number of whites being killed - properly or not.

 

[WestCanMan]

5 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

I see David Menzies was attacked in the streets again while doing his job by the tolerant Lefties.

Not a big deal. Trudeau hates Rebel Media.

If a CBC reporter or CTV reporter gets that treatment though, it will be considered an all-out assault on democracy by terrorists.

[Independent1986]

 

6 hours ago, Argus said:

And I wonder how many of those people know that BLM leaders are Marxists and want to do away with Capitalism.

I think the chart is real, I know people that never watched politics, intelligent people that you would think they know what critical thinking is that jumped on the revolution trend.

We have a saying back home "You change the people with the TV". When you have 24/7 a video running of the criminal cop, repetition is the key to brainwash and make the sheep think one way. The details became irrelevant that the two knew each other and they had run-ins before. 

Emotion is the tool to divide individuals so you can maintain power but it only works as long as the finances are somewhat stable.

There are a few people on this forum that I suspect as soon as the looting and burning will come too close to their investments or personal business they will reverse course and vote for the first politician that will offer security so let us drop all hypocrisy.

I want to hear from minorities about their experiences and struggles, the more I hear other white people lecturing about racism the more I know they are hiding something. Is called reverse physicology.  

Edited June 23, 2020 by Independent1986

[Argus]

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Shady said:

Another example of the progressive Taliban.

How do you even take yourself seriously when you post garbage like this?  A clownish news agency sends a clownish reporter to pick a fight and get into an argument with some left wing goofs, and THAT proves something?  

I can post videos like that too.  

How do you figure driving your car into protestors and murdering someone compares to getting shoved and egged?  

I"ll eagerly await your reply. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Moonbox

[Shady]

45 minutes ago, Argus said:

Brutal.  F**k BLM.

[OftenWrong]

Bolshevik Lives Matter!

[Independent1986]

and people call me paranoid when I talk about marxists and communists. @eyeball

Hopefully that picture is not some fake news from the right, what is the source ? 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Independent1986

[DogOnPorch]

It's certainly a relief to see that David deserved this treatment because...why was it okay again? Oh yeah...because!

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Only if you want to ignore basic logic. The entire evidence that police disproportionately shoot black people is based on statistics. The proponents of this theory  contend that police should only be killing black people in proportion to their numbers in the general population. But that presumes that blacks act the same as whites and Asians and they do not. The black population in the US commits a greatly disproportionate amount of crime. That naturally means police are in Black communities more and interacting with black people more. In short, the police have violent confrontations mostly with criminals. So the 'evidence' that police are attacking black people disproportionately evaporates.

And how is THAT relevant? It's certainly relevant as an explanation, or partial one, for why blacks commit so much crime. But it is irrelevant to the question of whether police are shooting down black men for racist reasons. As opposed to shooting them because they're violent criminals.

No. The argument is they're being killed out of proportion to their numbers, which is 'proof' of systemic racism by police.

Certainly SOME black people are killed when they shouldn't be. Just as some what people are killed when they shouldn't be. Humans are fallible, and with three quarters of a million police with a wide variety of agency policies and training there are bound to be some mistakes. But 14 unarmed black people killed in a  year - and not all of them improperly - is a minuscule number. And it's certainly smaller than the number of whites being killed - properly or not.

 

I don't know how to break up quotes on this damn forum anymore.  Sorry. 

"Police interaction" is not a reliable or relevant statistic.  The term is excessively vague and the variables behind it far too wide for much useful information to be drawn.  A wealthy community with little crime, for example, may still have a larger police force than a poor community with lots of crime, and the former would be padding its numbers with all sorts brief traffic stops and sleepy-town busy-work while the latter would be operating on a shoe-string budget and having a disproportionate amount of violent crime to respond to.  

Additionally, there's an appalling lack of transparency from the police departments themselves.  Statistics on police shootings in the US are compiled mainly by the media and journalists, because even the FBI has to rely on voluntarily provided (and poorly scrutinized) police records.  The unions have become so powerful at this point that many states won't even allow the sharing disciplinary records between departments, so you can forget about providing any accurate national records. The citizen agencies responsible for overseeing police complaints are also generally underfunded and get little/no cooperation from the folks their reviewing (quelle surprise) so accountability efforts are generally stymied from the start.  

Your logic behind black people committing more crime and therefore being subjective more to police violence works in a vacuum, but it's too simplistic.  There's inherent bias in what you're saying to begin with, and that colors the police's focus and attitude towards communities of colour.  It leads to stricter policing in coloured neighborhoods (and more lax policing in non-colored neighborhoods) which skews the numbers and creates a negative feedback loop.  This makes a community fearful and distrustful of the authorities, which further sours the relationship and frustrates the police officers trying to do their job, and more people end up with criminal records for silly, petty stuff that young white kids in Barrie or Guelph or something would probably get away with.  

There's no easy solution to this, but it's extremely misguided to just condense the argument down to "black people cause more crime and therefore they get shot more."  

and yeah...we get it.  White people get shot too.  We just aren't seeing many videos of white chicks running away and getting gunned down.  I promise I'll be here making the same arguments when that happens.  

 

 

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Not a big deal. Trudeau hates Rebel Media.

Rebel Media is a joke.  The name itself is a farce, and its news standards are equally comical.  

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Moonbox said:

Rebel Media is a joke.  The name itself is a farce, and its news standards are equally comical.  

 

As soon as you deem it okay to attack CERTAIN journalists in the street, we really have turned a corner...

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Your logic behind black people committing more crime and therefore being subjective more to police violence works in a vacuum, but it's too simplistic.  There's inherent bias in what you're saying to begin with, and that colors the police's focus and attitude towards communities of colour.  It leads to stricter policing in coloured neighborhoods (and more lax policing in non-colored neighborhoods) which skews the numbers and creates a negative feedback loop. 

Police resources are placed where crime is the highest. They aren't sent to quiet suburban neighborhoods much because there's not much crime there other than occasional burglaries. But most of the crime they respond to in black communities are due to calls for assistance from black community members. Does that mean they're more likely to notice crimes like drug use while patrolling there? Sure. But they're not creating crimes like rape, robbery and murder. Nor are they overlooking those things in 'white' communities because they're not there to see them. If those crimes were happening they'd be reported and that would draw police. According to New York City crime stats blacks are responsible for roughly half of all crime in the city, including 62% of murders, 66% of robberies and 74% of shootings. There is just no way they are not going to be subjected to a greatly disproportionate amount of police attention, arrests and use of force.

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

and yeah...we get it.  White people get shot too.  We just aren't seeing many videos of white chicks running away and getting gunned down.  I promise I'll be here making the same arguments when that happens. 

You weren't here making those arguments when Justine Damond got gunned down by a black cop in the same city as George Floyd died.

[Argus]

46 minutes ago, Independent1986 said:

and people call me paranoid when I talk about marxists and communists. @eyeball

Hopefully that picture is not some fake news from the right, what is the source ? 

https://www.politicopathy.com/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-founder-an-open-supporter-of-socialist-venezuelan-dictator-maduro/

[WestCanMan]

36 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Rebel Media is a joke.  The name itself is a farce, and its news standards are equally comical.  

Rebel media has it's flaws, but it's still better than CTV and CBC combined. At least they're not outright liars.

[WestCanMan]

40 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I don't know how to break up quotes on this damn forum anymore.  Sorry. 

"Police interaction" is not a reliable or relevant statistic.  The term is excessively vague and the variables behind it far too wide for much useful information to be drawn.  A wealthy community with little crime, for example, may still have a larger police force than a poor community with lots of crime, and the former would be padding its numbers with all sorts brief traffic stops and sleepy-town busy-work while the latter would be operating on a shoe-string budget and having a disproportionate amount of violent crime to respond to.  

Not really more, but more aggressive on certain types of 'crimes'. 

Vagrancy in downtown SF isn't a crime. If you're within 10 blocks of Nancy Pelosi's house it's a crime.

Quote

 The citizen agencies responsible for overseeing police complaints are also generally underfunded and get little/no cooperation from the folks their reviewing (quelle surprise) so accountability efforts are generally stymied from the start.    

In this day and age, with all the cell phones and body cams, it's becoming more and more apparent that police aren't nearly as bad as tey're made out to be.

30 yrs ago we had to believe Ice T and Ice Cube and take their word for all the police brutality and corruption.

Now we get to see what police deal with and how they deal with it and I don't see lots of videos showing police brutality. Resisting arrest is far more common. 

Quote

Your logic behind black people committing more crime and therefore being subjective more to police violence works in a vacuum, but it's too simplistic.  There's inherent bias in what you're saying to begin with, and that colors the police's focus and attitude towards communities of colour.  It leads to stricter policing in coloured neighborhoods (and more lax policing in non-colored neighborhoods) which skews the numbers and creates a negative feedback loop.  This makes a community fearful and distrustful of the authorities, which further sours the relationship and frustrates the police officers trying to do their job, and more people end up with criminal records for silly, petty stuff that young white kids in Barrie or Guelph or something would probably get away with.  

Black people are taught to fear police from a young age. When the slimy ex-POTUS and his bitch wife tell people every day to go out and be mad at police and that "poor little Treyvon looked like me and he was killed for no reason'" they drive home the point that blacks need to resist, be angry, etc. 

For every speech those demonrat losers give, 1,000 young black men resist arrest. Thousands just give up on school because they just believe that whitey ain't gonna give em a fair shake anyways. Might just as well sell drugs.

Quote

There's no easy solution to this, but it's extremely misguided to just condense the argument down to "black people cause more crime and therefore they get shot more."  

and yeah...we get it.  White people get shot too.  We just aren't seeing many videos of white chicks running away and getting gunned down.  I promise I'll be here making the same arguments when that happens.

How many black women got shot running away? Not sure what you're referencing. I recall a white woman in a bathrobe was shot after she herself called the police. 

And- it's not just about "protesting violence when it happens to white people too", it's about not jumping to conclusions like "Brooks is dead 'cause he's black" and 'they'd never treat a white guy like they treated G Floyd". It's obvious bullshit and leads down the wrong path. People get killed for what is most likely to be a lie.

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

I see David Menzies was attacked in the streets again while doing his job by the tolerant Lefties.

 

Yeah I know the statue quite well. It's been grafittied many times over the years. We have a small native activist group here who has done some minor things. They shitstormed a couple of banks in Princess street.

Now all the freaks have reason to come out and pile on for their cause. Anyone who is in any way disaffected. Stupid youth with too much energy, need an outlet to feel like they are changing the world for some good. Doesn't matter if it really does or not, as long as it feels alright...

[OftenWrong]

The way those people behaved is a joke. We heard there was something going on at city park. I told my wife, don't even go don there, there's no point. Just a bunch a hooligans on the loose. If they want to pull it down, I'm not stopping them.

So as you see, we normal people are being silenced out of fear of reprisal.

Edited June 24, 2020 by OftenWrong
removed swearing

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Independent1986 said:

and people call me paranoid when I talk about marxists and communists. @eyeball

 

Hey it's your ideology on display here bud, own it.