Canada is faced with deciding if it's time to end relations with evil China/BRICs?

[Tdot]

Did China's intent with COVID 19, spell the end?

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19186444.2019.1615360?journalCode=rncr20

 

Global competitiveness of BRICS and Canada: implications for business

Mark Kam Loon Loo & Badar Alam Iqbal

Pages 97-108 | Received 03 Mar 2019, Accepted 18 Apr 2019, Published online: 28 May 2019

• Download citation
•  
• https://doi.org/10.1080/19186444.2019.1615360

 

Abstract

Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa (BRICS) has 40 percent of the world population and shares 20 percent of the world’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). This paper seeks to evaluate business opportunities with the BRICS for Canadian businesses through a framework of global competitiveness. Global competitiveness is tracked over a 16-year period to evaluate each nation’s sustainability. Growth trends are compared over four 4-year periods between the BRICS and Canada. The results show nine areas of potential business, and identified China as the most viable partner for a more sustainable growth. The limitations of the study and recommendations for future research are then proposed.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Tdot

[Queenmandy85]

One of the major benifits of globalization is reducing the chances of war by increased economic integration. It also reduces costs which increases disposable income.for consumers.

As for China in particular, they own a vast amount of debt owed by western nations. What do we do if they feel excluded from the global economy and call the debt?

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Queenmandy85

[Rue]

10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

One of the major benifits of globalization is reducing the chances of war by increased economic integration. It also reduces costs which increases disposable income.for consumers.

As for China in particular, they own a vast amount of debt owed by western nations. What do we do if they feel excluded from the global economy and call the debt?

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

 

Honestly I and many others are mad at their government for covering up the virus, allowing webt markets to flourish, flooding the world with cheap goods, hacking, spying, polluting, arresting innocent Canadians, being a large cancer.  I am mad at me and all of us looking the other way angry at not criticizing Chinese government policies and boycotting many of its products knowing how they were made by and in toxic conditions.

That said Bruce Lee was a cool dude, and I like Jackie Chan and Jet Li. 

Seriously there are many bad things to say about the Chinese government but irrational bigotry of all Chinese people is not helpful.. All humans are interconnected in terms of spreading and therefore preventing disease.

So I defer to your concern as to any irrational impulses but I reserve the right to loath many of their government policies.

As for that bafoon in the Philippines that is another topic. Hey Mandy  I can not stand anyone..except you..

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Rue

[Tdot]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

 

...or...

 

Why are some people on this site so, forgiving, of China's disregard for its fellow non-BRICs humans?  For example, have you checked to see how BRICs nations got hit by COVID 19 ---or do you not find it peculiar?

 

Quote

One of the major benifits of globalization is reducing the chances of war by increased economic integration. It also reduces costs which increases disposable income.for consumers.

True.

Altho the globalization efforts we live in have taken on more evil traits than you listed here. Assimilation is a dangerous one, for example, when it is a requirement of economic integration ---assimilation which targets the excluding of certain members from a society's progress.  I think it's called fascism at that point. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Tdot

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

One of the major benifits of globalization is reducing the chances of war by increased economic integration. It also reduces costs which increases disposable income.for consumers.

As for China in particular, they own a vast amount of debt owed by western nations. What do we do if they feel excluded from the global economy and call the debt?

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

 

Not sure globalization reduces any chance of military conflict, if anything it has increased it, to the point that a lot of nations are reinvesting into their militaries, or transforming them from fighting on the European theater, to more pacific region , hence why the marines just announced they are getting rid of tanks and some of their aircraft, deemed unsuitable for island hoping campaign, all geared towards china to counter its aggression around the Pacific.

China which is seen as the new threat not only for the US/UK, but all of NATO, and other defensive pacts we belong to such as the ABCAZ (America, Britian , Canada, Australia, New Zealand) in fact there is a major military policies update in many nations military's, .. Australia along with other western nations revamping and expanding their navy forces, all in deterrence against china...Britain doing the same thing.

Yes all the western nations are dependent on china as a key component in all of our economies, but that does not indicate a decrease in military tensions. 

Yes, having goods built in China is cheaper, but that is our greed kicking in, for both sides, our companies want to make more money by using cheap labor, , consumers want to save money...regardless of the cost to those actions.. Such as loss of jobs here in Canada , loss of control over there products, loss of pricing control, trade secrets , tech secrets,  as well ,seen clearly today, when China just redirected goods made by North American companies based in China and used them for China , leaving the rest of the world scrambling for sources of supply. 

[Tdot]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure globalization reduces any chance of military conflict, if anything it has increased it, to the point that a lot of nations are reinvesting into their militaries, or transforming them from fighting on the European theater, to more pacific region , hence why the marines just announced they are getting rid of tanks and some of their aircraft, deemed unsuitable for island hoping campaign, all geared towards china to counter its aggression around the Pacific.

China which is seen as the new threat not only for the US/UK, but all of NATO, and other defensive pacts we belong to such as the ABCAZ (America, Britian , Canada, Australia, New Zealand) in fact there is a major military policies update in many nations military's, .. Australia along with other western nations revamping and expanding their navy forces, all in deterrence against china...Britain doing the same thing.

Yes all the western nations are dependent on china as a key component in all of our economies, but that does not indicate a decrease in military tensions. 

Yes, having goods built in China is cheaper, but that is our greed kicking in, for both sides, our companies want to make more money by using cheap labor, , consumers want to save money...regardless of the cost to those actions.. Such as loss of jobs here in Canada , loss of control over there products, loss of pricing control, trade secrets , tech secrets,  as well ,seen clearly today, when China just redirected goods made by North American companies based in China and used them for China , leaving the rest of the world scrambling for sources of supply. 

Niiice.

[Right To Left]

9 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

One of the major benifits of globalization is reducing the chances of war by increased economic integration. It also reduces costs which increases disposable income.for consumers.

As for China in particular, they own a vast amount of debt owed by western nations. What do we do if they feel excluded from the global economy and call the debt?

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

 

I have never bought into this neoliberal argument that trade and economic integration makes the world more peaceful. It sure as hell doesn't explain how World War One blew up in 1914, between the number one empire and the rising empire of the time - Germany, who were large and major trading partners at the time. 

Aside from that, this warmongering against China today, which is based on made up disease transmission and other narratives, it owes more to Trump and his Administration's need to shift blame and attention from their spectacular failure to deal with the pandemic and the damage to their credibility they face as quarantining and other efforts to deal with the crisis take their toll on the US economy. 

Starting a major war both-- shifts attention somewhere else and provides the opportunity for instant economic growth .....for the arms industries if nothing else! 

Would they risk it? All bets are off. But, considering that Fox News and especially Tucker Carlson's show are influences on Trump and his primary source of information, I'd be prepared for the next big war!

Edited April 8, 2020 by Right To Left

[Right To Left]

8 hours ago, Tdot said:

...or...

 

Why are some people on this site so, forgiving, of China's disregard for its fellow non-BRICs humans?  For example, have you checked to see how BRICs nations got hit by COVID 19 ---or do you not find it peculiar?

I find it peculiar you don't seem to be aware of publicly available data  that the BRICs nations have much lower numbers of Covid infections and fewer deaths than the US and Europe. Compare them with US, UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain:

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

[Tdot]

33 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

... the BRICs nations have much lower numbers of Covid infections ...

Exactly!!

Yes you put the cart before the horse and now I get to, Thank you, for solidifying my stance here re China's evil onto non-BRICs humans.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Tdot

[Rue]

Sino-Soviet relations appear strained at the moment  both on this forum and over oil prices China does not want to pay Russia.  You boys need to speak to Joe about who to sell your oil too...Donald is too busy blowing up his Navy.

[WestCanMan]

China and India have almost 2.8 Billion. The other countries have 1/7th of that between the 3 of them.

Saying that those 5 countries are 40% of the earth's population is like saying that Quebec, BC and Flin Flon MB account for 33% of Canada's land mass. I don't see the point of grouping the big 2 with the small 3. They're on different continents, they are extremely different governments with different types of economies.... It's so random.

[bush_cheney2004]

36 minutes ago, Rue said:

Sino-Soviet relations appear strained at the moment  both on this forum and over oil prices China does not want to pay Russia.  You boys need to speak to Joe about who to sell your oil too...Donald is too busy blowing up his Navy.

 

Canada's relations were far worse because of Trudeau.   Don't even ask about the negative impact of oil prices and who you sell "your oil" to.

[xul]

12 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

Because they are pure British blood racists....LOL.....I guess most of them are Chinese, I mean those who believe they are something else.

[Moonlight Graham]

8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure globalization reduces any chance of military conflict, if anything it has increased it, to the point that a lot of nations are reinvesting into their militaries, or transforming them from fighting on the European theater, to more pacific region , hence why the marines just announced they are getting rid of tanks and some of their aircraft, deemed unsuitable for island hoping campaign, all geared towards china to counter its aggression around the Pacific.

China which is seen as the new threat not only for the US/UK, but all of NATO, and other defensive pacts we belong to such as the ABCAZ (America, Britian , Canada, Australia, New Zealand) in fact there is a major military policies update in many nations military's, .. Australia along with other western nations revamping and expanding their navy forces, all in deterrence against china...Britain doing the same thing.

Yes all the western nations are dependent on china as a key component in all of our economies, but that does not indicate a decrease in military tensions. 

Yes, having goods built in China is cheaper, but that is our greed kicking in, for both sides, our companies want to make more money by using cheap labor, , consumers want to save money...regardless of the cost to those actions.. Such as loss of jobs here in Canada , loss of control over there products, loss of pricing control, trade secrets , tech secrets,  as well ,seen clearly today, when China just redirected goods made by North American companies based in China and used them for China , leaving the rest of the world scrambling for sources of supply. 

I think trade with China does provide incentive for China and the West to not fight each other.  At the same time it's making China much more powerful and more able to fight us militarily.

[eyeball]

14 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

As for China in particular, they own a vast amount of debt owed by western nations. What do we do if they feel excluded from the global economy and call the debt?

What do China's dictators do if we tell them to piss up a rope we're compensating our citizens and rebuilding our economy instead of paying them back?

 

Quote

Why are some people on this site so antagonistic towards China, yet not the Phillipines or Brazil?

China government is a ruthless brutal dictator, the most powerful one on the planet.

Edited April 9, 2020 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

25 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What do China's dictators do if we tell them to piss up a rope we're compensating our citizens and rebuilding our economy instead of paying them back?

 

China would just sell off Canadian debt instruments to a global market that has many other buyers.

Canada's dollar would dip lower in peso value.

Any actual default would have far more serious consequences for Canada, not China.

 

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

China would just sell off Canadian debt instruments to a global market that has many other buyers.

Canada's dollar would dip lower in peso value.

Any actual default would have far more serious consequences for Canada, not China.

 

What if the US does it first and everyone follows you? 

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What if the US does it first and everyone follows you? 

 

Doesn't matter....same thing would happen....U.S. debt is very desirable and would be gobbled up by global markets (private and public).

Holding some foreign debt is actually necessary for monetary and trade reasons.

Riskier debt just returns higher interest or coupon rate in the case of bonds.

Edited April 9, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Doesn't matter....same thing would happen....U.S. debt is very desirable and would be gobbled up by global markets (private and public).

I have a hard time believing the US wouldn't just shrug it forward and tell the world the same will apply to anyone who buys that debt.  You know the drill, whoever's not with you is...yadda yadda.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I have a hard time believing the US wouldn't just shrug it forward and tell the world the same will apply to anyone who buys that debt.  You know the drill, whoever's not with you is...yadda yadda.

 

Well, that's just not how global debt markets work.    The U.S. has more influence, but only because of dollar hegemony and stability, not games of "shrug".

China dumped almost $200 billion of U.S. debt several years ago and it hardly made a ripple.   Others just gladly snapped it up.

Remember, China also wants to play currency games for domestic and international reasons that relies on debt markets being stable.

If anything, the reverse is true, as the U.S. (Eisenhower) threatened the UK with financial collapse by selling pound sterling bonds in 1956 (Suez Crisis).

China just doesn't have that kind of leverage...yet.

 

[eyeball]

41 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Well, that's just not how global debt markets work.

Well, maybe in the Before Times but what about after the Between Times we're in now?

Quote

The U.S. has more influence, but only because of dollar hegemony and stability, not games of "shrug".

China dumped almost $200 billion of U.S. debt several years ago and it hardly made a ripple.   Others just gladly snapped it up.

Remember, China also wants to play currency games for domestic and international reasons that relies on debt markets being stable.

If anything, the reverse is true, as the U.S. (Eisenhower) threatened the UK with financial collapse by selling pound sterling bonds in 1956 (Suez Crisis).

China just doesn't have that kind of leverage...yet.

All the more reason to shrug while the shrugging is good then - especially with the price of having allowed China to acquire so much manufacturing and supply leverage over everyone fresh in everyone's mind.

Who would do that to us anyway?  I know the stock answer is that consumers demanded to be replaced by cheaper labourers but I'm willing to bet consumers are willing to revisit the wisdom of having done that. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Well, maybe in the Before Times but what about after the Between Times we're in now.

 

The world has been floating on a sea of debt for generations....even more so now post pandemic.

 

Quote

All the more reason to shrug while the shrugging is good then - especially with the price of having allowed China to acquire so much manufacturing and supply leverage over everyone fresh in everyone's mind.

 

Well, debt and trade are two very different things, loosely related to currency valuations and foreign debt held.   In general, you don't want debtor nations to fail and default on their debt.   Wishing Canada would fail just to punish China is not a good strategy.

 

Quote

Who would do that to us anyway?  I know the stock answer is that consumers demanded to be replaced by cheaper labourers but I'm willing to bet consumers are willing to revisit the wisdom of having done that. 

 

It's more complicated than that.  China promised access to the largest potential market in the world in exchange for playing ball.

China is no longer just a pool of cheap labour, and is hell bent on moving to the top of the food chain.    So far, they are on plan.

[Tdot]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

What if the US does it first and everyone follows you? 

;-)

[Tdot]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...China also wants to play currency games for domestic and international reasons that relies on debt markets being stable...

 

True, true indeed.  Exact reason Obama left the campaign trail, in Aug'08, to run back to his WashDC office for a minute/penned a letter to President Bush begging him to launch a trade war against China.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Tdot

[Queenmandy85]

The result of Canada and / or the US failing to honour their obligations regarding debt repayment would bring about a total collapse of the economy. We are already getting into perilous territory with the current need to support our economies during the Covid-19 crisis. China has helped a lot of countries that we have distanced ourselves from because we didn't like them. China basically owns them and we depend on the resourses they produce. 

China is a leader in the developement of LIFTR reactors. We should be working with them. 

Xi is ruthless indeed but while you judge him, remember Mao and Stalin. What was Xi's experience in the cultural revolution?

President Bolsonaro of Brazil poses a great threat to us, over the long term. He is just as ruthless as Xi. Then there are people like Kim and Duterte. You must never chose your allies because they are nice people. Allies are nations who will give you leverage and an edge. In 1941 - 1945, one of our closest allies was Stalin's USSR. 

In previous posts, there has been discussion of military confrontation. China is a major nuclear power. We cannot have a confrontation between nuclear armed nations.