The Coronavirus

[dialamah]

21 minutes ago, Boges said:

OK. 
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

I'm guessing these are the wrong experts.  

[OftenWrong]

43 minutes ago, Boges said:

OK. 
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
 

 

Yeah I can come up with plenty of those. It doesn't matter. Read what I said to get my point, don't project your fears on me, as if I said something else.

[OftenWrong]

21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I'm guessing these are the wrong experts.  

No, you are just not understanding my message. That is all.

You and Boges have made out what I said to mean something else entirely.

 

I said the masks, especially "a towel over your face" meanining home made, are not effective. I said they are not a substitute for social distancing  because of that.

And I have already explained this to you before, there should be no need for me to reiterate. Since masks are sub-standard, they are not an excuse to drop social distancing. Yet that is clearly what I see and what the impulse will be for people who do not understand these things well. Most people.

So now, you go and guess all you want, about whatever you want.

 

[dialamah]

An interesting side-effect of the pandemic  - a noticeable drop in premature births.  A widespread phenomenon as yet unexplained, significantly fewer babies were born early during the first few months of lockdowns in several countries.  Speculation that pregnant women able to remain home and rest more, less exposure to all diseses, lower pollution levels and fewer inductions may have contributed to this reduction. More study is needed. 

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

And I have already explained this to you before,

And its been explained to you, multiple times by multiple people, including cites by experts, that masks help reduce the spread of Covid.  As poor as they may be, they help.  Here's a story about that:  two symptomatic hairdressers continued working while they waited for test results.  Together, they served 139 customers, everybody wearing masks, and no secondary infections were reported.  

Nobody is claiming masking is a perfect solution, but it helps and objecting to  because its not a perfect solution is a weak argument. 

Bottom line is that we'd all be less likely to catch and spread this virus if most of us used masks when in closed public spaces.  

[OftenWrong]

46 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Bottom line is that we'd all be less likely to catch and spread this virus if most of us used masks when in closed public spaces.  

That is not how things are done in the real world of safety. When a piece of PPE becomes more of a hazard than a benefit, it becomes questionable whether it should be used. Only as a last resort, when other, better means are not available.

Again,  I have already been over this with you and explained my position. Yet you never answered my question. You had no reply, after I posted the technical information from Dr. Evans at KGH. 

On 7/12/2020 at 9:27 AM, OftenWrong said:

If a person has coronavirus and goes outdoors wearing a mask that is not N95, do you now feel safe being within less than 2 metres of this person?

The link and info were already provided.

Edited July 20, 2020 by OftenWrong

[dialamah]

Hopeful news.  An effective vaccine may have been developed; early human trials show good immune results with few side effects.  Next step is administering the vaccine to 10,000 people in the UK, and 30,000 in the US.  Researchers hope to have results by the end of the year.

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Again,  I have already been over this with you and explained my position.

So?  I'm not your student and bound to accept what you say.  

16 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Yet you never answered my question.

What question?

16 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You had no reply, 

Chose not to reply; my posting is not dictated by what you think is due to you.  

25 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

after I posted the technical information from Dr. Evans at KGH.

Dr Evans is one person; why would I take the word of one expert over what several equally or even more qualified experts are saying?  That path leads to the idiocy of an anti-vaxxer.

The benefit of masks has been known for quite some time: this study is from 2008, and aggregates a bunch of studies with the conclusion that easy and cheap interventions - hand washing, mask wearing, physical distancing - all slowed the transmission of respiratory illnesses.  The study also separated the efficacy of N95 masks from other types of masks.

Your argument against masks is pretty weak.  

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

So?  I'm not your student and bound to accept what you say.  

What question?

Chose not to reply; my posting is not dictated by what you think is due to you.  

Dr Evans is one person; why would I take the word of one expert over what several equally or even more qualified experts are saying?  That path leads to the idiocy of an anti-vaxxer.

The benefit of masks has been known for quite some time: this study is from 2008, and aggregates a bunch of studies with the conclusion that easy and cheap interventions - hand washing, mask wearing, physical distancing - all slowed the transmission of respiratory illnesses.  The study also separated the efficacy of N95 masks from other types of masks.

Your argument against masks is pretty weak.  

Sorry but none of the above addresses my comments in this part of the thread. Your reply is weak.

[OftenWrong]

And that latest exchange is exactly my point. None of you can address the truth, even if given the chance repeatedly. Just a bunch of flies making noise.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

A person's lack of awareness doesn't equal media incompetence.

It does if one reads a lot of media. 

Of course, it doesn't if one doesn't bother to follow the news.

[Boges]

14 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

And that latest exchange is exactly my point. None of you can address the truth, even if given the chance repeatedly. Just a bunch of flies making noise.

The truth about what? That you deny the clear evidence that masks are helpful in reducing COVID-19? 

Welcome to the wrong side of history on this. Even 45 has been dragged kicking and screaming into supporting masks. 

[OftenWrong]

26 minutes ago, Boges said:

The truth about what? That you deny the clear evidence that masks are helpful in reducing COVID-19? 

Welcome to the wrong side of history on this. Even 45 has been dragged kicking and screaming into supporting masks. 

No, you cannot move the goal posts on me. This ain't about Trump. WHat I said are not my wods, they are the words of immunology experts. I do not make anything up.

The fact that you do not understand my message is not my problem. I have provided the technical evidence. Your rebuttal is merely emotional and confused.

[Boges]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

No, you cannot move the goal posts on me. This ain't about Trump. WHat I said are not my wods, they are the words of immunology experts. I do not make anything up.

The fact that you do not understand my message is not my problem. I have provided the technical evidence. Your rebuttal is merely emotional and confused.

And technical evidence has been provided to contradict your narrative, that you immediately disregard. 

You're the one being disingenuous. 

No one is saying Social Distancing should be stopped. But when it's impossible, masks are good too. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

Just now, Boges said:

And technical evidence has been provided to contradict your narrative, that you immediately disregard.

No, all that was provided shows that "masks are helpful" It does not address the specific techncal issue I described.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

No, all that was provided shows that "masks are helpful" It does not address the specific techncal issue I described.

That Social Distancing is still required? No one is disputing that. But that doesn't mean that masks aren't helpful. 

I think one of the thing that's going to save the places that are seeing huge spikes right now is the fact that people are being forced to wear masks. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

Just now, Boges said:

I think one of the thing that's going to save the places that are seeing huge spikes right now is the fact that people are being forced to wear masks. 

No, I disagree. We went without masks and we beat the curve without them. Because Social Distancing. I resurrect my comments from months ago- places like the grocery, all clerks working every day at the height of the outbreak. Masks were used somewhat, but not very much. In the stores around here, only a few workers wore them and most did not.

Where is the outbreak among this specific group There are stores everywhere in Canada, all operated this way at  tme when the virus outbreak was peaking.

The curve flattened, the number of deaths dwindled toward zero. All this, sans the mandatory face covering edict.

 

In my workplace now the mask presents a bigger threat. We were social distancing without masks. Now there is a false sense of security. We are even told, if we cannot work apart we should wear a face covering. Just that, any covering.

Now as I said before, you are working in a small room all day with a coworker, and you must sit side-by-side. He has the coronavirus without symptoms, but at a highly infectious stage and is unaware. He has a home-made "face covering".

Go ahead, tell me if you would work there beside him all day, every day in that small room, for hours. You get to wear a home-made mask.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

No, I disagree. We went without masks and we beat the curve without them. Because Social Distancing. I resurrect my comments from months ago- places like the grocery, all clerks working every day at the height of the outbreak. Masks were used somewhat, but not very much. In the stores around here, only a few workers wore them and most did not.

That's happened because people were told to stay home. Many were forced to stay home because the government mandated their job as unessential. People were even told not to see family and friends. We're just now starting to see most businesses allowed to re-open in Ontario. But even then, when indoors, you have to social distance. 

Going to the grocery store was an ordeal of long lines. It was rather harrowing actually. 

I'd rather wear a mask that go back to that reality. 

What seems clear is that these outbreaks happen indoors. Restaurants, bars, salons, gyms etc. So masks certainly help. 

[dialamah]

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The fact that you do not understand my message is not my problem

Generally speaking, the communicator is responsible for ensuring their audience understands their message,  so your lack of clarity is your problem and not ours.   

Your point seems to be that masks are not helpful enough to be in widespread use, and/or that that widespread use will cause more harm than good.  If that's not your contention, then please explain what your point is.

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It does not address the specific techncal issue I described.

Despite the technical issues you believe exist, most studies demonstrate that masks are helpful in  reducing the spread of disease, along with social distancing and handwashing.  You choose to believe otherwise, fine, you do you.  Masks are not mandatory most places in Canada, so its pretty likely you don't have to wear one, unless local businesses you frequent are enforcing mask use.  

[OftenWrong]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Despite the technical issues you believe exist, most studies demonstrate that masks are helpful in  reducing the spread of disease, along with social distancing and handwashing.

The technical issues exist, they are described by experts not me. Maybe you can write an email to Gerald Evans and complain.

You have missed the point once again, as evidenced by your obtuse reply.

 

[Cannucklehead]

Masks are helpful, BUT-

 

N95 masks are called that because they filter out 95% of particles.  They also do not cover your eyes at all which can lead to infection. 

 

Masks are great but not the only solution.  I haven't worn a mask at all until I went for groceries last night only because they are now mandatory and I have not had an infection.  

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Cannucklehead said:

Masks are helpful, BUT-

 

N95 masks are called that because they filter out 95% of particles.  They also do not cover your eyes at all which can lead to infection. 

 

Masks are great but not the only solution.  I haven't worn a mask at all until I went for groceries last night only because they are now mandatory and I have not had an infection.  

Note that the virus transmits through water droplets. And masks can prevent that. 

[Cannucklehead]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

Note that the virus transmits through water droplets. And masks can prevent that. 

I wouldn't use the word prevent, that is very misleading.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7301882/

We show that the use of masks will reduce the airborne droplet transmission and will also protect the wearer from the droplets expelled from other subjects. However, many droplets still spread around and away from the cover, cumulatively, during cough cycles. Therefore, the use of a mask does not provide complete protection, and social distancing remains important during a pandemic.

 

What they dont mention is that basic hygiene is also important to keep in mind, but personally I am very thorough before I leave my house and once again when I return.  

[OftenWrong]

22 minutes ago, Cannucklehead said:

What they dont mention is that basic hygiene is also important to keep in mind, but personally I am very thorough before I leave my house and once again when I return.  

Sounds like you have a very reasonable attitude towards managing your risk of infection. Knowledge is power.

[Cannucklehead]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Sounds like you have a very reasonable attitude towards managing your risk of infection. Knowledge is power.

It's funny you mention that.  A while ago I had to explain to someone about the 1918 pandemic, and that people survived lockdowns and mask wearing while many of them did not have electricity or cars.   We have so much today. 

 

If I had the chance I'd slap all those people whining about the restrictions.