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Will it be the virus that takes Trump down?


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1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

It's getting hard to find links to quotes which attacked Trump's travel ban on China. I'm glad that I posted the video of our village idiot speaking against travel bans back on March 16th. I have no doubt that will get harder to find as time goes on.

But look what’s happening now in China.  The Chinese are discriminating against foreigners as importers of the virus.  New York’s cases likely came from Europe, which did come originally from China.  The travel ban was one policy, but it was insufficient to the task of protecting public health.  Only early social distancing, quarantining of travellers, and self-isolation of the symptomatic and positive (now extended to most of the population) have been effective at reducing the spread.  Trump was late in the game on those measures.  

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9 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Weak, arbitrary travel bans are completely useless. It's like making a dyke out of chain link fence. If you're serious,  you suspend all international travel and put everyone coming in in quarantine for 2 weeks. 

Only a few countries responded appropriately and the U.S. and Canada aren't among them.

Most countries responded well, despite not be prepared.  Countries could better have prepared if China had been up front from the beginning.

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1 minute ago, BubberMiley said:

Weak, arbitrary travel bans are completely useless. It's like making a dyke out of chain link fence. If you're serious,  you suspend all international travel and put everyone coming in in quarantine for 2 weeks. 

Only a few countries responded appropriately and the U.S. and Canada aren't among them.

That's by far the weakest, dumbest argument ever made in the history of the planet.

At the point in time that we are talking about, there was just as much reason for banning domestic flights between NYC and Seattle as there was for banning int'l flights from places like Holland or Botswana. 

There were thousands of confirmed cases in China, which means that there were tens of thousands of unconfirmed cases in China. The rest of the world was just getting screwed over at that point.

You could make the case that a Chinese travel ban was weeks late, but there would have been literally zero consensus for a travel ban on Jan 1st, 8th, 15th, or even the 22nd. There was still a chance that Covid would turn out to be not-so-deadly, then the travel ban would be a farce, and Trump would have embarrassed the US (not quite as badly as Trudeau does Canada, on a regular basis, but I digress) and done massive damage to China-US relations. 

I'll reiterate - that's by far the weakest, dumbest argument ever made in the history of the planet.

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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

But look what’s happening now in China.  The Chinese are discriminating against foreigners as importers of the virus.  New York’s cases likely came from Europe, which did come originally from China.  The travel ban was one policy, but it was insufficient to the task of protecting public health.  Only early social distancing, quarantining of travellers, and self-isolation of the symptomatic and positive (now extended to most of the population) have been effective at reducing the spread.  Trump was late in the game on those measures.  

He was late in the game, but earlier than most, including our Prime Minister.

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9 minutes ago, Shady said:

He was late in the game, but earlier than most, including our Prime Minister.

Earlier with travel bans on two countries.  It was insufficient and does smack a bit of preferential treatment because Europe got a pass for longer (likely the origin of the current epidemic in New York) and for a little while longer, so did Britain.  The bigger issue has been how the domestic population is reducing the spread.  It’s mostly about public health policy.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Earlier with travel bans on two countries.  It was insufficient and does smack a bit of preferential treatment because Europe got a pass for longer (likely the origin of the current epidemic in New York) and for a little while longer, so did Britain.  The bigger issue has been how the domestic population is reducing the spread.  It’s mostly about public health policy.  

The reason travel from China was restricted first is because they were first with the virus.  Europe had not been infected to the extent they were a month later.  But yes, in hindsight, restrictions from both at the same time would’ve been best.

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14 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

 

I'll reiterate - that's by far the weakest, dumbest argument ever made in the history of the planet.

What's dumb? The argument that arbitrary travel bans don't work? Wouldn't the current situation be proof enough for you? 

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2 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

What's dumb? The argument that arbitrary travel bans don't work? Wouldn't the current situation be proof enough for you? 

There was nothing arbitrary about the travel restrictions.  And of course they work to some extent.  It’s another way of practicing mitigation, the furthest end of social distancing.  Don’t let your hatred for Trump get in the way of logic and reason.  

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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

New York’s cases likely came from Europe, which did come originally from China.  

If the majority of US cases came from Europe then that's actual proof that the China travel ban worked. Thanks Zeitgeist.

It means that there was a generational buffer or two between carriers from China getting the virus into the US.

IE, people couldn't get from China to the US, so the virus had to take the long way. People from China flew to Eng or other countries, infected them, and then infected travellers from Eng started showing up in the US.

That put the virus's entry into the US behind by precious time. The time between when the virus initially got to the US and the time when social distancing guidelines started coming into effect was critical, and the Chinese travel ban (according to your quote) helped to slow the spread of the virus into the US. 

Can I get the link that proves your theory? 

Quote

The travel ban was one policy, but it was insufficient to the task of protecting public health.  Only early social distancing, quarantining of travellers, and self-isolation of the symptomatic and positive (now extended to most of the population) have been effective at reducing the spread.  Trump was late in the game on those measures.  

Trump was ahead of the game on travel bans, which by your own admission slowed the entry of the virus into the US, and his social distancing measures came into effect when ours did.

The US also did actual screening of passengers at the airport which is something that we never did at all, for the whole time that int'l travel was allowed into Canada. I know people who flew into YVR and they just waltzed through customs without a question about covid.

I know that - just because Canada sucked way worse than the US did - doesn't get Trump a free pass, but he was far ahead of what the MSM in Canada and the US was advising, what the Dems were advising, what the WHO was advising, and what Canada was advising/doing. 

He's like a covid rock star.

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10 minutes ago, Shady said:

There was nothing arbitrary about the travel restrictions.  And of course they work to some extent.  It’s another way of practicing mitigation, the furthest end of social distancing.  Don’t let your hatred for Trump get in the way of logic and reason.  

Cutting off travel from Europe but not the UK is arbitrary. And useless, as proven by the number of U.S. cases today.

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26 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Cutting off travel from Europe but not the UK is arbitrary. And useless, as proven by the number of U.S. cases today.

No, that’s not arbitrary either.  But yes, in hindsight a total ban would be been much better.  But no, you’d have to suspend all logic to suggest that they’re useless.  There’d be even more cases of the virus had hundreds of thousands of people from infected countries been allowed to travel to the United States.  In March and April.

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6 minutes ago, Shady said:

 There’d be even more cases of the virus had hundreds of thousands of people from infected countries been allowed to travel to the United States.  In March and April.

Given numbers indicate the U.S. is the worst shitshow on the planet in terms of the propagation of this virus so far, and Canada is mainly suffering because of its proximity to that shitshow, it's hard to imagine it could have been more poorly managed. But yes, perhaps it could have been.

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58 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

What's dumb? The argument that arbitrary travel bans don't work? Wouldn't the current situation be proof enough for you? 

Here's an analogy for you.

Fire breaks out at the exact same time in two buildings in different cities. In both buildings, the majority of people run out of the rooms they're in without closing windows or doors behind them. The managers of both buildings took all the exact same precautions, they both do almost everything the same, but in Building A the manager opens a halon fire extinguisher and throws it into the room with the fire, closes the door to that room, pulls the fire alarm,  exits by the stairs, and closes the front door to the building when he leaves. The manager from the Building B just runs out leaving the doors and windows open, doesn't pull the fire alarm or take any measures to slow the progress of the fire, but he closes the front door when he leaves.

At the end of the day, the building manager who took the least precautions criticizes the other manager for pulling the fire alarm and throwing the fire extinguisher into the room. The one who actually did something right takes the most heat. In both buildings, people were killed.

Bubber Miley: "Mgr B is RIGHT!!! Using the Halon fire extinguisher was idiotic! Why didn't Mgr A check the other rooms to make sure they were empty? Why didn't he take more precautions to prevent fires? Why weren't there more sprinklers in Building A!!! Manager A SUCKS!!!!"

WCM: "They both took the exact same precautions, the fires started for the exact same reasons. Both buildings had the exact same sprinkler system. Putting the Halon fire extinguisher into the room didn't stop the fire completely, but it definitely slowed it down compared to doing nothing and leaving the door open. Neither checked the other rooms to make sure they were empty. What exactly did Mgr B do better than Mgr A?"

Bubber: "Mgr A closed the front door, and THE HALON THAT MGR B USED DIDN'T PUT OUT THE FIRE!!!!"

WCM: "They both closed the front door. What exactly did Mgr B do better than Mgr A?"

Bubber: "Mgr A closed the front door, and THE HALON THAT MGR B USED DIDN'T PUT OUT THE FIRE!!!!"

WCM: "They both closed the front door. What exactly did Mgr B do better than Mgr A?"

Bubber: "Mgr A closed the front door, and THE HALON THAT MGR B USED DIDN'T PUT OUT THE FIRE!!!!"

WCM: "Yeah ok Bubber, whatever you say."

Edited by WestCanMan
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45 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

Given numbers indicate the U.S. is the worst shitshow on the planet in terms of the propagation of this virus so far, and Canada is mainly suffering because of its proximity to that shitshow, it's hard to imagine it could have been more poorly managed. But yes, perhaps it could have been.

No, that’s incorrect.  Given the numbers, infections could be multiples worse if infected peoples were allowed to enter the country.  Or are you suggesting that travel from Europe and China should resume?

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24 minutes ago, Shady said:

No, that’s incorrect.  Given the numbers, infections could be multiples worse if infected peoples were allowed to enter the country.  Or are you suggesting that travel from Europe and China should resume?

I'm saying that arguing that the chain link held back some of the water is kind of pointless when the water is spreading everywhere anyway.

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3 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

I'm saying that arguing that the chain link held back some of the water is kind of pointless when the water is spreading everywhere anyway.

So are you advocating for opening up travel now from Europe and China?  I mean what’s the problem if restrictions don’t accomplish anything right?

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20 minutes ago, BubberMiley said:

I said inadequate and arbitrary restrictions don't work and I can prove it. If there was a pandemic plan, things would have been locked down properly earlier. Unfortunately the pandemic response team was disbanded because Obama!

So again, does that mean you’re advocating for a reopening of travel?  Since those arbitrary restrictions don’t work.

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11 minutes ago, Shady said:

So again, does that mean you’re advocating for a reopening of travel?  Since those arbitrary restrictions don’t work.

No, there have been harsher travel restrictions implemented since and they appear to be helping.

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2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

If the majority of US cases came from Europe then that's actual proof that the China travel ban worked. Thanks Zeitgeist.

It means that there was a generational buffer or two between carriers from China getting the virus into the US.

IE, people couldn't get from China to the US, so the virus had to take the long way. People from China flew to Eng or other countries, infected them, and then infected travellers from Eng started showing up in the US.

That put the virus's entry into the US behind by precious time. The time between when the virus initially got to the US and the time when social distancing guidelines started coming into effect was critical, and the Chinese travel ban (according to your quote) helped to slow the spread of the virus into the US. 

Can I get the link that proves your theory? 

Trump was ahead of the game on travel bans, which by your own admission slowed the entry of the virus into the US, and his social distancing measures came into effect when ours did.

The US also did actual screening of passengers at the airport which is something that we never did at all, for the whole time that int'l travel was allowed into Canada. I know people who flew into YVR and they just waltzed through customs without a question about covid.

I know that - just because Canada sucked way worse than the US did - doesn't get Trump a free pass, but he was far ahead of what the MSM in Canada and the US was advising, what the Dems were advising, what the WHO was advising, and what Canada was advising/doing. 

He's like a covid rock star.

What?  No.  Trump was cavalier about public health measures for too long.  He’s on the Covid job now..  The travel ban was a good safety measure, but not enough other measures were taken early enough, especially on testing and social distancing.  I don’t think Trump is personally responsible for all that.  Actually, when you listen to the directives from the Surgeon General, he’s only asking people over 65 and people with health conditions to practice health measures that we’ve been asked to do country-wide for at least two weeks.  Too little too late.  It’s bizarre not to seem to notice that New York State has more cases than any country outside the US.  WTF!   It’s like other parts of the US didn’t get the memo.  

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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  It’s bizarre not to seem to notice that New York State has more cases than any country outside the US.  WTF!   It’s like other parts of the US didn’t get the memo.  

 

More confirmed cases...it all depends on the level of testing in the U.S. and around the world.

The U.S. has reported over 2,000,000 completed tests.

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1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

More confirmed cases...it all depends on the level of testing in the U.S. and around the world.

The U.S. has reported over 2,000,000 completed tests.

Yes that’s good.  We’re at about 320,000 tests.  Ontario needs to step up the testing and Ford said so countless times yesterday.  Very important.  

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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes that’s good.  We’re at about 320,000 tests.  Ontario needs to step up the testing and Ford said so countless times yesterday.  Very important.  

 

Quantitatively, the EU has more reported COVID19 deaths and would logically have more cases, known and unknown.   Other deaths are not even being counted from residences...bodies go straight to the crematorium (Italy).

 

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Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Quantitatively, the EU has more reported COVID19 deaths and would logically have more cases, known and unknown.   Other deaths are not even being counted from residences...bodies go straight to the crematorium (Italy).

 

I know.  It’s horrifying.  I also saw the open ditch mass burial on that island in NYC.  We have to prevent surges and get the gear to where the risks are highest.  It’s about procurement, production, distribution, and effective logistics right now.  The public health measures should be at their height right now along with testing.  

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