Boges Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why do I ?....because after 9/11 I discovered Canada's obsession with the United States as many different levels....most Americans have no idea how much Canada presses its nose to the one-way mirror to watch America so intently. Creepy ! So I just return the favour. IOW, it's your pet project to troll Canadians whenever they discuss Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Boges said: We also weren't talking about Diaspora, but here we are. The title of this thread is clear. Bitching about Canadian's obsession with the US doesn't change the debate topic. BC always has lots to say about Canada. It doesn’t bother me. This discussion for me isn’t about national pride. It’s strictly about calling out good and bad policy. The China travel ban was better than not having one, but there was much else that could have been done. Canada has its own failings in this crisis, but that’s not the topic of this thread. Edited April 13, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: The tread is about Trump losing the election over COVID19...why would Canada care 'bout that !!! Because it's an interesting topic to debate. Especially when Canadian Trump fans keep dropping the TDS moniker anytime he's criticized. Perhaps you should be more perplexed why Canadians would go to such great lengths to apologize for an American leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, Boges said: IOW, it's your pet project to troll Canadians whenever they discuss Americans. Sorta....it is my goal to obsess in equal measure to demonstrate how much Canada does this, but in the opposite direction. It is true that if America was not so pervasive here and in other Canadian media, I would have gotten bored long ago and departed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: The China travel ban was better than not having one, but there was much else that could have been done. Canada has its own failings in this crisis, but that’s not the topic of this thread. What bugs me about the China Travel Ban argument is that it's used as a proverbial "Trump" Card. Trump did X therefore he can't be held accountable for Y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: BC always has lots to say about Canada. It doesn’t bother me. This discussion for me isn’t about national pride. It’s strictly about calling out good and bad policy. The China travel ban was better than not having one, but there was much else that could have been done. Canada has its own failings in this crisis, but that’s not the topic of this thread. But I like it when you rear up on your hind legs to proudly defend Canada's honour and winning WW2 before the Americans ever entered the war. Sadly (that's a Canadian term), the Liberal's post national state has purposely bred out patriotism in Canada because it is an ugly Americanism. Trump's re-election prospects is the only game in town to see a real contest of ideologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Boges said: What bugs me about the China Travel Ban argument is that it's used as a proverbial "Trump" Card. Trump did X therefore he can't be held accountable for Y. Trump isn’t held accountable for much. He certainly doesn’t hold himself responsible for much. That may save American democracy in the end, because he hasn’t effectively taken charge or centralized power. He’s left it mostly to the states to take charge in this crisis and is awol in important ways. He still talks too much in press conferences and doesn’t defer enough to the experts, and I do think he will pay for that politically. Trump can be entertaining and he always has a few punchy remarks, but he needs to get out of the way and empower the right people in a non-partisan way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: But I like it when you rear up on your hind legs to proudly defend Canada's honour and winning WW2 before the Americans ever entered the war. Sadly (that's a Canadian term), the Liberal's post national state has purposely bred out patriotism in Canada because it is an ugly Americanism. Trump's re-election prospects is the only game in town to see a real contest of ideologies. What’s worse, Post-National State or America First? Patriotism is fine unless it turns into a zero-sum game and delusions of racial or national supremacy. We have to be specific about successes and failures, because there’s sometimes an ugly underbelly to successes when success for some means failure for others. Some of that is inevitable. Much depends on perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Trump isn’t held accountable for much. He certainly doesn’t hold himself responsible for much. That may save American democracy in the end, because he hasn’t effectively taken charge or centralized power. He’s left it mostly to the states to take charge in this crisis and is awol in important ways. We don't want Trump or any president "centralizing" power by design. That would be unconstitutional overreach. Governors are responsible for their states with federal assistance, when requested. Trump and his admin still have to run many other federal agencies and foreign policy...virus or no virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: What’s worse, Post-National State or America First? Patriotism is fine unless it turns into a zero-sum game and delusions of racial or national supremacy. We have to be specific about successes and failures, because there’s sometimes an ugly underbelly to successes when success for some means failure for others. Some of that is inevitable. Much depends on perspective. No such dilemma for me...I am a nationalist and product of my real world experiences. America First works, not globalism or allies who want a piece of American power for their own partisan motives and failures. President Trump should continue with the good, the bad, and the ugly just as he has for his first term and win or lose re-election doing things his way. If he loses, so what, other U.S. presidents have lost as well. Donald Trump is just another U.S. president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: No such dilemma for me...I am a nationalist and product of my real world experiences. America First works, not globalism or allies who want a piece of American power for their own partisan motives and failures. President Trump should continue with the good, the bad, and the ugly just as he has for his first term and win or lose re-election doing things his way. If he loses, so what, other U.S. presidents have lost as well. Donald Trump is just another U.S. president. That’s where I disagree with you. Bill Gates is commentating right now that ignoring viral spread elsewhere will mean that it’s coming soon to your backyard. The same goes for global emissions, oppressive regimes, extreme poverty, and other problems that are perceived as other people’s problems. It’s the same “I’m alright, Jack” mentality that ignores social problems on the other side of town as long as my place is well-appointed. Whether you like it or not, other people’s problems usually impact you at some point. I’m not saying that government and programs can solve all the world’s problems. People make individual decisions that make their lives better or worse and they always will, but ignoring problems means letting them spread. Other people’s problems are still everyone’s problems. The pandemic illustrates this perfectly. Edited April 13, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: That’s where I disagree with you. Bill Gates is commentating right now that ignoring viral spread elsewhere will mean that it’s coming soon to your backyard. The same goes for global emissions, oppressive regimes, extreme poverty, and other problems that are perceived as other people’s problems. It’s the same “I’m alright, Jack” mentality that ignores social problems on the other side of town as long as my place is well-appointed. You don't understand....the virus and other problems are coming anyway...don't need Bill Gates to explain the obvious. The Gates Foundation is actually more a symptom and manifestation of the wealth disparity problems than any solution. I have lived with the "social problems" since the 1950's and would still prefer America's half filled glass. I do not look to Canada's version of Bill Gates as a guru...do you have one ? Quote Whether you like it or not, other people’s problems usually impact you at some point. I’m not saying that government and programs can solve all the world’s problems. People make individual decisions that make their lives better or worse and they always will, but ignoring problems means letting them spread. Other people’s problems are still everyone’s problems. The pandemic illustrates this perfectly. This is not the world's first or last pandemic. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. America is still the #1 destination in the world for landed legal and illegal immigrants...for over 100 years. Edited April 13, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: U.S. messaging started long before that at the state level. U.S. governors have the most impact and jurisdiction for each state, no matter what Trump says. We were getting much the same messaging at the provincial level for the same reason. The difference is that we didn't have a PM downplaying everything he said was under control while blaming the panic on the deepstate/opposition and where virtually half the population slurped it all back like mother's milk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, eyeball said: We were getting much the same messaging at the provincial level for the same reason. The difference is that we didn't have a PM downplaying everything he said was under control while blaming the panic on the deepstate/opposition and where virtually half the population slurped it all back like mother's milk. Your PM was abroad kissing ass in an attempt to get a rotating UNSC seat. Your PM's wife even got infected while across the pond. At the other end, your deputy PM had to beg Trump for 3M masks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Your PM was abroad kissing ass in an attempt to get a rotating UNSC seat. Your PM's wife even got infected while across the pond. Yup, and out of the hair of the experts. Meanwhile Trump took a vacation to show everyone at home how important the world thought he was, bet you were beaming like Pence does when casting that adoring gaze at Trump. Quote At the other end, your deputy PM had to beg Trump for 3M masks. Shaming a welcher into keeping a deal is more like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, eyeball said: Yup, and out of the hair of the experts. Meanwhile Trump took a vacation to show everyone at home how important the world thought he was, bet you were beaming like Pence does when casting that adoring gaze at Trump. He's your PM, not mine. Hope he gets that UNSC seat for all his trouble....Trump and the USA already have theirs....won't be an election issue. Quote Shaming a welcher into keeping a deal is more like it. Begging....Trump made the deal with 3M...not Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: You don't understand....the virus and other problems are coming anyway...don't need Bill Gates to explain the obvious. The Gates Foundation is actually more a symptom and manifestation of the wealth disparity problems than any solution. I have lived with the "social problems" since the 1950's and would still prefer America's half filled glass. I do not look to Canada's version of Bill Gates as a guru...do you have one ? This is not the world's first or last pandemic. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. America is still the #1 destination in the world for landed legal and illegal immigrants...for over 100 years. Stop clinging to glory days that may be behind you. We have our own gurus aplenty, such as Naiomi Klein or your old favourite Maude Barlow. We have plenty of “experts”. I have my own issue with Gates, who seems to have a bit too much inside knowledge of this virus, but I gave up on speculation of conspiracies long ago. I would simply look at the facts of how transmission is occurring and the kinds of policies that are effective, which will be as transnational as the PPE we buy from and supply to other countries. Americans don’t get immunity by keeping out certain nationalities, just as Russians don’t get immunity by drinking vodka. Science over political ideology and national pride. Edited April 13, 2020 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: He's my President, not your's. Thank Christ for that. Quote Begging....Trump made the deal with 3M...not Canada. Shaming...Trump changed the terms of the deal...not 3M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Stop clinging to glory days that may be behind you. We have our own gurus aplenty, such as Naiomi Klein or your old favourite Maude Barlow. We have plenty of “experts”. I have my own issue with Gates, who seems to have a bit too much inside knowledge of this virus, but I gave up on speculation of conspiracies long ago. I would simply look at the facts of how transmission is occurring and the kinds of policies that are effective, which will be as transnational as the PPE we buy from and supply to other countries. Americans don’t get immunity by keeping out certain nationalities, just as Russians don’t get immunity by drinking vodka. Science over political ideology and national pride. Why do you insist on this crusade to convince any American what he or she should do ? America's past is filled economic and social conflict...even wars at home and abroad. Do you not understand America's past ? And even if you do, why would it be any different in the future ? Canada's empire failed generations ago....(yet you cling to its queen)....is it so bad that that you have to hope and pray that America will not follow the same trend ? Please let America succeed or fail on its own terms...not yours. Edited April 13, 2020 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, eyeball said: Shaming...Trump changed the terms of the deal...not 3M. Shame is a Canadian value...not Trump's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Shame is a Canadian value...not Trump's. Clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Why do you insist on this crusade to convince any American what he or she should do ? America's past is filled economic and social conflict...even wars at home and abroad. Do you not understand America's past ? And even if you do, why would it be any different in the future ? Canada's empire failed generations ago....is it so bad that that you have to hope and pray that America will not follow the same trend ? Please let America succeed or fail on its own terms...not yours. Knock yourself out with war and turmoil. Canada never had an empire, though it was colonized. The Canadian way is to develop effective, science-based policy, communicated transparently to the public, which gives input and elects policy leaders. That’s the ideal anyway. Some would say Trudeau hasn’t been transparent or responsive enough. Others would say he has been too open to suggestions, making him a doormat. Our political system is always a work in progress, but the institutions and system are pretty solid. No drift to fascism yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: Knock yourself out with war and turmoil. Canada never had an empire, though it was colonized. The Canadian way is to develop effective, science-based policy, communicated transparently to the public, which gives input and elects policy leaders. That’s the ideal anyway. Some would say Trudeau hasn’t been transparent or responsive enough. Others would say he has been too open to suggestions, making him a doormat. Our political system is always a work in progress, but the institutions and system are pretty solid. No drift to fascism yet. Then you are in denial about Canada's past...but that's OK....each nation has its own culture and watered down historical narrative. You do Canada...we will do America. Donald Trump will be the Republican candidate for POTUS in November 2020 and voters will decide state electors and EC winner. ...been that way for longer than Canada has not been a "colony". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Then you are in denial about Canada's past...but that's OK....each nation has its own culture and watered down historical narrative. You do Canada...we will do America. Donald Trump will be the Republican candidate for POTUS in November 2020 and voters will decide state electors and EC winner. ...been that way for longer than Canada has not been a "colony". I hope your election goes ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: I hope your election goes ahead. Why wouldn't it ? We had a presidential election (and many down ballot seats) even during the Civil War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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