Warning to All MLW Members - Fear and the Cronavirus

[Zeitgeist]

It's all about flattening the curve of cases so that the healthcare system isn't overwhelmed.  If people having flu-like symptoms stay home and contact their regional health authority or Telehealth, they can receive direction as to whether testing is necessary, how to get it, and how to proceed with treatment.  New testing centres are setting up shop and in some cases testers are visiting homes.  I'm sure there will be many situations where people feel symptoms, stay home, and make a complete recovery without setting foot in a hospital.  In some cases these people might not get around to the testing until they have recovered, which is okay if they are staying completely isolated at home and others are bringing in the essentials until recovery. 

The initial worry as we adjust to these measures puts some pressure on the system as people call in.  The wisest move for everyone who hasn't felt symptoms of C-19 is to avoid large gatherings; maintain social distancing (approx. 2 meters); hand wash frequently, especially after touching public surfaces; and keep hands away from your eyes, nose and mouth.  If the vast majority of people abide by these measures, including 14-day self-isolation for those returning from international travel, we will see the numbers settle down, even if there is an initial surge in cases as testing ramps up and we become better able to identify cases.  Seeing the numbers settle down means the system can respond to the needs.  We will see more online communications in a number of areas.  Eventually people will return to the public sphere, including schools and public transit, but with much more careful health hygiene and social distancing. 

The opportunity:  For those who interpret C-19 as symptomatic of a more crowded and unhealthy world with mismanaged problems, such as climate change and wage inequality, this may be the time to consider major policy initiatives.  Some people feel that our society has been too hard to sustain, not just environmentally but in our workplaces and lifestyles.  Maybe big growth shouldn't be the focus.  We need to manage the economy better.  Perhaps a universal basic income will be necessary, as long as there's still incentive to work and standards of living don't significantly drop.  I think we can have good social policy and a greener economy, but that will take expert, data-based policy.  Politicians have to give more air time to the technocrats, share the facts, ensure the public is well informed, and let everyone weigh in.  We can have a more direct democracy and more responsive government/services through technology and better policy.  We can build more complete communities, provide greater equality, improve the workplace and the environment, and improve overall health and wellness.  

Edited March 14, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Nice, do you still have any paper? You people are talking about reading. My problems are more fundamental...

Here you go buddy. 

I'd lend you my shovel but I kinda have other uses for it.

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Yes let's blame the evil corporations for dirty azz Chinese food markets and people eating cats and dogs.  LOL.  Yes its always the fault of capitalism and corporations and the west.  Don't make anyone actually responsible for their own actions, China is just a victim of the oppressive western oligarchy.  Give me a break man.

China needs to clean up its act.

Never said it didn't and China a victim? Hardly, it's clearly a benefactor of globalism and virtually untrammeled wealth creation.  We're victims of China's success and all I pointed out is that we encouraged that and walked into it with our eye's wide open.  We were told decades ago that trading more freely with China would cause it to become more like us - that wealth would spur more freedom and the sort of democratic reforms that amongst other things would lead to things like people speaking up for better standards.  

We've seen for at least a couple of decades now that the opposite is the case and worse now we're seeing pressure building on us to become more like them in terms of regulatory reforms, as in having less regulations here ourselves, especially environmental.  We should have been tying trade with China to it's human rights and lack thereof at least 15 years ago.

Another thing wealth does when it falls into nouveau hands is allow those hands to consume more of the things than they could before, like wild exotic animals.  We've also known for decades about the market for live and often endangered animals that many people around the world have spoken up about and asked that our governments join in doing something about. Most have ignored doing so because of the economics of our own dependency and expediency.  We've known about the dangerous cross infectious diseases that can occur at the international level for decades too.  Unfortunately the sorts of international conventions and institutions that might have been listened to so we could act more accordingly, i.e. economic sanctions against China, just don't seem to have the moral or regulatory gravitas they deserve - probably because they get in the way of greed which as we know is really really good.

China is not the only one that needs to clean up its stupid act around this stupid planet.

Edited March 15, 2020 by eyeball

[scribblet]

4 hours ago, jacee said:

Everyone flying in has to self-isolate for 2 weeks, I believe.

They go home and self-isolate for 2 weeks.

No need to panic. 

Sure they all will

[jacee]

4 hours ago, bcsapper said:

What should we do if they don't?

You should hibernate like we all are. 

They are checking in with Public Health.

Planes are a problem ... 

Edited March 15, 2020 by jacee

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Never said it didn't and China a victim? Hardly, it's clearly a benefactor of globalism and virtually untrammeled wealth creation.  We're victims of China's success and all I pointed out is that we encouraged that and walked into it with our eye's wide open.  We were told decades ago that trading more freely with China would cause it to become more like us - that wealth would spur more freedom and the sort of democratic reforms that amongst other things would lead to things like people speaking up for better standards.  

We've seen for at least a couple of decades now that the opposite is the case and worse now we're seeing pressure building on us to become more like them in terms of regulatory reforms, as in having less regulations here ourselves, especially environmental.  We should have been tying trade with China to it's human rights and lack thereof at least 15 years ago.

Another thing wealth does when it falls into nouveau hands is allow those hands to consume more of the things than they could before, like wild exotic animals.  We've also known for decades about the market for live and often endangered animals that many people around the world have spoken up about and asked that our governments join in doing something about. Most have ignored doing so because of the economics of our own dependency and expediency.  We've known about the dangerous cross infectious diseases that can occur at the international level for decades too.  Unfortunately the sorts of international conventions and institutions that might have been listened to so we could act more accordingly, i.e. economic sanctions against China, just don't seem to have the moral or regulatory gravitas they deserve - probably because they get in the way of greed which as we know is really really good.

China is not the only one that needs to clean up its stupid act around this stupid planet.

If the Trump Yanks are so scared of international bodies like the World Trade Organization or World Health Organization, to the point of refusing their test kits, then form a coalition with all the countries willing to maintain high labour and environmental standards, and make meeting those standards a condition of trading with the block.  If you’re a China and wish to trade with the block, either accept the standards or pay a penalty on a sliding scale depending on the level of violation in order to sell into the block.  

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, jacee said:

You should hibernate like we all are. 

They are checking in with Public Health.

Planes are a problem.

I can't hibernate.  The planet isn't going to save itself.

I did hear of someone who flew in recently.  As they had changed planes in the US, they were advised to self isolate. But their cupboard was bare, as were their bathroom shelves.

[eyeball]

46 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I can't hibernate.  The planet isn't going to save itself.

I did hear of someone who flew in recently.  As they had changed planes in the US, they were advised to self isolate. But their cupboard was bare, as were their bathroom shelves.

There's always Skip-the Dishes!  Just remember to ask for extra napkins.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

If the Trump Yanks are so scared of international bodies like the World Trade Organization or World Health Organization....

 

The "Trump Yanks" and many other nations already have a robust regime of domestic, trading block, and internationally recognized standards.   Canada uses many of these standards (e.g. ASTM International, originally from the American Society for Testing and Materials) and WTO recognized.

[kactus]

On one hand you have panic 

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It's all about flattening the curve of cases so that the healthcare system isn't overwhelmed.  If people having flu-like symptoms stay home and contact their regional health authority or Telehealth, they can receive direction as to whether testing is necessary, how to get it, and how to proceed with treatment.  New testing centres are setting up shop and in some cases testers are visiting homes.  I'm sure there will be many situations where people feel symptoms, stay home, and make a complete recovery without setting foot in a hospital.  In some cases these people might not get around to the testing until they have recovered, which is okay if they are staying completely isolated at home and others are bringing in the essentials until recovery. 

The initial worry as we adjust to these measures puts some pressure on the system as people call in.  The wisest move for everyone who hasn't felt symptoms of C-19 is to avoid large gatherings; maintain social distancing (approx. 2 meters); hand wash frequently, especially after touching public surfaces; and keep hands away from your eyes, nose and mouth.  If the vast majority of people abide by these measures, including 14-day self-isolation for those returning from international travel, we will see the numbers settle down, even if there is an initial surge in cases as testing ramps up and we become better able to identify cases.  Seeing the numbers settle down means the system can respond to the needs.  We will see more online communications in a number of areas.  Eventually people will return to the public sphere, including schools and public transit, but with much more careful health hygiene and social distancing. 

The opportunity:  For those who interpret C-19 as symptomatic of a more crowded and unhealthy world with mismanaged problems, such as climate change and wage inequality, this may be the time to consider major policy initiatives.  Some people feel that our society has been too hard to sustain, not just environmentally but in our workplaces and lifestyles.  Maybe big growth shouldn't be the focus.  We need to manage the economy better.  Perhaps a universal basic income will be necessary, as long as there's still incentive to work and standards of living don't significantly drop.  I think we can have good social policy and a greener economy, but that will take expert, data-based policy.  Politicians have to give more air time to the technocrats, share the facts, ensure the public is well informed, and let everyone weigh in.  We can have a more direct democracy and more responsive government/services through technology and better policy.  We can build more complete communities, provide greater equality, improve the workplace and the environment, and improve overall health and wellness.  

Flattening that curve will mean compromising the health of elderlies or people with pre existing conditions that will inevitably put a strain on NHS as you suggested.

I am actually wondering as to whether the ‘herd immunity’ idea will immunise antibody and save lives for those affected? But what if the virus further mutates? Given that there is no vaccination available for C.19 this would be quite concerning...

[Guest ProudConservative]

If you want to go down the rabbit hole... I wonder what would happen if someone stole some blood from Bill Gates, and some of the most powerful people on the planet. Would you find special antibodies against the coronavirus.

If this is a biological weapon, you could force the elite to take blood tests, and see who might of had a vaccine.

You could then make a vaccine, based on their antibodies.

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

Wouldn't it be cheaper, for the world to make Hazmat suits than shut down the entire economy? Think about it. If they designed lean biosuits, that were comfortable to wear, people could go to work instead of panicking and staying home. People could get their groceries without coughing on each other. If someone is sick, and they cough inside their biosuit, it's no big deal.

Minimum wage is $14 an hour, so a $100 bio suit would pay for itself after 1 day

If the government nationalized some factories, or built new ones from scratch... we could supply every Canadian with a hazmat suit, for a pricetag of $35 billion dollars

That sounds like a lot, but if we get bio-terrorism in the future.... It's far cheaper than going into a recession.

You produce them, with massive economies of scale to bring the price down.

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Rue]

Good God get a grip. Use some common sense just once.

[Rue]

Proud you need to stop with the nonsensical responses. Use common sense just once instead of ranting. The vast majority of people who get the corona virus do not get that sick. Think before you write idiotic responses. Think just once what that means.

[scribblet]

9 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I can't hibernate.  The planet isn't going to save itself.

I did hear of someone who flew in recently.  As they had changed planes in the US, they were advised to self isolate. But their cupboard was bare, as were their bathroom shelves.

We are over 65 but still cannot hibernate as we have to get groceries and meds now and then.   I have to go out today to look for TP as I haven't been able to find any for a few days, they were lines up outside Walmart on Friday and their shelves were cleaned out TP.   I also need some pasta but they were out of that too, hopefully I can get some today. along with NyQuil and Tylenol just in case.  

Planes are still coming here from China and passengers are reporting there is no enhanced screening, they just answer some questions then walk right through.   Illegals are still crossing at Roxham Rd. with no screening but given gold plated benefits https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-docs-show-asylum-claimant-health-access-expanded-to-20-years

Seniors are most at risk but Italy is not doing anything medically for anyone over 80,  don't be surprised if Canada does the same should it get a lot worse.  We don't have enough respirators and Canada allready as the lowest number of beds than other countries.  I'm willing to place a bet that if it gets a lot worse seniors will not be helped at all.   Speakinig of seniors, snowbirds have been advised to come home but no flights to be had...   it's madness.

Be careful with your stash of TP, you could get mugged.   This is getting out of hand and it's only just begun, civilized society is only a veneer, it won't take much for it to fall apart and every one for himself.  

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/14/london-shopper-mugged-toilet-paper-12399135/

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, kactus said:

 Flattening that curve will mean compromising the health of elderlies or people with pre existing conditions that will inevitably put a strain on NHS as you suggested.

I think it means the opposite.

[Guest ProudConservative]

46 minutes ago, Rue said:

Proud you need to stop with the nonsensical responses. Use common sense just once instead of ranting. The vast majority of people who get the corona virus do not get that sick. Think before you write idiotic responses. Think just once what that means.

You need to think before you speak as well. 7% of the worlds closed cases, have resulted in death. That means that 7% of the people who test positive, end up dying. What will the fatality rate be, when we run out of hospitals. It could be 15% or higher.

I guess it's cheaper to watch the old people die, than spend $100 on a hazmat suit, so they can get groceries. No need to pay your pensions.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

42 minutes ago, scribblet said:

We are over 65 but still cannot hibernate as we have to get groceries and meds now and then.   I have to go out today to look for TP as I haven't been able to find any for a few days, they were lines up outside Walmart on Friday and their shelves were cleaned out TP.   I also need some pasta but they were out of that too, hopefully I can get some today. along with NyQuil and Tylenol just in case.  

Planes are still coming here from China and passengers are reporting there is no enhanced screening, they just answer some questions then walk right through.   Illegals are still crossing at Roxham Rd. with no screening but given gold plated benefits https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-docs-show-asylum-claimant-health-access-expanded-to-20-years

Seniors are most at risk but Italy is not doing anything medically for anyone over 80,  don't be surprised if Canada does the same should it get a lot worse.  We don't have enough respirators and Canada allready as the lowest number of beds than other countries.  I'm willing to place a bet that if it gets a lot worse seniors will not be helped at all.   Speakinig of seniors, snowbirds have been advised to come home but no flights to be had...   it's madness.

Be careful with your stash of TP, you could get mugged.   This is getting out of hand and it's only just begun, civilized society is only a veneer, it won't take much for it to fall apart and every one for himself.  

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/14/london-shopper-mugged-toilet-paper-12399135/

 

 

I'm in very remote community now. I just purchased 500lbs of water yesterday. I got 200 lbs of more food. I'm ready to start catching fish, if there are food shortages. I went and bought 60 rolls of toilet paper, since i was one the first people in the store. and 95% of it was sold it.

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Zeitgeist]

I’ve been thinking about how we return to normal once the numbers begin to flatten.   How do we return students to schools, for example, and at the same time ensure that the spreaders aren’t hurting the vulnerable?  It might be this strategy from the Brits:

“Over-70s - and younger people with certain health conditions - will need to remain at home and have groceries and vital medication delivered, the health secretary said. [...] All the UK deaths from the virus so far have been among people aged over 60 or with underlying health conditions.“

Edited March 15, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

4 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

I'm in very remote community now. I just purchased 500lbs of water yesterday. I got 200 lbs of more food. I'm ready to start catching fish, if there are food shortages. I went and bought 60 rolls of toilet paper, since i was one the first people in the store. and 95% of it was sold it.

If need be, governments will have to institute rationing, as in WW2 in Britain.   People became quite healthy actually.   We may never get there, but we’ll do all we need to do to protect the greatest number of people.   

Edited March 15, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Guest ProudConservative]

Well Canada has no strategy. We got people over 60 lined up in the grocery store coughing on each other to buy toilet paper. And people like Rue being condescending, because i suggested that Canada make Hazmat suits, as fast as possible. I guess people like Rue, want people to die.

[Guest ProudConservative]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

If need be, governments will have to institute rationing, as in WW2 in Britain.   People became quite healthy actually.   We may never get there, but we’ll do all we need to do to protect the greatest number of people.   

The panic was a good way to get people to stock up, but those supplies won't last forever. Now is the time to declare martial law in Canada. Anyone caught outside their home can be sent to prison for up to 1 year.

If we close all our borders and forced everyone to stay inside their home for 3 weeks, the virus would burn itself out. 

The government needs to shut down every city and small town at once.... and all other countries agree to do it at the same time.

Any country that doesn't have a complete shutdown, get's banned from our borders.

If they don't do the shutdown in sync, than people will continue to spread the virus.

What they can't be doing is wack a mole shutdowns. That will lead to a great depression

Everyone agrees to do the shutdown at once, or we let millions die.

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Rue]

6 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

The panic was a good way to get people to stock up, but those supplies won't last forever. Now is the time to declare martial law in Canada. Anyone caught outside their home can be sent to prison for up to 1 year.

If we close all our borders and forced everyone to stay inside their home for 3 weeks, the virus would burn itself out. 

 

More rational lucid insights.

[Guest ProudConservative]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

More rational lucid insights.

You should be way more worried than I am, because of your age. So you think this virus is a joke? You don't understand the function of exponential growth?

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative

[Guest ProudConservative]

There are 3 ways to deal with future pandemics or bioteorrism

1 - Lock people in their homes, and wait until the vaccine

2 - Get everyone to wear hazmat suits for three week, so they can work, and not be in fear

3 - Get everyone infected as fast as possible, so we can recover as fast as possible, and accept the casualties as inevitable.

I prefer the second choice.

Edited March 15, 2020 by ProudConservative