Most dangerous thing coming across our borders? American style politics

[SkyHigh]

Ive been noticing more and more polarized, à la American politics taking a stronghold in Canada, and this worries me.

Here we are rarely separated on a right left basis, but in fact the gross majority of conflict we have in Canada centers around regional autonomy and the overreaching grasp of centralized gov't.

Allow me to illustrate this. Federally we have a "conservative" party that supports socialized healthcare and is not interested in reopening the abortion issue, and a supposed "lefty" Trudeau led government that would be best described as "Neo"liberal, not exactly polar opposites. Provincially we just need to look at the NDP in Alberta and compare them to the newly formed Npdq, other than a name they share very little similarities, again in my opinion showing that the left/right debate differs depending on where in the country you are. Blindly voting for a party based on the colour of their political signage, will do nothing to adress the alienation felt by, the west, quebec or the Maritimes.

In the states there are only two sides, with us or against us, one side says Trump is a Nazi, the other Bernie is a communist(neither of course being true) and no room for middle ground. In Canada(for the most part) the reality is we actually understand compromise, partisan grandstanding is reserved for campaigns, and the real work is done in things like parliamentary committees, when juxtaposed to America wherein the day they get elected their only "want/job/desire/role/purpose(pick the one you like best) is reelection, the difference is glaring.

In conclusion, please help in protecting our borders from this influx of intellectual ignorance flooding in from our southern neighbor. We're better educated, lets keep it that way

This is my first attempt at starting a thread, and I admittedly to not posses the command of the written language that others here do, therefore apologizes if this lacked clarity, but I'd be most interested in the opinions of fellow interlocutors.

Thanks

[eyeball]

This is a ship that sailed some time ago and we've been following the US fleet around albeit a little more quietly for at least a couple of decades now.

I don't know if the bases of ideological supporting Canada political parties have been leading their politicians around or visa versa but it's difficult to tell the difference between the level of constructive debate amongst politicians and that which is found in an internet forum.

As is said in another thread political pendulums are a lot more like wrecking balls and they seem to be picking up momentum with each passing troll that gets elected to office.

[SkyHigh]

17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

This is a ship that sailed some time ago and we've been following the US fleet around albeit a little more quietly for at least a couple of decades now.

I don't know if the bases of ideological supporting Canada political parties have been leading their politicians around or visa versa but it's difficult to tell the difference between the level of constructive debate amongst politicians and that which is found in an internet forum.

As is said in another thread political pendulums are a lot more like wrecking balls and they seem to be picking up momentum with each passing troll that gets elected to office.

With all due respect, how does that adress the differences between how Canada and the US conduct politics, and the way those differences must be debated here?

I see the "pendulum" analogy, but would humbly like to offer up the term "metronome" though it still fluctuates from right to left, it also maintains a steady beat allowing all those who follow the ability to keep up no matter their part, Which I feel is what we have, and what we should continue to strive for here.

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

This is a ship that sailed some time ago and we've been following the US fleet around albeit a little more quietly for at least a couple of decades now.

I don't know if the bases of ideological supporting Canada political parties have been leading their politicians around or visa versa but it's difficult to tell the difference between the level of constructive debate amongst politicians and that which is found in an internet forum.

As is said in another thread political pendulums are a lot more like wrecking balls and they seem to be picking up momentum with each passing troll that gets elected to office.

I agree with the pendulum wrecking ball theme.  Guys like Trump and Doug Ford are useful idiots.  They are useful in reversing decades of disastrous elitist policy (on the left and right).  But they are also idiots.

I don't know how many years it will take, but these politicians are creating new norms, some useful, some idiotic, and they and others like them will lead us to a point where the establishment rightwing and mainstream left-wing politicians will learn to respond to some of things they've ignored for decades but voters want addressed.  Then we can go back to having more moderate, sane politicians like Clinton and Chretien but who respond better to the electorate.

Some cheer on Trump and Ford, others go nuts rallying against them. I prefer to just sit back and enjoy the show.  Everything will work itself out.  We survived WWII and the Cold War, we can survive this.  Call it an inevitable "market correction".

[Yzermandius19]

The Eskimo Communist Iron Curtain against American Freedom will fall, and that is very much a good thing. Dangerous to the Laurentian Elites, sure, but again, that's a good thing. Canada's narrow overton window is a bad thing, there needs to be an actual difference between parties, not just the same thing with different labels and colors.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Queenmandy85]

There are two problems with ideology.

Ideology is the fallacy that there is one overall philosophy that will solve all problems.

It also says that any other philosophy is wrong. 

It is human nature to disagree over political views but the discussion must always be respectful and friendly because the odds are overwhelmingly certain that both sides are wrong. Governments operate best on a pragmatic basis without reference to ideology.

Good topic, SkyHigh.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Queenmandy85
Spelling error

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian politics has far less dynamic range than American politics.   Canadian politics does not bear the same burdens and challenges as America.  As long as it serves Canada well, that will remain the case.   But if it does not, there will be calls for change, and that kind of battle will invite the methods of American barbarians.

Political junkies and media in Canada find far more to observe in volume and contrast when observing the American process.  Canadians cross the border to actively participate in American political campaigns and protests, because that's where the action is.

Americans do not stay up late at night to see what party/leader wins Canadian elections.  

[Zeitgeist]

5 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The Eskimo Communist Iron Curtain against American Freedom will fall, and that is very much a good thing. Dangerous to the Laurentian Elites, sure, but again, that's a good thing. Canada's narrow overton window is a bad thing, there needs to be an actual difference between parties, not just the same thing with different labels and colors.

You mean different from the way Clinton and Gingrich co-created policy?  The Republicans never had it so good as under Clinton.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canadian politics has far less dynamic range than American politics.   Canadian politics does not bear the same burdens and challenges as America.  As long as it serves Canada well, that will remain the case.   But if it does not, there will be calls for change, and that kind of battle will invite the methods of American barbarians.

Political junkies and media in Canada find far more to observe in volume and contrast when observing the American process.  Canadians cross the border to actively participate in American political campaigns and protests, because that's where the action is.

Americans do not stay up late at night to see what party/leader wins Canadian elections.  

I agree that the consequences of good/bad U.S. policy are more far reaching than Canadian policy, but there are differences between the approaches.  Canada is more communitarian and reluctant to let parts of the country/city/population fall apart to the same degree as the US, even when it means higher taxes and less personal wealth.  The US is more individualistic and accepts bigger gaps between the haves and have-nots, though personal wealth potential is greater.  While you're taxed less, there's less shared responsibility for public problems.  If the public school or neighbourhood gets too rough, the wealthy can move and attend private school.  While some attend private schools or live in gated communities in Canada, there's less need to do this because generally the disparity between the "good" and "bad" areas isn't as great or widespread, which isn't to say there aren't bad areas in Canada.  It's a matter of quantity and degree.    

[eyeball]

On 2/10/2020 at 2:37 PM, SkyHigh said:

With all due respect, how does that adress the differences between how Canada and the US conduct politics, and the way those differences must be debated here?

I see the "pendulum" analogy, but would humbly like to offer up the term "metronome" though it still fluctuates from right to left, it also maintains a steady beat allowing all those who follow the ability to keep up no matter their part, Which I feel is what we have, and what we should continue to strive for here.

A metronome in a political context would be a better analogy for the duopoly in a state where two parties or ideologies persist. Wealthy political contributors routinely give money to or lobby both sides.  The never ending growth of a wealth gap in virtually all societies is the best indicator of the efficacy of wealthy influential interests playing  both sides and promoting official policies that push the divide ever wider.

Military economic expansion of an American hegemony has continued unabated by both sides.  The best example I can think of here in Canada is how our west coast fisheries were completely restructured according to an economic prescription that privatized quotas that put thousands of people and business out of work.  When the dust settled BC's wealthiest billionaire wound up controlling some 40%.  Both Liberal and Conservative governments engineered this and the process was essentially seamless in terms of either regime's approach to carrying it out.

As to your question about addressing how we conduct politics...  Firstly I think the differences dividing the massed of voters in North America are so contrived and blown so out of proportion as to be silly especially in light of the fury that attends them.

You mentioned the so-called leftiness of Trudeau and I agree there is as very little leftiness about the Liberal Party as there is about the Democrats in the States.  I pretty much reject the modern associations of left and right to progressiveness and conservatism myself and subscribe to the definition given the terms right and left in post revolutionary France.  The original definition in my mind is far better at describing how power is distributed in a society as opposed to wealth.  You can get a lot more of the latter when the former in under your control.   Look at the oligarchs in China's right wing for example.

IMO the distribution of power in any society is and always has been far and away a more important consideration than the distribution of wealth.  Try to redistribute power and we'll soon see just how fast that metronome is turned into a wrecking ball too.

As to your question how do we address doing politics differently, I don't see much difference in how people govern themselves anywhere on our planet and won't until we focus more on redistributing power equally. Do that and wealth will follow naturally on it's own. How?  We turn the Telescreens around and monitor governments to an extent that would make Orwell himself blush. I don't see any other way myself.

Edited February 12, 2020 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

Quote

 If the public school or neighbourhood gets too rough, the wealthy can move and attend private school.  While some attend private schools or live in gated communities in Canada, there's less need to do this because generally the disparity between the "good" and "bad" areas isn't as great or widespread, which isn't to say there aren't bad areas in Canada.  It's a matter of quantity and degree.    

 

There is plenty of movement in Canada as well, driven by economics more than politics.   Whether it is the Maritimes or now Alberta, employment disparities force hard choices and relocations.   10% of Canadians don't even live in Canada, and Quebec is its own unique example of individual politics, separated as a matter of policy to keep the country from breaking up.  First Nations are happy to use American style politics to achieve objectives...again.

Politics in Canada is more sameness and less ideological diversity, even though there are multiple political parties.   Canada has more aversion to conflict, preferring "peace, order, and good government".    American politics and symbols are readily imported when they align with changing "Canadian values" (e.g. Rainbow flag, gay pride parades, black history month, enumerated rights), but rejected for more individual rights (e.g. free speech/expression).

Accordingly, the OP should consider that some American politics is welcomed when desired and aligned, even embraced.   "American politics" seemingly gets a bad connotation when they do not align, not always.

Edited February 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Yzermandius19]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You mean different from the way Clinton and Gingrich co-created policy?  The Republicans never had it so good as under Clinton.

The Republicans have it better under Trump, and the difference between Clinton and Gingrich is huge compared to the difference between Trudeau and Scheer. Americans actually have a choice, and Canadians recoil from having a choice.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

43 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The Republicans have it better under Trump, and the difference between Clinton and Gingrich is huge compared to the difference between Trudeau and Scheer. Americans actually have a choice, and Canadians recoil from having a choice.

We're just less polarized and more harmonious than the Yanks.

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We're just less polarized and more harmonious than the Yanks.

It's cultish group think, you can try and spin it as a positive if you want, that's what Eskimo Communists do. A certain amount of polarization is a good thing, and the Yanks have a healthy amount of polarization, Canada does not.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[godzilla]

13 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There are two problems with ideology.

Ideology is the fallacy that there is one overall philosophy that will solve all problems.

It also says that any other philosophy is wrong. 

It is human nature to disagree over political views but the discussion must always be respectful and friendly because the odds are overwhelmingly certain that both sides are wrong. Governments operate best on a pragmatic basis without reference to ideology.

Good topic, SkyHigh.

what he said!

[Zeitgeist]

24 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

It's cultish group think, you can try and spin it as a positive if you want, that's what Eskimo Communists do. A certain amount of polarization is a good thing, and the Yanks have a healthy amount of polarization, Canada does not.

What's so healthy about it?  Who are these "Eskimo Communists"?  I've yet to meet an Inuit person and this is a liberal democracy, freer and less violent than the US of A.  We have our own problems and are no better than the Yanks, but I don't see what makes the US better either.  It's a matter of preference and belief. I do see the US becoming more fearful and closed, and I don't know how warranted that is.  Nevertheless, the warm weather of the south works for me this time of year.  Take the good with the bad.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What's so healthy about it?  Who are these "Eskimo Communists"?  I've yet to meet an Inuit person and this is a liberal democracy, freer and less violent than the US of A.  We have our own problems and are no better than the Yanks, but I don't see what makes the US better either.  It's a matter of preference and belief. I do see the US becoming more fearful and closed, and I don't know how warranted that is.  Nevertheless, the warm weather of the south works for me this time of year.  Take the good with the bad.

Canada is not freer than America.

The Eskimo Communists are those who cling to Confederation using the excuse that without it the natives can't fend for themselves, using the welfare of a minority group to prop up a silly shotgun marriage that hurts the very minority group they claim to want to help.

The lack of choice leads to worse governance, because you can never vote out those in power, because the alternatives are no different, they all govern as the Liberal Party of Canada would.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[bush_cheney2004]

 

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The lack of choice leads to worse governance, because you can never vote out those in power, because the alternatives are no different, they all govern as the Liberal Party of Canada would.

 

Indeed....which leads to such notions as the "natural ruling party of Canada" as political doctrine.

It becomes so bland and boring that many Canadians know and pay more attention to American politics...consuming a steady stream from American and Canadian media.

In 2008, 15% of CBC polled Canadians would give up their vote in Canada to participate in the U.S. (foreign) election.

Edited February 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

27 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

 

Indeed....which leads to such notions as the "natural ruling party of Canada" as political doctrine.

It becomes so bland and boring that many Canadians know and pay more attention to American politics...consuming a steady stream from American and Canadian media.

In 2008, 15% of CBC polled Canadians would give up their vote in Canada to participate in the U.S. (foreign) election.

It’s fun to watch the circus, but sometimes we get our own sideshow.  Trudeau’s minstrel show was pretty lively.  Trump has had some real gems.  

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s fun to watch the circus, but sometimes we get our own sideshow.  Trudeau’s minstrel show was pretty lively.  Trump has had some real gems.  

 

Sure, but it goes beyond that.

A significant portion of the Canadian electorate believes that American political choices have a big impact on their lives in Canada.  What does this say about politics in Canada ?

Why would those Canadians be so invested in foreign election outcomes ?    Culture and economy ?

"American style" is the bogeyman used to fight encroachment on several domestic issues found to be lacking, not just politics (e.g. healthcare).

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure, but it goes beyond that.

A significant portion of the Canadian electorate believes that American political choices have a big impact on their lives in Canada.  What does this say about politics in Canada ?

Why would those Canadians be so invested in foreign election outcomes ?    Culture and economy ?

"American style" is the bogeyman used to fight encroachment on several domestic issues found to be lacking, not just politics (e.g. healthcare).

 

Well obviously the US has a disproportionately large influence in Canada, but it’s also remarkable that Canada maintains what it has politically and culturally.  Some say, why fight so hard to maintain a distinction that isn’t always so distinct?  Others say fight harder.  A lot depends on where you live as well.  East coast, Newfoundland, Quebec, and the far north are quite distinct, but southern Ontario is so different from the far north and has more in common with the northeast US.  Just how it goes.  

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well obviously the US has a disproportionately large influence in Canada, but it’s also remarkable that Canada maintains what it has politically and culturally.  Some say, why fight so hard to maintain a distinction that isn’t always so distinct?  Others say fight harder.  A lot depends on where you live as well.  East coast, Newfoundland, Quebec, and the far north are quite distinct, but southern Ontario is so different from the far north and has more in common with the northeast US.  Just how it goes.  

 

Add British Columbia to the list, influenced by the U.S. west coast.

I would argue that Canada cannot realistically expect "American style" anything to be held at bay when so many cultural and economic entanglements are readily and voluntarily embraced, even demanded.

As the saying goes, "can't live with the Americans...can't live without them".

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I would argue that Canada cannot realistically expect "American style" anything to be held at bay when so many cultural and economic entanglements are readily and voluntarily embraced, even demanded.

As the saying goes, "can't live with the Americans...can't live without them".

Market Forces FTW. Bring on American Freedom, Down with The Eskimo Communist Iron Curtain against American Freedom.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Market Forces FTW. Bring on American Freedom, Down with The Eskimo Communist Iron Curtain against American Freedom.

These Eskimo Communists must be a force to be reckoned with.  Hope to meet one someday.  

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Add British Columbia to the list, influenced by the U.S. west coast.

I would argue that Canada cannot realistically expect "American style" anything to be held at bay when so many cultural and economic entanglements are readily and voluntarily embraced, even demanded.

As the saying goes, "can't live with the Americans...can't live without them".

Yeah like the spouse to complain about and miss when you’re apart.  Where would you be without your Canadian punching bag?