Health Care in Canada

[Argus]

Matt Gurney points out that where you stand on health care usually depends on how well you were treated in your last visit. But at the same time the statistics he quotes can't be denied. But as long as Canadians remain largely complacent the politicians are not going to bother with even talking about health care. It's not a problem which has a quick solution, which means politicians will avoid dealing with it at all costs because to deal with it they have to admit there's a problem. In the upcoming election, Canadians should continually be confronting candidates with the problems of our health care system.

Canada in general is a laggard. As horrifically offended as Canadians get when that’s pointed out, habituated as they are to reflexively comparing our system only to that of the United States, our system is, by international standards, mediocre. We spend more — considerably more, in some cases — of our total GDP on health care than our economic peer countries (as tracked by the Organization of Economic Co-Operation and Development, the OECD). Canada spends 10.7 per cent of GDP on health care, the OECD average is 8.7. For that money, we have well below the OECD average of number of physicians per 1,000 residents (2.7 vs. 3.5) and barely half the hospital beds per 1,000 residents (2.5 vs. 4.7). These are not great results for a country spending more than 25 per cent more of its GDP than the average OECD member.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-having-better-health-care-than-the-u-s-shouldnt-be-good-enough-for-canadians

[scribblet]

It sucks to put it bluntly, at least in Ontario.   I have a year long wait to see an ortho specialist...   at least another year wait if he wants to operate.   Hallway healthcare, people dying in emerg etc. etc    Time to allow private insurance and private practice alongside the current system. 

[Argus]

20 hours ago, scribblet said:

It sucks to put it bluntly, at least in Ontario.   I have a year long wait to see an ortho specialist...   at least another year wait if he wants to operate.   Hallway healthcare, people dying in emerg etc. etc    Time to allow private insurance and private practice alongside the current system. 

A friend of mine brought her mother to the ER the other day and they diagnosed her with heart issues. Her heart isn't getting enough oxygen. Something's wrong, but hey, whatayagonna do? It took them two days to find her a bed, despite the seriousness, and they still haven't run all the necessary tests. I know a couple of other people who have been off work a month and don't know what's wrong because they haven't been able to get diagnostic tests run yet. One needs an MRI and has been told it might take another 8 weeks. In the meantime she's forbidden to drive and is off work.

The government doesn't seem to get that this poses a cost to the economy. When we have tens of thousands, more likely hundreds of thousands of people not able to work, or only working occasionally waiting to get tests and treatment the cost to the economy is a lot more than the cost of improving the wait times for tests and treatment.

[scribblet]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

......The government doesn't seem to get that this poses a cost to the economy. When we have tens of thousands, more likely hundreds of thousands of people not able to work, or only working occasionally waiting to get tests and treatment the cost to the economy is a lot more than the cost of improving the wait times for tests and treatment.

Our health care is mediocre at best, and why do we always compare to the U.S., why not compare to other systems which rank much higher than ours. 

Why does Canada hold patients hostage to a mediocre Single Payer system- Even Communist China now has private hospitals

 

We need to make a decision on funding, we raise taxes and fund it properly, or we allow people to spend their money on their own care, which is ‘un-Canadian’, but it s what the rest of the world does. Even in Scandinavia.

"As horrifically offended as Canadians get when that’s pointed out, habituated as they are to reflexively comparing our system only to that of the United States, our system is, by international standards, mediocre"

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-having-better-health-care-than-the-u-s-shouldnt-be-good-enough-for-canadians

[Dougie93]

49 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Our health care is mediocre at best, and why do we always compare to the U.S., why not compare to other systems which rank much higher than ours. 

For example Switzerland, which is the best in the world, although you do have to pay about $200 a month for insurance, that covers you for anything, and they don't have waiting lists, it's faster service than even the Americans,  and Swiss taxes are lower, because  taxes don't pay for healthcare in Switzerland.

The problem with Canadians, is that they think that if the government pays for it, it's "free", but it's not free, it's astronomically expensive, which is why Canadians have Soviet style bread line healthcare which they actually pay more for on a monthly basis, once you factor how much of your taxes go each month to pay for it.

Canadians on average pay $500 a month, two and a half times what the Swiss pay, for healthcare which the Swiss would be consider to be terrible, meanwhile,  the healthcare that the Swiss get for two and half times less, is literally the same healthcare as billionaires get, because when billionaires get sick, they go to Switzerland, because even if you are a billionaire, you really can't purchase better healthcare than what they have in Switzerland, it really is the world gold standard.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Dougie93

[J4L]

Question:

 

If I have an Alberta health card, can I use it to purchase a prescription or go to a Doctor in Manitoba, when I am just taking a month off to visit relatives and family?  I don't have Manitoba Health Card, and wondering how this process works if you are in another province, but still residing in a different province.

[cannuck]

This thread will stall since the reasonable people will post more  of what  is here already and the rest will proclaim we are racists or whatever  for daring to question the sunny ways of Marx and Lenin. 

[eyeball]

Actually most of us will just laugh at the silly references to Marx and Lenin.

Besides which everyone knows Pol Pot's health system is the far better way to go.

[taxme]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Actually most of us will just laugh at the silly references to Marx and Lenin.

Besides which everyone knows Pol Pot's health system is the far better way to go.

What? Get sick, get shot?  

[taxme]

8 hours ago, cannuck said:

This thread will stall since the reasonable people will post more  of what  is here already and the rest will proclaim we are racists or whatever  for daring to question the sunny ways of Marx and Lenin. 

As far as I know Canada is not building any new hospitals as quickly as it probably should. There no doubt appears to be not all that many doctors or nurses in Canada. Canada spends more tax dollars on stupid politically correct liberal socialist bs rather than buy more MRI's.

It would appear as though everyone seems to have a problem with saying the word "Immigration" here. The health care system is in chaos because there is no politician who really wants to do anything about it and tackle the problem of immigration. The word racism is the alt-left liberals favorite word when they cannot win an argument. As if that is supposed to scare people off. Well, it did at one time but not anymore. When someone throws the racist word at someone than you know that they have lost the argument. The "sunny ways of Marx and Lenin" being promoted in Canada is the problem. But hey, eh. 

[cannuck]

there is no need for the government to buy ANY new MRI, or cat scanners or anything else.  the private sector can buy and operate all of the medical imaging equipment we need and in some provinces does just that.

It is not socialized service delivery that we need, it is socialized medical insurance.   In any other developed country they coexist happily.

[bush_cheney2004]

21 minutes ago, cannuck said:

there is no need for the government to buy ANY new MRI, or cat scanners or anything else.  the private sector can buy and operate all of the medical imaging equipment we need and in some provinces does just that.

 

True...I would expect that all the cats and dogs in Canada just laugh at how long it takes the humans to get an MRI or CT scan compared to privately funded veterinary clinics.

[egghead]

On 7/12/2019 at 10:01 PM, J4L said:

Question:

 

If I have an Alberta health card, can I use it to purchase a prescription or go to a Doctor in Manitoba, when I am just taking a month off to visit relatives and family?  I don't have Manitoba Health Card, and wondering how this process works if you are in another province, but still residing in a different province.

When I moved back to BC from Alb, I was under alberta health care coverage for few months before I was eligible for  BC health care coverage. (don't know may be I was doing it wrong)

Edited July 14, 2019 by egghead

[cannuck]

12 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True...I would expect that all the cats and dogs in Canada just laugh at how long it takes the humans to get an MRI or CT scan compared to privately funded veterinary clinics.

One of my kids is a DVM in AB...and they use off peak private human diagnostics for small animals. I live in SK and we know a guy with badly damaged shoulders from RSI and surgical repairs. When worker's comp wants him assessed in a hurry they do not get in the  gummint lineup, they fly him to AB and get an instant private MRI.  He has told me of occasions where he sat for hours in SK waiting for an  X ray in SK while the MRI he was booked to get weeks later sat fully staffed but unused in the same imaging facility.  when he tried to get the staff to let him use that obviously available service he was sternly lectured about que jumping.

just one example of how and why private service delivery is needed that can simply be left alone to bid to supply at best cost what government union facilities abuse with no consequence (to them, not patients. )

 

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, cannuck said:

just one example of how and why private service delivery is needed that can simply be left alone to bid to supply at best cost what government union facilities abuse with no consequence (to them, not patients. )

I will tip my hat to you, as you seem to have an understanding of the frustrations of our system.  Not sure if 'union' has anything to do with these issues but it may - in terms of an impediment to swift delivery of services.

But I will tell you what IS an impediment: our national disregard for good management of services.  This means: delivering VALUE to a USER at low cost, in a timely fashion and with quality.

As a manager, I am consistently appalled at how Canada does on this time and time again.  If it were just government then that could be the cause, but I see it in financial orgs, telecom, and retail also.  Until we collectively realize how shitty we are at that, nothing will be done as the biggest problem is that people actually accept it, even if they complain to each other about it.

[Argus]

The efficiency of our health care system.

Woman takes her mom to a clinic because she's weak and having trouble breathing. Clinic sends her to diagnostic place across the parking lot for tests. The tests indicate she had a heart attack and has all sorts of other issues. Clinic can't tell her that, nor can they call her doctor. Instead, by goverment privacy policy, they are required to send the results to her doctor by Canada Post. When Doctor gets the results - two days later - he calls her up right away and orders her to go immediately to the ER and don't drive herself. She is transferred to the heart institute where they find several blockages and tell her she's lucky she didn't have another heart attack in the interim.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Australia is a good country to compare ourselves to - similar size, culture and population. Places like Switzerland may be more difficult to emulate for many reasons. We need a mixed system of public and private care. One good thing is that CIHI is providing a lot more data on where we need to catch up. 

[Argus]

Tell me this isn't insane.

I asked next what happens when a patient is taken to hospital. The answer: almost the same thing that happens when a patient arrives on their own. A triage nurse will meet the ambulance, receive a report on the patient’s condition, and assess that patient’s needs. The nurse then slots the patient into priority sequence along with everyone already waiting inside the ER. Contrary to popular belief, my paramedic friend explained, arriving via ambulance does not automatically confer any immediate priority.

There is an important difference, though. I mentioned above that a paramedic, though an essential part of our health care, isn’t actually part of ER care. Once an ambulance loads a patient, the paramedic crew becomes responsible for that patient’s care, and they remain solely responsible for that patient until they are admitted by the ER. Non-urgent patients then wait on stretchers under the watchful gaze of well-trained paramedics, who are legally compelled to remain with them no matter how long it takes. Paramedic crews, and their valuable ambulances, can sit idle for many hours.

This is, to put it mildly, not a particularly good use of scarce resources.

In any event, eventually — in seconds or hours — the patient will be admitted into the emergency room, my friend explained. At that point, the paramedic is relieved of their obligation. After they write a report on that assignment, the ambulance is cleaned, and it becomes available for deployment again. One non-urgent patient can wipe out almost an entire 12-hour shift.

https://www.tvo.org/article/state-of-emergency-part-1-how-to-fix-ontario-ers-we-ask-a-paramedic

[The Philosopher]

Hi,

Does Anybody knows why the Healthcare system is not that good compared in the 90's when Jean-Chretien used to be in power ?

In the 90's the Healthcare system used to be better, you were not waiting that long to see a doctor, nurses were more present to take care of the patients (even if I have to admit that the vast majorities of the nurses are obligated to do overtime if the hospitals ask for it) it was easier and faster to have great healthcare services. What exactly happened ?  

Thank you

[egghead]

5 hours ago, The Philosopher said:

Hi,

Does Anybody knows why the Healthcare system is not that good compared in the 90's when Jean-Chretien used to be in power ?

In the 90's the Healthcare system used to be better, you were not waiting that long to see a doctor, nurses were more present to take care of the patients (even if I have to admit that the vast majorities of the nurses are obligated to do overtime if the hospitals ask for it) it was easier and faster to have great healthcare services. What exactly happened ?  

Thank you

Did you know the doc / nurses vs population ratio? Actually, the system is fine according to jim carrey

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by egghead

[scribblet]

Is 8 years the longest we know of for surgery?  This is the same province where a woman couldn't get treatment for cancer.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/weight-loss-surgery-wait-list-1.5173642?fbclid=IwAR3zxeof8GLmClsNEvr8OLGBdty6cO5GWmOBABKYmnApBvDT98x8R_iddKE

[SpankyMcFarland]

In most countries there is some dissatisfaction with the health service. We are by no means alone in that regard. 

[Rue]

Well if anyone wants a description of what Canadian culture is, its this thread. We like to complain about what is wrong but NEVER have suggestions to make things right. All socialized or government run or private run insurance programs have problems. All. There is no such thing as a perfect system. First off Switzerland is a nation whose entire economy is predicated on living off of the interest of stolen money so as far as I am concerned comparing any government to Switzerland's i means what?  Next, please do not tell me Switzerland or private insurance has better systems then Canada unless you can provide me  actual evidence to that fact with specific examples.

Of course our medical system has line ups and limitations no different that private systems or the bank of stolen money Switzerland,

For example, -all systems have shortages of specialists and when they do have such a shortage, line ups are inevitable and if you look at the statistics lack of specialists aren't caused by not paying them enough its caused by the complexity and difficulty of these specialties and how only a few can do them because of the extra ordinary abilities it will require. In basic actuarial science  it is knwon that  the rate of occurrence of diseases like cancer, heart disease, diabetes,create the line ups or demand for services in any system  as we try predict the increase in rates and then budget for them ..i always playing catch up  game.

We also have an issue as to what kind of treatments should be approved. For example, in the UK when a man has prostate cancer, they now use lasers to cut the tumours out once they are large enough. In Canada we still use radiation. We have not moved to laser yet. So if you want laser or freezing of the tumour which then is pissed out of the body , you go to a private clinic and pay. So we do have private clinics already. You can go to private clinics for erectile dysfunction, hernia operations, laser eye surgery, cosmetic surgery.

IWhat does mediocre mean? Do any of you know? How do you and how did you define mediocre? Sorry until I see hard stats and service issue areas, the complaints are too vague and often based on subjective impressions.

I went through three ear operations and on the first I had first stage meningitis. I was never left to wait but I can say this. The nurses favoured me and treated me better because I have 

Sometimes what ails our system is not all the things you think, but lack of human kindness, compassion, caring. A caring compassionate employee of a hospital in any capacity can make anything manageable. I say that because after my experiences where I could have died, I decided to join a volunteer patient relations panel and still am on it, and I have seen first hand,. if someone is waiting for a test, they are scared. If we can hold there hand and reassure them, silly as that sounds, it can make the wait time manageable. That is of course different than a wait time that is caused by a lack of specialist. One is manageable and inevitable as there is a bottleneck as you line up for your MRI, cat can, radiation treatments, operation. The other where no specialist exists is sad because yes some die as a result. So don't get me wrong our system has limits but please differentiate between lack of specialists which is not a reflection of the system and poor budget management which may be. As for bottleneck line ups they are impossible to avoid. Its the nature of mass medical service.

Its easy being Canadian and complaining but offer specific solutions. There are people working on the problems. Its a  catch up game and they are doing their best.

Taxme please blame immigrants . It is  true we have a lot of people come to Canada to get our "mediocre" medical care under false pretenses because of the loopholes and how remaining in their country is a death sentence but in our "mediocre" system they live.

Excuse me I have traveled and volunteered in clinics overseas. I will take our mediocre system any day,. The no.1 killer of people by the way is not aids, cancer,  heart disease, its diarrhea.

Here are some solutions:

1.facilitating patient exchange between provinces

2. more coupling of hospitals where specialties are not duplicated in both hospitals

3.more active screening of persons entering emergency rooms and in fact refusing entry and re-routing to 24 hour clinics

4.more active use of volunteers, medical students

5.more emphasis on education to prevent or manage illnesses in early stages

6.development of more nurse practitioners

7.creating two streams of ambulance service, on critical incident with paramedics, the other non critical with non paramedics

8.introduction of assisted death protocol for final stage illnesses as per state of Washington syetm

9.investigation of new approaches to incorporate private and public funding of medical services

10. access and use of medical devices and services on a 24  hour basis (as is being done now with mri's)

11.use of psychology, dentistry, physiotherapy and other adjunct medical services under OHIP tp enable faster release from hosptals.

 

 

[Argus]

Mediocre is when you go to the emergency room in extreme pain and they tell you to have a seat and you'll be looked at in six or seven hours.
Mediocre is when you can't work or drive because of seizures and they don't know why but will give you a simple test in a couple of months to see what the problem is.

[Rue]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Mediocre is when you go to the emergency room in extreme pain and they tell you to have a seat and you'll be looked at in six or seven hours.
Mediocre is when you can't work or drive because of seizures and they don't know why but will give you a simple test in a couple of months to see what the problem is.

Extreme pain is often a subjective complaint.   Any system  of health  care will priorize entry based on objective criteria so that drug addicts or others abusing the system by lying or exaggerating their symptoms can't push ahead of others in an emergency clinic.

As for any testing  in  any system there are bottlenecks. I get it can cause unfortunate delays but private systems have the same problems and the idea you can jump the line if you pay more is often a myth based on the notion some of us should be more entitled if we pay more. Medical services are most often administered based on an objective point system of imminent death or peril before non life threatening.

If someone is having seizures they will be treated for the seizures which is the priority. Yes finding out underlying causes can take quite some time due to the limit of resources available. Please show me how the same bottle necks do not occur in any non public system because they do for the same reasons.

Your antectdotal complaints are genuine examples of complaints in all medical treatment systems and inherent in human nature. That is to say no no one wants to wait and everyone feels entitled to immediate attention.

Does the system need adjusting? Probably. Do people also need attitude adjustments, probably.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Rue