Brexit from the European Union.

[taxme]

On 7/26/2019 at 2:00 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Trade will go on but there will be more barriers to trade in addition to tariffs i.e. the thousands of regulations that govern EU products will be a significant obstacle. Being for English, as opposed to British, nationalism is inherently destabilizing to the UK. It's like being in favour of Albertan nationalism rather than Canadian. And the Brits are going to find out what we know already - that the Americans are extremely difficult to do deals with. Every trade deal and international agreement surrenders some sovereignty. You've gotta serve somebody...which Farage and his ilk are about to find out. 

Farage is not the fool that most people think he is. We will see what happens in the next British election as to how well The Brexit Party will do. If Johnson does leave the EU than it won't matter whether Farage wins or not.  Well, the British can always deal with Canada. We will give them a good deal that will be great for them. Canada is a loser in everything because we lack a Trump like leader in this country. Canada needs a leader who gives a dam about Canada and that idiot PM of ours is a Soros globalist boy and will do anything to please that communist globalist.

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. I think a completely open market, including freedom of labour and residence, of all the English speaking countries could achieve more than any empire in history, but then I don’t see a reason to stop at the English language.  Why not incorporate most of Europe, parts of Asia and South America?  

2. The risk of such a block is that it can create a divide between the haves and have-nots that brings other problems, unless it isn’t about a union of economically strong countries so much as a union of countries that play by fair rules on trade, labour, democratic freedom, and environmental policies that any country can join by proving the implementation and enforcement of certain standards, as long as they aren’t severe.  

3. Countries like China wouldn’t get in unless they raised their wages, currency, labour, and environmental standards.  It would curtail the offshoring of manufacturing jobs, increase the size of the middle class, and raise living standards everywhere.  It would also make real improvements on climate change and human rights internationally without making some pay while others get a free ride. 

1. Absolutely agree, as does economic orthodoxy.  Of course the Canadian Pineapple lobby will disagree with you and argue that our boys' pineapples is as Canadian as maple syrup

2. Since it's all multinationals trying to get in there, force them to follow the rich country's rules of labour except for wages. 

3.  Yes yes.  If you had labour mobility then the wage part would adjust more easily.

[Argus]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe this should be the theme of the times: 'general feeling' versus 'thinking'.  'Feelings' are valid but they shouldn't govern us. 

Unless the feeling is that you're a member of the other gender. Then it must be enforced by law.

[taxme]

On 7/24/2019 at 6:14 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

One of the lessons of Brexit is how painful bilateral trade negotiations are these days for the weaker party. Britain has the second largest economy in the EU but it will have to struggle with the US after this current ordeal is over. For smaller European countries the EU offers strength in numbers. 

The relationship between Johnson and Trump is going to be great. Both countries will work together to make sure both countries will be happy with whatever trade deals that they can come up with. Two real conservatives working together can only turn out great. And then there is Canada. A land of no hope and no good trade deals. I wonder what the relationship will be between Trump and Scheer if Scheer wins the next election? If Scheer continues to act like a liberal then things will stay as they are and they will not get any better with Trump. 

[Argus]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

But immigration levels probably won’t change under Brexit.  It will simply mean that instead of Poles and Eastern European immigrants, Britain will see more immigrants from countries of the former British Empire and current members of the Commonwealth, such as India and Pakistan.

Have you seen London lately? It's a largely non-white city filled with immigrants from India, Pakistan and the former commonwealth.

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There are clear reasons why Brexit is a mistake: Britain gives up virtually tariff free access to Europe for its exports and the ability to live and work anywhere in Europe

95% of the British did not care a fig for the ability to work elsewhere in Europe. Nor are they overly concerned with trade.

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Most of the Brits’ biggest concerns about Europe are being addressed by the EU parliament to head off further separatism: greater control over immigration

The EU's ability to control migration is virtually zilch. It bribes Turkey and North African countries to try to keep migrants from flowing to Europe, but it has virtually no ability to remove them if they arrive. If climate change hastens the drought issues in Africa and the mideast the hundreds of thousands which have come in the last few years will become millions and then tens of millions. No one thinks the EU would do anything in that event but dither and bite their fingernails.

 

[taxme]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Have you seen London lately? It's a largely non-white city filled with immigrants from India, Pakistan and the former commonwealth.

95% of the British did not care a fig for the ability to work elsewhere in Europe. Nor are they overly concerned with trade.

The EU's ability to control migration is virtually zilch. It bribes Turkey and North African countries to try to keep migrants from flowing to Europe, but it has virtually no ability to remove them if they arrive. If climate change hastens the drought issues in Africa and the mideast the hundreds of thousands which have come in the last few years will become millions and then tens of millions. No one thinks the EU would do anything in that event but dither and bite their fingernails.

 

All the Western countries in the world should all just close their borders and stop taking in millions of people that we the people are being forced to take care of and we the people do not want. It's time for some tough love and time to tell those countries mentioned above to get their own problems in order and stop dumping their problems on the Western countries of the world. It should not be the politicians telling we the people that we must accept and take in tens of thousands of refugees every year that no one really wants. Why cannot we the people have a referendum on immigration for a change? It's time for we the people to have a say as to who can come here and be able to put a stop to those pro globalist politically correct politicians that want to flood the Western countries of the world with refugees that we do not need nor want. Politicians are supposed to work for we the people, and not the other way around. It's time for we the people to get with the program. Works for me. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, taxme said:

The relationship between Johnson and Trump is going to be great. Both countries will work together to make sure both countries will be happy with whatever trade deals that they can come up with. Two real conservatives working together can only turn out great. 

I doubt that. Nationalist leaders rarely work well together for obvious reasons and any deal would have to be approved by Congress. There are already rumblings there:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-pelosi-warns-uk-not-to-jeopardise-belfast-agreement-1.3967768

I will leave it to conservatives to decide whether Trump is really one of their own. 

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

Have you seen London lately? It's a largely non-white city filled with immigrants from India, Pakistan and the former commonwealth.

95% of the British did not care a fig for the ability to work elsewhere in Europe. Nor are they overly concerned with trade.

The EU's ability to control migration is virtually zilch. It bribes Turkey and North African countries to try to keep migrants from flowing to Europe, but it has virtually no ability to remove them if they arrive. If climate change hastens the drought issues in Africa and the mideast the hundreds of thousands which have come in the last few years will become millions and then tens of millions. No one thinks the EU would do anything in that event but dither and bite their fingernails.

 

As a Brit-Canadian dual citizen, I care a great deal about my children and grandchildren having the ability to live and work anywhere in the EU, as do many Brits, including some of those who voted for Brexit as a protest vote thinking it would never come to pass.  The French are preventing illegal migrants from entering the UK.  There are reasonable filters.   I don’t see how leaving the EU vastly improves immigration.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

.... I don’t see how leaving the EU vastly improves immigration.

 

Leaving the EU is a vast improvement for stemming the flow of economic migrants and asylum seekers, including those with criminal records.

Brexit is just another chapter in the EU's larger north vs. south prosperity gap,  debt crises, and national sovereignty.  

Not everybody agrees that what you think is good for you is also good for them.

[eyeball]

33 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Leaving the EU is a vast improvement for stemming the flow of economic migrants and asylum seekers, including those with criminal records.

Stands to reason migrants would pass on moving to a country with an economic death-wish.

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Leaving the EU is a vast improvement for stemming the flow of economic migrants and asylum seekers, including those with criminal records.

Brexit is just another chapter in the EU's larger north vs. south prosperity gap,  debt crises, and national sovereignty.  

Not everybody agrees that what you think is good for you is also good for them.

Brexit is a marketing scheme that appeals to a tribal instinct to sell a false promise.  Boris Johnson will soon realize that he can’t win a better Brexit deal than May did.  Whiny parliamentarians won’t support a deal, nor will they accept a no-deal Brexit.  It just makes Britain a laughing stock.  Trump won’t come across either because the US has promised to support an open border in Ireland and they’re worried about upsetting the EU in trade negotiations.  The bigger issue is China’s ascension and Russia’s inroads.  Brexit is destabilizing for Western Europe, which is why Putin supports it.  This is the time for unity and consolidation of power in the face of threats from the east, not the time for fragmentation.  If Europe disintegrates, it will mean a return to paranoid nationalism.  Germany will no longer be contained.  It’s very stupid and unnecessary.  Most well-informed Brits see this.  

Edited July 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[kactus]

Boris Johnson makes lots of false promises. This is the  man who started a false campaign about £350 million a week for NHS by luring british voters into Brexit and then quit his job as a foreign minister and left the May’s government in disarray. How quickly we forget...

Now he claimed he could withhold the £39 billion divorce bill the British Government had agreed to pay to cover obligations the UK had committed to during membership. His whole speech is baseless and just on patriotic sentiments to win voters. Indeed he is a politician and a good entertainer but not a businessman like Trump, which is where this double partnership will fail.

[bush_cheney2004]

7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Brexit is a marketing scheme that appeals to a tribal instinct to sell a false promise.  Boris Johnson will soon realize that he can’t win a better Brexit deal than May did.  Whiny parliamentarians won’t support a deal, nor will they accept a no-deal Brexit.  It just makes Britain a laughing stock.  Trump won’t come across either because the US has promised to support an open border in Ireland and they’re worried about upsetting the EU in trade negotiations. 

 

Brexit strikes at the very heart of EU member choice and sovereignty.   If Article 50 of the treaty is meaningless, then all the more reason to go.   Brexit and many other EU troubles happened long before Trump.

 

Quote

The bigger issue is China’s ascension and Russia’s inroads.  Brexit is destabilizing for Western Europe, which is why Putin supports it.  This is the time for unity and consolidation of power in the face of threats from the east, not the time for fragmentation.  If Europe disintegrates, it will mean a return to paranoid nationalism.  Germany will no longer be contained.  It’s very stupid and unnecessary.  Most well-informed Brits see this.  

 

Sure, the world has seen just how strong the EU has been when faced with Russia's moves in the east (e.g. Georgia, Crimea).   Germany can not be "contained" any more than the economic migrants and asylum seekers that are so destabilizing and a root cause of "paranoid nationalism".    China is an ascending economic superpower that will build its Silk Road regardless of what happens with Brexit.   Anti-Americanism in Europe pre-dates Trump by many decades, so just give them more to bitch about.

Don't worry...I'm sure Canada can save Europe from itself with more virtue signaling.

 

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Brexit strikes at the very heart of EU member choice and sovereignty.   If Article 50 of the treaty is meaningless, then all the more reason to go.   Brexit and many other EU troubles happened long before Trump.

 

 

Sure, the world has seen just how strong the EU has been when faced with Russia's moves in the east (e.g. Georgia, Crimea).   Germany can not be "contained" any more than the economic migrants and asylum seekers that are so destabilizing and a root cause of "paranoid nationalism".    China is an ascending economic superpower that will build its Silk Road regardless of what happens with Brexit.   Anti-Americanism in Europe pre-dates Trump by many decades, so just give them more to bitch about.

Don't worry...I'm sure Canada can save Europe from itself with more virtue signaling.

 

This isn’t about Canada despite your hate-on for a very successful progressive country.  Germany accepted so many migrants because it’s virtuous to do so.  Was it a form of expatiation for Nazism?  Probably.  The facts are that Britain and probably all EU members have benefited from EU membership.  No doubt the EU needs amending, and it is doing so.  The Ukraine wasn’t part of the EU when Russia annexed the Crimea, and Ukraine has remained under the Russian sphere of influence, not having joined NATO or the EU.  My guess is that Putin has over and over again said that Ukraine isn’t up for grabs and the West has looked the other way.  Most of these issues could’ve been headed off if Russia was brought into NATO in the 90’s.  What we have now is Cold War light, because after the USSR disintegrated, Russia was left to pick up the pieces and the oligarchs moved in.  Sadly, they have imperial ambitions.  It’s arguable that Trump is one of them.  

Edited July 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

This isn’t about Canada despite your hate-on for a very successful progressive country.

 

Canada's present leadership has already expressed its position on Europe and Brexit, and it does not favour the UK, also a very successful and progressive country:

 

Quote

Public statements by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, the leader of the Liberal Party, suggest that he sees Canada more closely aligned with the EU27 than with the post-Brexit UK. In a speech to the European Parliament in Strasbourg in February 2017, Trudeau went out of his way to praise the EU as an exceptional economic and political partner. As the New York Times remarked in reporting on the speech, he “did not once mention Britain, the Commonwealth […] or the United States”, a fact that the paper’s correspondent interpreted as “a subtle indication, perhaps, of the reshaping of the trans-Atlantic order, and the world itself, by the political events of 2016”. By contrast, as reported in the Irish Times, Trudeau used a press conference during a visit to Ireland in June 2017 to accuse the UK (and the US) of “turning inward or at least turning in a different direction” than Canada, which he described as being “exciting and open to the world in a positive, progressive way”. All of this suggests that Brexit, along with the Trump Presidency, has made Canada’s current government more, rather than less, appreciative of the importance of the EU as a like-minded partner on a broad range of policy files, well beyond CETA.

http://dcubrexitinstitute.eu/2018/10/perceptions-of-brexit-in-canada-transatlantic-relations-and-domestic-politics/

 

Trudeau is in the bag for continued globalization, open borders, and unlimited immigration/asylum, the very opposite of Brexit.

It is very easy to get a "hate-on" for policies like that.

Edited July 28, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

22 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada's present leadership has already expressed its position on Europe and Brexit, and it does not favour the UK:

 

 

Trudeau is in the bag for continued globalization, open borders, and unlimited immigration/asylum, the very opposite of Brexit.

It is very easy to get a "hate-on" for policies like that.

Well some of that is interpretation.  Don’t forget that Trudeau is from Quebec and has made quite Québécois nationalist statements in the past.  Quebec tends to align itself with France more than Britain, though the French sold out Quebec for sugar in Guadeloupe and fishing rights off minuscule Ste Pierre and Michelon. The historic record is clear, however, that Quebec stuck by the Brits even when the Americans stood in Montreal offering an out during the War of 1812.  Lord Nelson towers over Old Montreal much as he does in Trafalgar Square.  Anyway, Trudeau is too left wing and into identity politics for my liking.  His image and brand aren’t bad for Canada until you see how he’s made Canadians feel like they need to apologize more than they were already doing.  

With regard to Brexit and immigration, since that seems to be what Brexit is mostly about, immigrants have to apply for citizenship and passports.  Britain has to allow them to become British.  While it’s true that citizens of other EU countries can live and work in the UK, it’s yet another step for immigrants to those countries to take to move to the UK.  They tend to be Eastern Europeans, mostly Poles, who are fairly low profile and hard working.  People in northern England were complaining about immigration long before EU membership.  Most of that immigration was from non-white Commonwealth counties.  It’s no secret that Indian food has become an English staple, like Italian food in North America.  

Edited July 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Anyway, Trudeau is too left wing and into identity politics for my liking.  His image and brand aren’t bad for Canada until you see how he’s made Canadians feel like they need to apologize more than they were already doing. 

 

You have already expressed your opinion of Trudeau elsewhere, but this thread is about Brexit, and the current PM of Canada and his party are in the bag for the EU and what it stands for.   The UK will just have to get by without Trudeau and his ilk, an easy task.

One would have at least expected a more diplomatic support for whatever the British people decided, but that is not the case here.   Trudeau wants to continue the march of globalization and open borders.

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You have already expressed your opinion of Trudeau elsewhere, but this thread is about Brexit, and the current PM of Canada and his party are in the bag for the EU and what it stands for.   The UK will just have to get by without Trudeau and his ilk, an easy task.

One would have at least expected a more diplomatic support for whatever the British people decided, but that is not the case here.   Trudeau wants to continue the march of globalization and open borders.

 

 

That’s pretty partisan stuff.  While Trudeau has been a bit reckless on immigration in terms of rolling out the welcome mat without providing the provinces with enough support for housing, education, and services, Canada and Britain’s closeness is always a given.  While the Brits sometimes make funny assumptions about Canadian fervour for the Queen and the trappings of the British Empire, we know who our allies are.  America is there too, as is France.  I’m commenting on Brexit as a part-Brit.  Open borders served Europe and Britain well within the EU.  Imagine borders between your states.  The mass migrations that have been underway are not so much interstate problems between the countries in Europe as the issue of entry within the EU itself, not wholly dissimilar to the pressures the US faces from economic/political migrants from Central and South America.  Such problems won’t be alleviated by walls because the demand for a better life will remain as long as poverty and political problems persist in those countries.  That’s why ultimately we have to help these countries improve living standards.  We used to be good at this.  Mortality rates, education, and living standards have improved worldwide, but there are pressure points, climate change and resource distribution in particular.  

Brexit is partly based on the idea that by shutting out the outside world, Britain will be great again, as though the food rationing of the war, the heavy taxation of the old Labour Party, and the dissolution of the Empire never happened.  The loss of the British auto industry in Coventry is another oft-cited EU-related problem, yet this started before the EU and Brits are quite happy making German cars rather than none at all.  Ironically France, a more pro EU country, has maintained more of its auto industry and certainly protects French culture and agriculture.  To some extent Britain shares the sentimental frustration that Russia feels.  Once exploratory, expansive, and trendsetting, Britain has shrunk and had to cut her cloth to fit.  The US may experience this with China.  So what to do about it?  I do know that closing the door is the wrong way to go.  China declined after expanding the Great Wall.  Money follows the freest exchange of goods, services, and ideas.  Broadening trade and freedom of movement is almost always better, as long as fair rules and security measures are in place.  

I just visited the British Museum and read about the great early civilizations.  The Indus Valley civilization literally disappeared from history for 2000 years before it was unearthed.  Emperor Constantine was crowned in York and came to lead the largest empire in history at that time.  The Roman Empire fell into the Dark Ages.  

The only things that persist are useful and inspiring ideas and technology.  Nationhood rises and declines and changes.  Britain’s greatness today is not its dead empire but its contributions to and engagement with other countries.  

Edited July 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 ...The only things that persist are useful and inspiring ideas and technology.  Nationhood rises and declines and changes.  Britain’s greatness today is not its dead empire but its contributions to and engagement with other countries.  

 

And yet, Commonwealth nations remain united for whatever purpose that serves without the need for EU membership.   Canada, Australia, United States, Brazil, India, and China have not sought to surrender sovereignty to a larger union, but still thrive nevertheless.    The EU has some serious problems, particularly in the south...the soft/weak underbelly of Europe and gateway for economic migrants and refugees.   Post world war deadbeat Germany now beats up on Greece for austerity and concessions.

If Article 50 is not respected, then the EU treaty should fall for those who also want out to escape the drag of debt and cultural chaos. 

[Zeitgeist]

41 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

And yet, Commonwealth nations remain united for whatever purpose that serves without the need for EU membership.   Canada, Australia, United States, Brazil, India, and China have not sought to surrender sovereignty to a larger union, but still thrive nevertheless.    The EU has some serious problems, particularly in the south...the soft/weak underbelly of Europe and gateway for economic migrants and refugees.   Post world war deadbeat Germany now beats up on Greece for austerity and concessions.

If Article 50 is not respected, then the EU treaty should fall for those who also want out to escape the drag of debt and cultural chaos. 

I do think the EU should devolve more power to its members and shrink its government.  I also think it was wise of Britain to keep her currency and central bank.  I’m afraid that there may have to be a new form of graduated immigration that has a residential territory requirement, for a period of say, five years, to prevent mass migrations to a few countries.  It would require living in one or a limited few neighboring countries for a period before full citizenship is granted.  I think it’s the only way to stabilize immigration flows, to keep them at a level countries can manage, provide security, and allow countries to chart more of their own course on immigration.  I would support this in Canada to target settlement and development of the north and areas that need human resources the most.  It would also make it easier to implement fair distribution of refugees in times of international crisis.  

Also, I agree that Britain has the right to insert a border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.  Just keep in mind that Britain may lose Northern Ireland in the process.  If it doesn’t, it’s still bad for Irish unity.  

Edited July 29, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

The top three destinations for British emigres are not even EU members....Canada, Australia, United States...people voting with their feet.

This speaks volumes about the underlying social and cultural divide between Europe and island UK.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

The top three destinations for British emigres are not even EU members....Canada, Australia, United States...people voting with their feet.

This speaks volumes about the underlying social and cultural divide between Europe and island UK.

Yes but they love getting the cheap wine and cheese from France and Italy and having second homes in places like Spain’s Costa Del Sol or Italy’s Amalfi Coast.  Many like to go to school or work for a while in parts of Europe.  

[bush_cheney2004]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes but they love getting the cheap wine and cheese from France and Italy and having second homes in places like Spain’s Costa Del Sol or Italy’s Amalfi Coast.  Many like to go to school or work for a while in parts of Europe.  

 

But when they've had enough of the other crap, they leave, and Europe is not the top choice.

[egghead]

On 7/27/2019 at 5:20 AM, Zeitgeist said:

But immigration levels probably won’t change under Brexit.  .........

You may be right, nothings changed. However, you completely misread it.  People voted Brexit is becasue of the border control.

Edited July 29, 2019 by egghead

[SpankyMcFarland]

Johnson is a man who is unwilling to answer a simple question regarding how many children he has. He’s an entertainer and should never have been given the job of PM. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by SpankyMcFarland