Brexit from the European Union.

[Iceni warrior]

The only court which trumps the British courts is the European Court of Human Rights.

Newsflash, the ECHR has nothing to do with the EU and Brexit will make no difference to its supremacy over British law.

 

[Iceni warrior]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Boy, you've sure trotted out all the talking points. Are you reading them off a card or something?

 

Huh?

Those were the 4 points you raised yourself.

Ps The UK is actually short of immigrant labour now and it has had serious consequences to key industries such as agriculture and healthcare.

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Iceni warrior

[Zeitgeist]

13 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

Huh?

Those were the 4 points you raised yourself.

Ps The UK is actually short of immigrant labour now and it has had serious consequences to key industries such as agriculture and healthcare.

 

I agree that leaving the EU has many negative consequences, but I think many native-born Brits are growing weary of going places like the supermarket and discovering that the people around them don’t understand British expressions or share the same broad perspectives.  It’s the feeling of finding oneself a stranger in one’s own land.  It’s not racism but the anxiety of a people who feel that their culture is being overwhelmed by forces of change that they didn’t sign up for.  The US response has been to close the door on refugees and tighten up immigration enforcement, which has had some unfavourable consequences.  
 

In Canada the welcome mat has been rolled out to refugees.  It’s fine until economic hardship arrives, at which point the finger pointing starts.  But what does economic success look like?  In Canada the economy is growing, but so has the cost of living, especially for housing.  The massive influx of new residents has helped drive up housing costs, and any attempt to curtail that influx will raise accusations of racism or excessive government control.  There has to be some middle ground.  

[bush_cheney2004]

27 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 The US response has been to close the door on refugees and tighten up immigration enforcement, which has had some unfavourable consequences. 

 

The current US "response" is actually very consistent with the past based on policies influenced by conditions...it is not new.   The door is not closed to refugees in the US, but fewer are now accepted, similar to past reductions.   Unlike the US and Canada, the EU (including the UK) faced an uncontrolled influx of numerous refugees, with no equivalent ability to stop them.

 

[Zeitgeist]

29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The current US "response" is actually very consistent with the past based on policies influenced by conditions...it is not new.   The door is not closed to refugees in the US, but fewer are now accepted, similar to past reductions.   Unlike the US and Canada, the EU (including the UK) faced an uncontrolled influx of numerous refugees, with no equivalent ability to stop them.

 

That’s why it’s hard to get judgemental about US immigration/refugee policy and Brexit, because the consequences of mass immigration are being felt there sooner.  At some point mainstream Canada will feel more protective of the country and will realize that trying to reverse course is almost a no win situation, because a society dominated by newcomers may be content to let go of traditions and allow overcrowding, since this type of society is still an improvement on where they came from.  Overcrowding is the norm in the cities of developing countries.  The compelling argument for Brexit is to regain control of the country before it’s too late.  Europe is overrun.  You can see it on the beaches of Belgium and in the streets of Paris.  The authorities are in damage control on security, cultural cohesion, and paying for public services.   Brexiters are fleeing from that.  

Edited December 28, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[-TSS-]

This is not going to go away post-Brexit. Then the remainers will become rejoiners and the leavers will become, well outstayers for a lack of a better word, but if you think this is going to be over in late January you are in for a surprise, pleasant or unpleasant depending on your pov on the issue.

[Marocc]

On 12/28/2019 at 7:37 PM, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not racism but the anxiety of a people who feel that their culture is being overwhelmed by forces of change that they didn’t sign up for.  

If it isn't racism or prejudice, it is certainly stupidity. Adult people behaving with other people like three-year-olds behave at a dinner table.

No, you do not have the freedom to choose who goes to the same supermarket as you do or who rides the same bus as you do. And no, you were never meant to have that freedom. If the realization makes you unhappy, then you were unhappy already to begin with.

On 12/28/2019 at 8:40 PM, Zeitgeist said:

because a society dominated by newcomers

Which society, supposedly?

On 12/28/2019 at 8:40 PM, Zeitgeist said:

since this type of society is still an improvement on where they came from.  

Because they all 'come from the same society',...... Supposedly.

Some people think their own country is the size of the universe with infinite different communities and opportunities while the countries on the other side of the world are the size of Monaco and the people therein incapable of individual judgment or problem solving.

On 12/28/2019 at 8:40 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Brexiters are fleeing from that.  

Brexiters want the Mula, that is all.

[scribblet]

It is not racism to want a stable and organized immigration rate tied to the economy and the needs of the country.   Community stability, social order and an orderly pace is far more desirable than allowing in swarms of invaders landing on your beaches who are given benefits and health care, a reason the U.K.  NHS is under so much stress.  People in the U.K. want control over their own borders. 

Paris is burning again, cultural enrichers  are rioting in Ireland, Belgium, Sweden and elsewhere so along with uncontrolled migration comes social and political costs/upheaval which should be accounted for but is not.   When people ask for an accounting they are called racist etc.   There is nothing wrong with expecting your gov't to keep you safe and control borders, they are not so how can you blame people for wanting that control and a stable society.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/david-frum-how-much-immigration-is-too-much/583252/

In November 2018, Hillary Clinton told the Guardian  that mass immigration was weakening democracy. “I think Europe needs to get a handle on migration, because that is what lit the flame,” —   ‘We are not going to be able to continue to provide refuge and support’— because if we don’t deal with the migration issue, it will continue to roil the body politic.”

[kactus]

On 1/2/2020 at 2:42 PM, scribblet said:

NHS is under so much stress. 

 

The reason NHS in UK is in so much dire is not because of immigration but lack of investment by the government......Regardless of the immigration policy the Tory government is encouraging individuals to take a private health care and inevitably release pressure on an already under funded establishment......It is funny when BoJo pledges recruitment of 50k additional nurses by 2025 it is a lie!!! The man has been full of lies and deception and an insult to the NHS. So spare me your propaganda machine with blaming NHS fiasco squarely on immigration. 

[Zeitgeist]

On 1/2/2020 at 8:43 AM, Marocc said:

If it isn't racism or prejudice, it is certainly stupidity. Adult people behaving with other people like three-year-olds behave at a dinner table.

No, you do not have the freedom to choose who goes to the same supermarket as you do or who rides the same bus as you do. And no, you were never meant to have that freedom. If the realization makes you unhappy, then you were unhappy already to begin with.

Which society, supposedly?

Because they all 'come from the same society',...... Supposedly.

Some people think their own country is the size of the universe with infinite different communities and opportunities while the countries on the other side of the world are the size of Monaco and the people therein incapable of individual judgment or problem solving.

Brexiters want the Mula, that is all.

I’m not denying that there is jingoism and racism afoot in Brexit.  I’m a Remoaner.  It doesn’t matter.  The people want what they want.  What you need to realize is, just like in any community, there is polite conversation fit for public consumption and then there is the real conversation behind closed doors.  Brits know that their laws protect minority rights and that there is no keeping people away from supermarkets or anywhere else, so one way the nativists can win what they want is simply not to let so many people into the country.  Trump went further and tried to have a complete Muslim ban that was unconstitutional.  The issue isn’t what you or I think but what the majority of people think and will accept.  

Of course the source countries of immigrants are all different and not all are poor or backwards.  Generally, people are coming to Britain, Canada, and America for a better life than they left behind.  What might not seem like a big deal to someone from India or Somalia, a city with overcrowded slums, won’t be as acceptable to people who never had to experience such conditions.   For a newcomer there isn’t necessarily the same connection to the traditional society.  Again, I’m not saying that’s bad, but it can lead to a conflict of perspectives.  There is no such thing as neutral territory.  There’s a British history to contend with.  In some ways it’s easier in a newer country like Canada to accommodate change, yet even there, if change comes too fast and furious, there will be pushback.  

[-TSS-]

This is not going to end in two weeks time. There will be fierce attempts to force another referendum to rejoin. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Brexit is only starting. Either way the British economy will do OK but why put your country through painful negotiations with the US, China and the EU etc. when there are so many other pressing issues to address? The Brits are going to have a truly Canadian experience here and they’re not going to like it. 

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 The Brits are going to have a truly Canadian experience here and they’re not going to like it. 

I think I understood your post up until this sentence.  Explain ?

[kactus]

There’s no silver lining that tells us Brexit will do well for all the brits and no doubt the middle and working class will take the heat in the first couple of years.....When you don’t have the EU as a major trading partner then of course you will have to give “brownie points” to Americans, Chinese and commonwealth to make up for the loss of EU trade. This of course depends  on how negotiations will unfold with EU over the next 11 months before UK becomes autonomous from EU....

[Argus]

On 1/5/2020 at 4:51 PM, kactus said:

The reason NHS in UK is in so much dire is not because of immigration but lack of investment by the government......

If you bring in hordes of poor, unskilled people who, under progressive taxation, pay no income tax, then you will inevitably face problems paying for the public services they require. For example, just 1 in 5 British adult Muslims is working. The rest, presumably, collect social services. They all, however, will need health care.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Argus

[Iceni warrior]

36 minutes ago, Argus said:

If you bring in hordes of poor, unskilled people who, under progressive taxation, pay no income tax, then you will inevitably face problems paying for the public services they require. For example, just 1 in 5 British adult Muslims is working. The rest, presumably, collect social services. They all, however, will need health care.

Except, you don't need to pay income tax to contribute to the treasury. There is a tax on almost everything you buy. EU immigrants contribute more to the treasury than they take in welfare and services they are a net financial benefit. They are mostly young and fit so their burden on the healthcare system is small.

Oh and those coming from Europe are not generally Muslims. Most of the Muslim migrants to the UK are from outside the EU from places like Pakistan so are not affected by Brexit.

Also, the NHS is reliant on imigrant workers to fill the vaccancies and these people are not unskilled. In fact it is their skills which make them so valuable to the NHS.

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Iceni warrior

[Marocc]

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

just 1 in 5 British adult Muslims is working

Wasn't that the number that referred to those who have a full time contract?

[SpankyMcFarland]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think I understood your post up until this sentence.  Explain ?

They’re going to find out what it’s like to be a medium-sized country negotiating with behemoths like China, the EU and the US. 

[-TSS-]

Now Britain is out. It is official. It didn't need to get to this point. The EU could have remained as a trading-block instead of a political union. Britain joined the common-market in the first place to be part of the single-market, not a European super-state.

[kactus]

8 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

Except, you don't need to pay income tax to contribute to the treasury. There is a tax on almost everything you buy. EU immigrants contribute more to the treasury than they take in welfare and services they are a net financial benefit. They are mostly young and fit so their burden on the healthcare system is small.

Oh and those coming from Europe are not generally Muslims. Most of the Muslim migrants to the UK are from outside the EU from places like Pakistan so are not affected by Brexit.

Also, the NHS is reliant on imigrant workers to fill the vaccancies and these people are not unskilled. In fact it is their skills which make them so valuable to the NHS.

 

Exactly! A large proportion of NHS nurses and staff in UK are immigrants predominantly from non EU countries and they have done a fantastic job to keep it going.

[-TSS-]

If I were British I would have supported Brexit wholeheartedly. However, I wouldn't recommend a similar arrangement for Finland. After all, Britain is Britain and Finland is Finland.

Many of my fellow Finns would call me a coward or a sheep to take a stance like this. Perhaps they are right.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

They’re going to find out what it’s like to be a medium-sized country negotiating with behemoths like China, the EU and the US. 

Ah, I see.  Yes - good point.  I don't understand why they didn't cover their bases in the original referendum by phrasing it 'renegotiate' or somesuch.  Oh well.   It will be a great exercise for economics study that's for sure.

[Iceni warrior]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ah, I see.  Yes - good point.  I don't understand why they didn't cover their bases in the original referendum by phrasing it 'renegotiate' or somesuch.  Oh well.   It will be a great exercise for economics study that's for sure.

Strictly speaking, the referendum was advisory and had no power in law to enforce the result.

The campaign was very short, a mere 6 weeks, which meant that the consequences of leaving were poorly understood. The British public were asked whether they wanted to leave their home of 44 years with little idea of what their new home was going to be like.

Lies were told, promises were broken and many politicians used it as a way to advance their own careers rather than inform the public as to what leaving would mean in practise.

The country has been divided in a way that has never been seen before and that division is not going to be healed any time soon.

Hate crimes against immigrants have risen and an MP known for her support of diversity was murdered by a far right nationalist.

It is far from being over too, the lengthy trade negotiations have only just begun and the degree of regulatory alignment with the EU still has to be decided.

Investment in the British economy has suffered from the uncertainty caused and the pound has been severely weakened.

So yeah, It will be a great exercise for economics study but the consequences will be very real for the UK's citizens.

[OftenWrong]

20 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

They’re going to find out what it’s like to be a medium-sized country negotiating with behemoths like China, the EU and the US. 

The dependence on others is the very reason they wanted Brexit. They are willing to pay that price.

[OftenWrong]

5 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Strictly speaking, the referendum was advisory and had no power in law to enforce the result.

Wow, you must be a goddam genius. Someone tell the British. Oh wait... too late.