GM packing its bags in Oshawa

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s a silly game you’re playing.  Whether or not you have more plants proportionally than Canada I don’t know.  Salvage what you can. 

 

Well, I know that Canada is the only G-7 nation without a major, domestically owned car make.  

Foreigners make the decisions about where their operations will be located, not the union faithful in Ontario.

Shut it all down if they want.

[cannuck]

On 12/3/2018 at 9:41 PM, Zeitgeist said:

What are you talking about?  Toronto-based Magna has four EV plants in the US

Yes, GM has an EV tech facility in Markham, Ontario, but the workers are almost all engineers and techies, the privileged.  The same pattern is being followed in the US.  Many fewer works yet more cars sold...

Those engineers and techs EARNED that privilege by going to school to learn to be engineers and techies.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, cannuck said:

Those engineers and techs EARNED that privilege by going to school to learn to be engineers and techies.

I was going to disagree with you, but I find I disagree with Zeitgiest more.  These are simply skills you develop to sell yourself on the market.  If you can't/won't then you have a different, more common skill set.  The government's job is to mind the economy somewhat, but sometimes it just can't.

[bush_cheney2004]

This auto-worker family gets it.....the party is over...again.

The life of an autoworker has traditionally had ups and downs, but there might not be another 'up'

[Rue]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s a silly game you’re playing.  Whether or not you have more plants proportionally than Canada I don’t know.  Salvage what you can. 

Bush is not playing the game, the global economy is. Don't give Bush-C any more power than is necessary thank you.

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

I was going to disagree with you, but I find I disagree with Zeitgiest more.  These are simply skills you develop to sell yourself on the market.  If you can't/won't then you have a different, more common skill set.  The government's job is to mind the economy somewhat, but sometimes it just can't.

The government's job SHOULD be to provide a stable, equitable and fair set of rules and enforcement, NOT to interfere in the marketplace by picking winners and losers by interference - which is what our government (and the US, I should add) does constantly.  Unions of course are the antithesis of free markets.  Just as do government employees, they believe that they should be entitled to a free ride by the granting of privilege (by government) to forcibly keep their jobs.  Bass Ackwards.

Government employees are largely the least ambitious, most entitled people in the workforce.  By their very nature they are the LAST people in the world you would want running anything but the shithouse - and they would probably make that prohibitively expensive and totally non functional.

People in today's increasingly more technical workplace need to realize that the need for unskilled assembly workers is not great and decreasing daily.  Either move up or move out.  There should be no special provision to accommodate those who believe the are owed a job and a living.  Most of all, there is no place for envy of those who have had the sense and made the effort to be able to meet modern demands in their industry.

Edited December 5, 2018 by cannuck

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

The government's job SHOULD be to provide a stable, equitable and fair set of rules and enforcement, NOT to interfere in the marketplace by picking winners and losers by interference - which is what our government (and the US, I should add) does constantly.  Unions of course are the antithesis of free markets.  Just as do government employees, they believe that they should be entitled to a free ride by the granting of privilege (by government) to forcibly keep their jobs.  Bass Ackwards.

What you say is true, Canada should stop copying the US and take care of itself. We should be encouraged to build for ourselves and then export the excess, now we are actually giving away our resources. 

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Government employees are largely the least ambitious, most entitled people in the workforce.  By their very nature they are the LAST people in the world you would want running anything but the shithouse - and they would probably make that prohibitively expensive and totally non functional.

It is like any organization, there are the minions and there are the individuals that actually get things done, remember, we elect their bosses. 

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

People in today's increasingly more technical workplace need to realize that the need for unskilled assembly workers is not great and decreasing daily.  Either move up or move out.  There should be no special provision to accommodate those who believe the are owed a job and a living.  Most of all, there is no place for envy of those who have had the sense and made the effort to be able to meet modern demands in their industry.

Not everybody can or wants to be a techie in a cubical. We are actually going backwards if our technology is making life more complicated.

How much time do you waste troubleshooting your technology? 

Think about it... 

[cannuck]

In private business, we dump the ones who are non productive, screwups, thieves, etc.   In government (and much union) they are promoted and protected, even celebrated.   The real issue is that the vast majority of things government does they have no business doing (reference Erik Nielsen).

As far as troubleshooting technology: that is my "day job" for largest client.  Our "techies" are not in cubicles, they are out in the field keeping the lights on for industry in North America (until the "white picket fence" syndrome - i.e. marriage and family takes them out of the field).  In most industry, the time spent fixing the technology is what makes the productivity and infrastructure services that provides incredible lifestyle we all get to enjoy.

[Zeitgeist]

14 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, I know that Canada is the only G-7 nation without a major, domestically owned car make.  

Foreigners make the decisions about where their operations will be located, not the union faithful in Ontario.

Shut it all down if they want.

We have many non-unionized auto workers.  We've discussed Canadian auto parts/car maker Magna.  Stop being a troll.  I could say the same for all of the Magna jobs in the US and all foreign car companies that employ Americans, "Shut it all down if they want."  Stop being a troll.  You're mean spirited.

[Zeitgeist]

12 hours ago, cannuck said:

Those engineers and techs EARNED that privilege by going to school to learn to be engineers and techies.

I don't deny for a second that these capable engineers worked hard to get where they are and have earned their place.  My point is that engineers and computer techs represent a small segment of the population.  What about everyone else?  Basically if you're not highly skilled/educated in this brave new world, good luck. 

[cannuck]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don't deny for a second that these capable engineers worked hard to get where they are and have earned their place.  My point is that engineers and computer techs represent a small segment of the population.  What about everyone else?  Basically if you're not highly skilled/educated in this brave new world, good luck. 

There have always been professionals, technologists, technicians and labourers in every manufacturing process.   The difference is: so many of the "worker bees" were demanding to be paid better than the queen bee that they killed off the hive.   Now that automation is taking over so much, the jobs have simply shifted to one of building and maintaining automation.   Yes, this brave new world needs a LOT more skill and education for participants.  As I said: you must either move up or move out (to WalMart greeting jobs).

[turningrite]

17 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is doing remarkably well compared to the vast majority of countries, but current corporate trends are starving the middle class.  Government has borrowed money to prop up the middle class.  It’s as simple as this: Good incomes make good markets.  Low incomes shrink markets.  No doubt the upper classes are doing great. Will they buy all the homes, cars, and devices companies produce?  You better hope so. 

Actually, Canada is not doing particularly well. According to polling, fewer than half of Canadians now identify themselves as belonging to the middle class - down from 70 percent less than two decades ago - and many are only hanging on to that designation by carrying substantial debt. Canadian public policy is aimed at masking the true costs of corporate globalization. Governments increasingly hide our economic problems behind a subsidy system that eventually we won't be able to afford to maintain. The officially reported unemployment rate is low but doesn't reflect relatively stagnant wages and a declining labour market participation rate (i.e. the percentage of working age people who are engaged in the workforce), suggesting that the unemployment rate is no longer a reliable indicator of economic health or stress. That record numbers languish on social housing waiting lists, homelessness is rampant in our largest cities, child poverty rates remain high and the health care system is on life support in much of the country suggests that all is not well in the la la land of sunny Justin. The fact that we're subsidizing people merely to raise their children illustrates the extent of the failure.

There is no longer any realistic relationship between incomes and living costs. I believe that one U.S. study illustrated that rents have risen by something in the range of 40 to 50 percent in excess of inflation since the 1970s and home ownership costs have risen by more than 70 percent in excess of inflation over the same period. The situation in many of Canada's large urban centres, and particularly in the heavily immigration-impacted Toronto and Vancouver regions, is likely much worse. Trudeau babbles on about the middle class when he has no apparent understanding of its actual plight and concerns. He's an empty suit who's more obsessed by image than he is interested in substance and is more concerned about satisfying party donors and Lib-leaning lobbyists than he is about ordinary Canadians who don't have access to trust funds.

Edited December 5, 2018 by turningrite

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We have many non-unionized auto workers.  We've discussed Canadian auto parts/car maker Magna.  Stop being a troll.  I could say the same for all of the Magna jobs in the US and all foreign car companies that employ Americans, "Shut it all down if they want."  Stop being a troll.  You're mean spirited.

 

Sorry, but economics is often that way by design.   Americans have already lost more auto sector jobs than Canadians, and there actually are U.S. auto makes.   Whining about it is not very helpful, as it just delays moving on to the next thing.

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, cannuck said:

The government's job SHOULD be to provide a stable, equitable and fair set of rules and enforcement, NOT to interfere in the marketplace by picking winners and losers by interference - which is what our government (and the US, I should add) does constantly.  Unions of course are the antithesis of free markets.  Just as do government employees, they believe that they should be entitled to a free ride by the granting of privilege (by government) to forcibly keep their jobs.  Bass Ackwards.

In a black and white world that would be very easy.  Economics is an art as well as a science.  Private unions were weakened decades ago and are not a major force any more.  Do you think seniors should be helped ?  Millennials ?  Stable ?  Equitable ? Fair ?

Quote

Government employees are largely the least ambitious, most entitled people in the workforce.  By their very nature they are the LAST people in the world you would want running anything but the shithouse - and they would probably make that prohibitively expensive and totally non functional.

Yes, you are a fan of economics by 'virtue'.  As such, why don't you pay every money manager minimum wage, because they basically all sit on their asses and sell the same product ?  And government employees don't RUN anything - the deputy ministers do, and it's because why don't demand a better system... because we can't imagine one.

Quote

People in today's increasingly more technical workplace need to realize that the need for unskilled assembly workers is not great and decreasing daily.  Either move up or move out.  There should be no special provision to accommodate those who believe the are owed a job and a living.  Most of all, there is no place for envy of those who have had the sense and made the effort to be able to meet modern demands in their industry.

These people who believe they are entitled will vote in leaders who pump up their egos and promise manufacturing jobs....

Edited December 5, 2018 by Michael Hardner

[cannuck]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

In a black and white world that would be very easy.  Economics is an art as well as a science.  Private unions were weakened decades ago and are not a major force any more.  Do you think seniors should be helped ?  Millennials ?  Stable ?  Equitable ? Fair ?.

Economics fails virtually every test as a "science".  It has become a tool for the banksters to train people to nod their heads mindlessly and calculate shit that is NOT part of the actual economy (i.e. speculative activity).  The only thing more intellectually dishonest than an economist would be a civil engineer dumb enough to put steel in concrete.

Helped how?  Do you mean just throw money at the problem?   The real issue is how much housing costs have increased - mostly be cause we give a free ride on the tax system to the speculative gains of real estate activity.  Tax the shit out of such gains, and all of a sudden real estate costs will subside into reality that people might be able to afford.

Edited December 6, 2018 by cannuck

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, cannuck said:

Helped how?  Do you mean just throw money at the problem?   The real issue is how much housing costs have increased - mostly be cause we give a free ride on the tax system to the speculative gains of real estate activity.  Tax the shit out of such gains, and all of a sudden real estate costs will subside into reality that people might be able to afford.

You usually help people by giving them money, yes.  So you can tax the 'shit' out of gains but a lot of boomers are living in their retirement plan.

[cannuck]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You usually help people by giving them money, yes.  So you can tax the 'shit' out of gains but a lot of boomers are living in their retirement plan.

Giving people "money for nothing" is not helping them, it is creating a culture of dependence and entitlement.   I would much rather reduce real world costs to have the same effect.   Investment would stop with big tax on speculative gains, it would simply go back to where it belongs - investing in productive enterprises than can earn a profit and pay a dividend.  Once you kill off speculation, you kill off the main driver behind inflation.

[eyeball]

It's great to see so many people who spent years laughing their silly asses off at the fear of globalization crying like babies now.

Hopefully they'll live long enough to regret laughing their stupid assess off at climate "alarmism".

Of course it's telling that the real success of globalization, the chase to the bottom, is now being blamed on the usual suspects. I guess it remains to be seen how they'll pin the blame for climate change on the left but it will be. My words on that can be marked just like they could have been marked 20 years ago when I was whining about globalization.

All I can say now is lol.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Giving people "money for nothing" is not helping them, it is creating a culture of dependence and entitlement.   I would much rather reduce real world costs to have the same effect.   Investment would stop with big tax on speculative gains, it would simply go back to where it belongs - investing in productive enterprises than can earn a profit and pay a dividend.  Once you kill off speculation, you kill off the main driver behind inflation.

Allowing speculation to thrive isn't giving people money for nothing.  It doesn't matter, I agree with your evil job killing tax.

[Rue]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

Economics fails virtually every test as a "science".  It has become a tool for the banksters to train people to nod their heads mindlessly and calculate shit that is NOT part of the actual economy (i.e. speculative activity).  The only thing more intellectually dishonest than an economist would be a civil engineer dumb enough to put steel in concrete.

Helped how?  Do you mean just throw money at the problem?   The real issue is how much housing costs have increased - mostly be cause we give a free ride on the tax system to the speculative gains of real estate activity.  Tax the shit out of such gains, and all of a sudden real estate costs will subside into reality that people might be able to afford.

Its not a science no. It can be quite subjective depending on who is explaining it yes. I guess its akin to a social science with lots of math?  Some theories can be objectively proven others can not. No I would not call Marxist economic theory science nor would I call supply and demand theories infallible, no of course not. I do think we all need to improve our understanding of economics though to understand how its used to manipulate us especially as consumers.

[Rue]

54 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's great to see so many people who spent years laughing their silly asses off at the fear of globalization crying like babies now.

Hopefully they'll live long enough to regret laughing their stupid assess off at climate "alarmism".

Of course it's telling that the real success of globalization, the chase to the bottom, is now being blamed on the usual suspects. I guess it remains to be seen how they'll pin the blame for climate change on the left but it will be. My words on that can be marked just like they could have been marked 20 years ago when I was whining about globalization.

All I can say now is lol.

I am not sure what that means. Globalism means what? It was at one point called colonialism. At one point it was called discovering new lands and exploiting the natives or killing them off with syphilis. Globalism, or the movement of goods and transactions across borders has been around a long time. Its done good and bad things. To write it all off as bad is as pointless as saying its all been good, its of course a bit of both.

You and I do not agree on much but we both are aware when mega-corporations get too big, say like Dow Chemical, their GDP's are far larger than most countries and they can use their extreme power and financial strength to move into countries and control their businesses in environments where they do not have to worry about environmental and labour laws like they would in Canada.

However even in Canada Dow is so powerful it runs its own show in Sarnia. It is basically a self ruling nation.

Those kind of huge Colgate-Palmolive, Coca-Cola, Dow, Dupont, type mega nationals control governments. They employ millions upon millions and they have vast networks of intelligence and influence. Is everything they do bad? Well I leave that to you. I think they do good and bad things.

I am also concerned about organized crime syndicates who launder their money using legitimate businesses. Banks could not and would not survive without laundering the money of organized criminals and sheltering the money of corrupt politicians.

I get that. I get all the conspiracy stories about the illuminati, Satanist bankers, new world orders, Bohemian Grove Members. Yah yah yah but global trade is a reality. We use it to help the poor or exploit the masses. The choice begins and ends at what you choose to  buy. Its always been there.

 

[Guest]

Globalization was like colonialism only in that it was absolutely inevitable.  It couldn't not happen, once we all knew about everyone else and had the technology to reach them.  In that respect, it's also just like climate change.

Edited December 6, 2018 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

 I get all the conspiracy stories about the illuminati, Satanist bankers, new world orders, Bohemian Grove Members. 

I don't know wtf these are never mind what they have to do with anything but it explains a lot that you get them.

You get chem-trails too?

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

10 hours ago, cannuck said:

In private business, we dump the ones who are non productive, screwups, thieves, etc.   In government (and much union) they are promoted and protected, even celebrated.   The real issue is that the vast majority of things government does they have no business doing (reference Erik Nielsen).

LOL, it was a private business worker that sent my crate England to Mexico only to have to ship it back to England because it didn't fit in the plane to forward to Canada. It was a private business worker from another company that quoted me six times the rate I got to ship said package as well. It is engineers in a private business that can't stop the muffler brackets from breaking on a new peice of equipment I own, it is two private businesses that can't figure out the electronic sequencing on other new equipment I own. It was a private business that tried to charge me three times the quoted price to do work I requested. 

Government isn't the only organization with the people you describe, they are everywhere, at every level of education and in every position. 

Quote

As far as troubleshooting technology: that is my "day job" for largest client.  Our "techies" are not in cubicles, they are out in the field keeping the lights on for industry in North America (until the "white picket fence" syndrome - i.e. marriage and family takes them out of the field).  In most industry, the time spent fixing the technology is what makes the productivity and infrastructure services that provides incredible lifestyle we all get to enjoy.

How many headaches does your computer, tablet, phone create through the course of a day? 

Actually we had the incredible lifestyle well before the technology of the last twenty years. There are still many the system doesn't work for.

YouTubers are whining because they have to work so hard to maintain followers, nothing's changed... 

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Globalization was like colonialism only in that it was absolutely inevitable.  It couldn't not happen, once we all knew about everyone else and had the technology to reach them.  In that respect, it's also just like climate change.

What was inevitable and well known and warned about was how powerful and sociopathic the interests pushing economic globalization would become.

All I heard in response was LOL and references to Stalin, Castro and David Szuzuki.