Donald Trump (in 3 paragraphs)

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

The US lost Vietnam in the same sense that Churchill/Dunkerque lost WWII.

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America won.

 In Vietnam today, as in China - people use the market system to co-operate.

====

Everyone in Vietnam, every Vietnamese today, owes a tremendous debt to a name on that black wall in Washington.

Everyone in Vietnam today knows that America won.

But... why?

 

I think if America stayed out of Vietnam we’d have similar economic and political conditions today in Vietnam, minus the 60000 American lives lost, billions spent, atrocities committed, PTSD, and Agent Orange.  Free market democracy provides better living conditions for the majority of people than communism.  You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.  Winning hearts and minds has better outcomes than force and fear, except in extreme situations.  When the US left Vietnam, the North had greater economic and political influence in South Vietnam.  Now that entire region has reformed its way to free market democracy because it serves people better than communism on the whole. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think if America stayed out of Vietnam we’d have similar economic and political conditions today in Vietnam, minus the 60000 American lives lost, billions spent, atrocities committed, PTSD, and Agent Orange. 

 

Oh sure...and Canada should have stayed out of WWI, because Germany was already a free market democracy.

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Oh sure...and Canada should have stayed out of WWI, because Germany was already a free market democracy.

Don’t worry, Canada has made many dumb-ass moves, like the US.  Nevertheless, I’m glad we and Great Britain have retained independence from Germany.  

[August1991]

On 11/17/2018 at 10:13 AM, Zeitgeist said:

I think if America stayed out of Vietnam we’d have similar economic and political conditions today in Vietnam, minus the 60000 American lives lost... 

Zeitgeist, given your thinking, I fear for our future as a civilized world.

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The Berlin Wall did not fall because of gravity.

It fell because of, among others - parmi d'autres - those guys in Vietnam.

Edited November 20, 2018 by August1991

[Zeitgeist]

13 hours ago, August1991 said:

Zeitgeist, given your thinking, I fear for our future as a civilized world.

=====

The Berlin Wall did not fall because of gravity.

It fell because of, among others - parmi d'autres - those guys in Vietnam.

Can you describe any successful campaigns in Vietnam?  It consisted mostly of very young men who had been shipped overseas against their will wandering through endless jungle, getting killed by ambushes, and occasionally losing their shit and burning down villages.  It was always hard to identify the enemy. In the end the Americans cut their losses and retreated.  I don’t think it was an effective show of force.  Free market capitalism did eventually win the day because people got better stuff. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Can you describe any successful campaigns in Vietnam?  It consisted mostly of very young men who had been shipped overseas against their will wandering through endless jungle, getting killed by ambushes, and occasionally losing their shit and burning down villages.  It was always hard to identify the enemy. In the end the Americans cut their losses and retreated.  I don’t think it was an effective show of force.  Free market capitalism did eventually win the day because people got better stuff. 

 

Most of the early operations were very successful. But too limited in scope to produce a decisive victory against the NVA sitting in Cambodia and Laos during their off hours.

Later: Lam Son 719 comes to mind...but it was too effective for the hippies back home who called it an invasion of Laos...which had already been invaded and co-opted by the NVA. 

[August1991]

On 11/20/2018 at 12:39 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Can you describe any successful campaigns in Vietnam?  It consisted mostly of very young men who had been shipped overseas against their will wandering through endless jungle, getting killed by ambushes, and occasionally losing their shit and burning down villages.  It was always hard to identify the enemy. In the end the Americans cut their losses and retreated.  I don’t think it was an effective show of force.  Free market capitalism did eventually win the day because people got better stuff. 

Can you describe any successful campaign in Dunkerque?

Dieppe?

=====

Make no mistake, America won.

Because of those young men, those names on a wall in Washington, the Soviet Union no longer exists.

And China and Vietnam now use prices to trade.

 

 

[August1991]

On 11/20/2018 at 12:39 PM, Zeitgeist said:

....Free market capitalism did eventually win the day because people got better stuff. 

Zeitgeist, you make it sound so easy. Flippant.

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I recommend that you travel abroad, visit a few cemeteries - Russia has mostly monuments. Have some empathy. Read a few books. Think.

Edited November 22, 2018 by August1991

[DogOnPorch]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

Zeitgeist, you make it sound so easy. Flippant.

=====

I recommend that you travel abroad, visit a few cemeteries - Russia has mostly monuments. Have some empathy. Read a few books. Think.

 

I think we all betrayed South Viet-Nam...leaving it for the wolves with 'Vietnamization'. Very few units in the ARVN were terribly effective...save the Rangers and other elite troops. Most were local militia type formations under dubious command.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnamese_Regional_Force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Rangers

Had we stuck with the ARVN, South Viet-Nam would have had all the same chances South Korea had/has...an economic powerhouse...an Asian Tiger.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Asian_Tigers

But now, they're a de facto slave state for Nike and such. Running shoes & rice husks...not container ships and cars. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam#/media/File:Viet_Nam_Export_Treemap.png

Edited November 22, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

On 11/19/2018 at 8:10 PM, August1991 said:

Zeitgeist, given your thinking, I fear for our future as a civilized world.

=====

The Berlin Wall did not fall because of gravity.

It fell because of, among others - parmi d'autres - those guys in Vietnam.

Oh bullshit, the Soviet Union fell largely because Afghanistan handed their sorry assess to them on a plate. Just like the Vietnamese did to the Yanks.

It's just talking a little longer for America to collapse is all but it's clearly happening.

[Queenmandy85]

The US failure in Viet Nam is a result of backing the wrong side. It is consistant with their practice of picking losers beginning in the 1950's. They should have backed Lamumba in the Congo, Castro in Cuba, and Ho in Viet Nam. It is still too early to tell if President Trump will be able to reverse this long-standing trend. Nixon did and improved relations with both China and the Soviets.

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

Had we stuck with the ARVN, South Viet-Nam would have had all the same chances South Korea had/has...an economic powerhouse...an Asian Tiger.

What do you mean "we" Kemo Sabe. Aside from some Canadian volunteers who joined the US forces, Canada stayed out of it. It was the only smart thing Mike Pearson ever did.

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

Zeitgeist, you make it sound so easy. Flippant.

=====

I recommend that you travel abroad, visit a few cemeteries - Russia has mostly monuments. Have some empathy. Read a few books. Think.

Nice try. I worked in Russia and studied the language and culture.  With regard to Vietnam, there are many histories on the subject, but the consensus is that it was another misrepresentation of democracy, like support of the Contras and the propping up of South American dictators.  You can call them mere setbacks in the Cold War that was later won, but I think they were irresponsible and unnecessary operations, except as a form of containment. Containment doesn’t require invasion. Look, the US’s support of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Soviets sowed the seeds of the Taliban.  The US invasion of Iraq and overturning of election results sowed the seeds of ISIS.  The US invasion of Vietnam spurred further arms races and geopolitical manipulation.  Americans personally suffered greatly for this unnecessary adventure.  

[Queenmandy85]

The cold war ended because of actions taken by the Russians. They finally had enough of the communists and threw them out. That the cold war is back is mainly due to the Russians learning to be careful what you wish for. They have opted for the strong, dynamic leader. Be careful what you wish for.

At the time of the fall of the Soviet Union, I attended a talk by Gwynn Dyer. He related a conversation he had with a Russian where the man said, "Don't worry, we'll screw it all up again."

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

What do you mean "we" Kemo Sabe. Aside from some Canadian volunteers who joined the US forces, Canada stayed out of it. It was the only smart thing Mike Pearson ever did.

 

Some? Try 30,000 volunteers and nearly 200 dead. Not to mention Agent Orange...Kemo Sabe.

[DogOnPorch]

22 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The cold war ended because of actions taken by the Russians. They finally had enough of the communists and threw them out. That the cold war is back is mainly due to the Russians learning to be careful what you wish for. They have opted for the strong, dynamic leader. Be careful what you wish for.

At the time of the fall of the Soviet Union, I attended a talk by Gwynn Dyer. He related a conversation he had with a Russian where the man said, "Don't worry, we'll screw it all up again."

 

Star Warz killed the Soviet Union. Couldn't keep-up.

[Queenmandy85]

26 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Some? Try 30,000 volunteers and nearly 200 dead. Not to mention Agent Orange...Kemo Sabe.

Urban folklore has it that the original Red Maple Leaf flag raised on Parliament Hill was stolen a week later and turned up being carried by a Canadian volunteer in Viet Nam. It would be nice if it's true.

A friend of mine from Trail, BC, was attending school in Spokane when he got his draft notice. He avoided the draft by joining the U.S. Marines. He knew he had a better chance of survival with them.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Urban folklore has it that the original Red Maple Leaf flag raised on Parliament Hill was stolen a week later and turned up being carried by a Canadian volunteer in Viet Nam. It would be nice if it's true.

A friend of mine from Trail, BC, was attending school in Spokane when he got his draft notice. He avoided the draft by joining the U.S. Marines. He knew he had a better chance of survival with them.

 

I don't think the USMC had that awful officer rotation program...but I'm not 100% sure.

[Shady]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The US failure in Viet Nam is a result of backing the wrong side. It is consistant with their practice of picking losers beginning in the 1950's. They should have backed Lamumba in the Congo, Castro in Cuba, and Ho in Viet Nam. It is still too early to tell if President Trump will be able to reverse this long-standing trend. Nixon did and improved relations with both China and the Soviets.

Not true at all.   It was the result of fighting a war with so many self-imposed constraints that victory was an impossibility.

[Shady]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The cold war ended because of actions taken by the Russians. They finally had enough of the communists and threw them out. That the cold war is back is mainly due to the Russians learning to be careful what you wish for. They have opted for the strong, dynamic leader. Be careful what you wish for.

At the time of the fall of the Soviet Union, I attended a talk by Gwynn Dyer. He related a conversation he had with a Russian where the man said, "Don't worry, we'll screw it all up again."

Russia was forced into taking actions from pressure put on them mostly from America, but Europe, the Pope at the time, etc.

[taxme]

On 10/29/2018 at 7:17 PM, bcsapper said:

Trump is not like Winston Churchill or Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan or Pierre Trudeau.  None of them were mindless, moronic poltroons.

It is more like none of them mentioned above, sans Reagan, were nationalist or patriotic to their home countries nor cared about their home countries. They were/are all globalist swampster sucks. They were/are nothing more than a bunch of swampsters that have been making your life and the rest of the world lives miserable since you were born and who have been trying to destroy all things normal and decent, nationalist and patriotic. It would appear as though that leftist media ideology brainwashing and propaganda has got you by the you know what's. Ouch. 

I am glad to see that Trump is not like the rest of the politically correct bunch of buffoons like above, sans Reagan. Anyone can see that Trump is not beholding to the globalist bankster elite like just about all the politicians all over the world are. What you need to be doing now is to take a closer look at that swampster picture on the wall where Trump is seen stepping and pressing down on their swampster heads. Just saying. LOL. 

[taxme]

4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The US failure in Viet Nam is a result of backing the wrong side. It is consistant with their practice of picking losers beginning in the 1950's. They should have backed Lamumba in the Congo, Castro in Cuba, and Ho in Viet Nam. It is still too early to tell if President Trump will be able to reverse this long-standing trend. Nixon did and improved relations with both China and the Soviets.

No country, not even America, can ever win a war alone without the help and backing of another countries military. If the Americans got themselves involved in a war by themselves they would never win. They are not quite as great militarily like they think they are. Why the Americans want to continue the war and stay in Afghanistan is beyond me. Maybe it has more to do with the poppies being grown there and are there to protect that crop for some reason. Just saying. Anyway, the Russians tried to take over Afghanistan and they failed and left and Russia at the time was a communist country that showed no mercy to it's enemies. Surrender or be destroyed. 

Trump has done the same thing as Nixon did and has pretty much made peace with China and Russia. But why the leftist liberal media and politicians in America keep going after Russia all the time is strange. Russia is no threat to America but China is. Go figure. 

[DogOnPorch]

7 minutes ago, taxme said:

No country, not even America, can ever win a war alone without the help and backing of another countries military. If the Americans got themselves involved in a war by themselves they would never win. They are not quite as great militarily like they think they are. Why the Americans want to continue the war and stay in Afghanistan is beyond me. Maybe it has more to do with the poppies being grown there and are there to protect that crop for some reason. Just saying. Anyway, the Russians tried to take over Afghanistan and they failed and left and Russia at the time was a communist country that showed no mercy to it's enemies. Surrender or be destroyed. 

Trump has done the same thing as Nixon did and has pretty much made peace with China and Russia. But why the leftist liberal media and politicians in America keep going after Russia all the time is strange. Russia is no threat to America but China is. Go figure. 

 

Democrats in the USA were actually chomping on the bit for another war just like LBJ. I suppose a few mushroom clouds would stop everybody from looking for Hillary's emails.

[taxme]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Democrats in the USA were actually chomping on the bit for another war just like LBJ. I suppose a few mushroom clouds would stop everybody from looking for Hillary's emails.

Indeed. The democrats and their globalist bankster elite masters are the shit disturbers of the world. Rumor had it that if Hillary had become the President rather than Trump she would have tried to start a war with Russia the silly azz biotch. Just what the rest of the world needs? Another useless and stupid war where the only people that will end up injured or killed are we the people. Hillary would be in the oval office and no doubt making a bet with her bookie and betting on who she would like to pick to win the war. A war with Russia would be a bloody disaster for the world. At least Trump will make sure that there will be no war with Russia on his watch while he is President. Lucky we the people. 

[DogOnPorch]

9 minutes ago, taxme said:

Indeed. The democrats and their globalist bankster elite masters are the shit disturbers of the world. Rumor had it that if Hillary had become the President rather than Trump she would have tried to start a war with Russia the silly azz biotch. Just what the rest of the world needs? Another useless and stupid war where the only people that will end up injured or killed are we the people. Hillary would be in the oval office and no doubt making a bet with her bookie and betting on who she would like to pick to win the war. A war with Russia would be a bloody disaster for the world. At least Trump will make sure that there will be no war with Russia on his watch while he is President. Lucky we the people. 

 

There's a lot of backward azz schlitt in Russia. ICBMs are not one of them.