Hates politicians Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Suggest something better than. Suggest improvements. There's nothing more pathetic than a citizen who bawls about politicians and has nothing of value to suggest. I tend to imagine them with a rattler and baby bonnet, and tears streaming down their face. 2. Your independently wealthy minimum wage politicians will cut pensions, and buy advertising telling people that they're making things great again. Use your brain when you make suggestions, and when it's lacking just post that you don't understand, and listen to others... Well if your so fxxxing smart whats your plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Wilber said: Like what? Why is it too much for you to think things through? You don't get a military on demand just when you want it. If that's what you want, get your own fucking military and pay for it yourself. Hey you finally get it. Pay for it yourself. Quote I guess committing suicide is your idea of defence because that would be your only option Isn't that the whole idea behind mutual assured destruction? Quote The military are emergency response people, or don't you consider a war an emergency. No they're killers and destroyers - they are the emergency. Quote Why should they defend someone the likes of you who would just cut them off if they are hurt on the job. Did you not hear me differentiate between the homeland defence I'm perfectly willing to pay for with my taxes and the geopolitical vandalism that constitutes going off to war paid for by your war bond? This is why I want no part of the military you and army guy are misrepresenting here. The reasons for supporting it are always steeped in mealy-mouthed self-interested bullshit. Quote Looking after you would be my first veto if I was in the military. Or do they only get to veto things you don't like and would have to get your permission. No, they should follow their orders and defend me or face a court martial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: ..well there is always Mc Donald's they take most people....... I don't care what you do so long as it isn't killing people I have no grievance with on my dime. Use Wilber's if he's so eager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, eyeball said: Hey you finally get it. Pay for it yourself. Isn't that the whole idea behind mutual assured destruction? No they're killers and destroyers - they are the emergency. Did you not hear me differentiate between the homeland defence I'm perfectly willing to pay for with my taxes and the geopolitical vandalism that constitutes going off to war paid for by your war bond? This is why I want no part of the military you and army guy are misrepresenting here. The reasons for supporting it are always steeped in mealy-mouthed self-interested bullshit. No, they should follow their orders and defend me or face a court martial. Gladly pay for it but I’m not paying to maintain a military that you can rent whenever it suits you. If that’s what you want, get your own because the military I pay for isn’t for rent to individuals, nor would I expect anyone to join it. Hire your own mercenaries. The problem with mutual assured destruction is that it is your only option if you have no conventional capability. Say some tinpot country with a moderate size military with limited nuclear capability wanted to take Vancouver Island. Without any conventional weapons, the whole country would have to commit suicide to defend you. I doubt they would think you are worth it. Edited October 4, 2018 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) On 10/3/2018 at 11:03 PM, Hates politicians said: Well if your so fxxxing smart whats your plan? I have some high-level ideas that I would suggest go into directives to government and crown corporations: Re-design the parliamentary legislative process to be faster, and engage with people through online public, nonymous accounts. We need less Question Period as it's irrelevant. Political Parties should be repurposed. Instead of providing answers and plans, they should reflect more "world views" of the people who vote for them. They are more like boards of directors for people who do the actual work, and the actual solutions should from collaboration between the parties, experts and the public. We should encourage more in-committee solutions to problems, and solutions from ministries and crown corporations and take problem solving away from parties. This means all should connect with the people who pay for and use services. Simplify everything so more people can understand the affairs of government. Push services off to contracted 3rd parties to deliver, and insist on constant improvement, and lowering of costs. Get government out of managing... anything. Recognize that government is about practical matters as well as matters of the heart. Make Canadian values into what we do and not what we talk about, which means being practical and pragmatic, and delivering: Generally, costs should go lower over time and services improve. Politics and talking about things needs to lead to action and not just more talking. --------- This should be manifested across the board, but especially in bureaucracies like Indian Affairs, Veteran affairs and so on. There are large bureaucracies that are entirely disconnected from people who pay for the services and people who use them. The way to fix it is to build a new service alongside the old one, and as the new service grows the old one will die out. Edited October 5, 2018 by Michael Hardner 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Wilber said: Gladly pay for it but I’m not paying to maintain a military that you can rent whenever it suits you. If that’s what you want, get your own because the military I pay for isn’t for rent to individuals, nor would I expect anyone to join it. Hire your own mercenaries. So we're stuck in the very same place, except I am paying for the military you presumably want, one that can be sent abroad whenever it suits the powers that be. Quote The problem with mutual assured destruction is that it is your only option if you have no conventional capability. Say some tinpot country with a moderate size military with limited nuclear capability wanted to take Vancouver Island. Without any conventional weapons, the whole country would have to commit suicide to defend you. I doubt they would think you are worth it You've got to do better than that. Forget your ridiculous what if base your argument on what is. There is only one country on the planet that would or could conceivably do such a thing and I doubt they would. Notwithstanding the millions of Canadians who would probably cheer being invaded by the US there would be no need to commit national suicide over it, I doubt the US would want to risk having a nuke detonated somewhere in retaliation for invading Canada. So getting back to reality and raising funds to send our military abroad, no one has offered any reason why war bonds cannot be used towards this end including the consequences of doing so - with measures in place to ensure people who did not wish to have their money put to such use are not left holding the bag. Further to that there should also be efforts in place to ensure people who do not buy into these adventures are not attacked or otherwise vilified. It's interesting that war bonds were once sold by appealing to patriotism and conscience and now these appeals are used to criticize other funding options. The only other option, a referendum preceding sending and troops abroad, is likewise ridiculed. There's really no way of getting around the fact that people of conscience have no way of avoiding being dragged into a matter that leaves them with a profound sense of unease over their responsibility for the all to often unethical and amoral killing of other human beings they have no grievance with. The insult to this injury is when the grievances fabricated by supporters of military action is embedded in appeals to conscience and patriotism and the implication you don't have any if you disagree. Edited October 4, 2018 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Your off your meds again Eye balls, come back to reality.....put that massive party favor down ….. here in Canada "the people do not get much of a say in how each one of their tax dollars is spent....nor do you get any say on who this country decides is a threat, or military action needs to be taken.... This post was about how our vets are treated by our government and how very little that treatment bothers Canadian voters, it's like they are OK with that.....well at least most of them...,the topic was not about your delusional idea on how our defense dept should work....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) First of all, I would like to thank Michael for such a thoughtful post a few above related to how politcos, our government and its agencies are so disconnected from the citizens. It is a huge problem and very much part of this specific problem. We have to stop and ask ourselves why we have armed forces in the first place. One thing - defense of the nation - is fairly obvious. Now, the ONLY country to openly violate our sovereign (colonial) borders is the one directly South of us, and what they seldom recognize is that they were sent packing - by the Brits. Since then, we can consider the Yanks our closest and most trusted ally. Even so: when you realize that being a country with any credible status within the world community means having various treaties and organizations that can and will use military force to defend what the greater community at large decides is in the best interest of the world. When Eyeball (and a lot of other Canadians) see Canadians going "where they don't belong" or some such, it is ALWAYS with the endorsement and request of our allies and the UN. No country as small as Canada (in population) could ever hope to defend itself from a superpower military onslaught - we MUST be able to rely on the rest of the world and in particular our treaty allies to participate in our defense. With that comes our obligation in return to defend others. The other thing our armed forces (both regs and reserves) do is "aid to civil power" (yeah, I am so old I still use that term). Floods, fires and civil insurrection (from Riel Rebellion to Quebec crisis) are times that civil governments are in distress and call upon our military to put themselves in harms way for the nation. I am more than a bit biased, having grown up within the military world, having a son-in-law who is a regimental DCO (will be CO soon) who is also a decorated Afgan vet and having a HS classmate/friend who rose to similar rank within the procurement side and being very well acquainted with one MND . I was a reserve in my youth (artillery), and we have many family members who serve in that capacity today. While we don't need to worry about the 49th these days, what few realize is that we have some very unsettled Northern boundary issues - with one particular country that is even more resource dependent than we are - and who has no hesitation to claim or occupy territory with full political, diplomatic and military support. What we largely ignore is that we really need to establish and maintain our presence in many of those remote areas, and it is the job we assign to our military to do so. Reality is: the Liberal and other left side of our political spectrum has relentlessly attacked the military - who are by their very sworn service to stand in support of the country's government are not able to defend themselves. It began with the ultimate best example of all Liberals - Paul Hellyer (who today is a UFOlogist - how's that for an elevator that doesn't go to the top floor?). Canada it is often said was "borne" on Vimy Ridge as a "real country" on its own account. Our military really showed its stuff in WWII - putting Canada in a situation postwar in which the military had an extremely high profile and respectable reputation both at home and abroad. The Liberals felt this a threat to their desire to absolutely dominate Canada, so Hellyer did as he was told and tried his level best to destroy that reputation and the institutions in which it was vested. When Trudeau #1 came to power, Hellyer found a perfect home as Minister to carry out such treachery, and Trudeau found the avenue to use his power to turn the military from a military force into an element of his socially engineered "just society" (which pretty much meant that if they had their way, all Canada would have left is "just" society - run by the LPC). And that brings us right back to another Liberal government - led by none other than the son of he who first made such a profound effort to destroy our military - that once more wants to dictate their airheaded version of absolute control over the country. Takes us right back to Michael's post above. The only reason Liberals (and Red Torries) have ANY use for our military is to continue to use procurement as a tax-funded sot to Quebec - where military and civil spending is directed without any other reason except to pacify and subsidize (with no doubt a considerable amount of "bleed back" to partisan contribution$$). We NEED an effectively trained and equipped military to meet our needs for sovereign defense, disaster support of civil governments and our obligations to the rest of the world. And, we are demanding that they do so with virtually NO support from the government, its bureaucracies and even the people for those who serve and those who have given of themselves and their families in service. Edited October 5, 2018 by cannuck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 6 hours ago, cannuck said: When Eyeball (and a lot of other Canadians) see Canadians going "where they don't belong" or some such, it is ALWAYS with the endorsement and request of our allies and the UN. Our allies are amongst the biggest trouble makers on the planet and its always hilarious listening to right wing militarists who normally eschew the UN pointing to its endorsement for our allies adventures as if it from Mother Theresa herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Michael I like most of your suggestions in your post, But how do we bring these ideas into our current way of doing things, it seems that our current system is set up to prevent any drastic , but needed solutions. Canuck , I'm a big fan of your post, But there is always a but, I'm not sure if it is really the case that the government is out of touch, they know the truth behind the scenes better than anyone, they just will not act for some reason, that and the majority of our citizens just don't give a rats ass.... Though my eyes I see the citizens as the gate way to getting anything done, without their support nothing happens....Most Canadians know exactly what is happening to our vets...it is in the media every week...and while most are a little concerned, they are not concerned enough to demand changes, or take some sort of action...It is not on any of the major political parties priorities, it is not an election issue, shit is not even on the radar. To date more vets have died due to suicide than were killed in action, and these numbers continue to grow everyday.....how many could we have saved if they had access to proper care...And yet a convicted killer receives all the care he needs from VAC while serving his prison sentence...A very telling story when we treat our cop killers better than we treat our vets.... As much as I would like to lay all this down at the feet of the liberals, because I would not piss on one if they were on fire....I also hold the conservatives to blame as well..Cuts made to services and benefits of our SERVING Service members, plus massive cuts to services and benefits to our VETS all made to pad a surplus to make a point....A point that the liberals pissed away while knowing the full cost to those depts and our Soldiers and Vets. "they want more than we can give right now" Yes the liberals have reversed some of those changes....and yet today our vets are still fighting our government in court on numerous fronts, last year government lawyers told the media that the government of Canada is not responsible to provide a safe and harassment free work place ....this after several female soldiers were sexually harassed and were forced to take their case to court "WTF" and yet is it not law for the rest of the country......a year later, the same lawyers told the media that there is NO social contact to provide our vets with any medical or other benefits suffer while caring out their duties. these remarks were setting up for the new future , the new cost cutting measures ….Last month it was announced through DND channels that injured soldiers will not be given medical pensions and sent on their way, instead they will be given a new trade or job within DND, If the soldier refuses or does not like there chosen new job or trade, they have only one other option left to them quit , go home with return of pension contributions, But NO medical pension...NO workman's comp, sweet fu*** all ….Note that both DND and VAC have turned in Massive surplus back to the government every year for the last 5 years....these surpluses are not being put away for future equipment purchases...they are given back to the government to do what ever they want with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 On 10/4/2018 at 4:46 AM, Michael Hardner said: We should encourage more in-committee solutions to problems, and solutions from ministries and crown corporations and take problem solving away from parties. I like the idea of diminishing the power and importance of political parties. If I had anything to say about it I'd draft members of the public at random, like juries, and have them vote on the merits of the legislation your experts and committees come up with. As for sending troops abroad however, there's still no reason to not use war bonds or general referendums and super-majorities before committing ourselves to killing people on morally and ethically questionable...very questionable....missions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) On 10/4/2018 at 8:05 PM, Army Guy said: Your off your meds again Eye balls, come back to reality.....put that massive party favor down ….. here in Canada "the people do not get much of a say in how each one of their tax dollars is spent....nor do you get any say on who this country decides is a threat, or military action needs to be taken.... This post was about how our vets are treated by our government and how very little that treatment bothers Canadian voters, it's like they are OK with that.....well at least most of them...,the topic was not about your delusional idea on how our defense dept should work....... You cannot talk about the issue with the government treating the Vets like garbage without mentioning HOW they got to be Vets. And WHY they would need help after the fact. The government's foreign policy is the largest factor in creating wounded vets. As a Military person yourself, I thought you'd understand that. Edited October 6, 2018 by GostHacked 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 foreign policy as well as spending and direction given to the armed forces in peacetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 1 hour ago, GostHacked said: You cannot talk about the issue with the government treating the Vets like garbage without mentioning HOW they got to be Vets. And WHY they would need help after the fact. The government's foreign policy is the largest factor in creating wounded vets. As a Military person yourself, I thought you'd understand that. I'm fully aware of How and Why they got to be vets, what I disagree with is all of eyeballs notions on this topic, He does not give a rats ass about our nations soldiers, or it's military ....All he is concerned with is that some of his tax dollars are spent on the military, which drives him over the wall ....end of story....He brings nothing to the table.....except groans and whines.. look at his ideas and decide for yourself.....NUKs that is the answer according to him, we have already been down this road Nukes did not give us a seat at the grown ups table, it did very little in regards to strengthen our nation, it did squat for our military status, our military downed size while having them, then down sized once again when we got rid of them....North Korea and Iran have Nukes, both nations are under huge strains from sanctions from the rest of the world...having Nukes gives you squat.... Having a referendum, or super majority is another wing nut idea, first off how many Canadians even voted last election or the one before that....what percentage of Canadians even follow what is going on around the world, Afghanistan conflict had the majority of Canadians approval, my first tour we left a 3 am, to avoid crowds....there were hundreds lining the streets of Trenton to see us off.... At 3 am, so the support was there, and yet, the media covered every inch of Afghanistan, every night something was on the air....Canadians just changed the channel they had lost interest they did not care one way or another. no interest to bring our soldiers home, they had no idea what Afghanistan was all about....to most it was about OIL...WTF ther was no oil at all..... instead some citizens attacked us with false accusations made up by some Taliban prisoners, and some Ottawa university prof made it his mission to drag our military through the dirt....even after they were proven false nobody gave a shit....it was one thing after another....Today Afghanistan is swept under the carpet, and nobody gives a F*** With support no longer there funding dried up....with little funding there was no way to win hearts and minds...there was no new wpns or equipment, it took dozens of soldiers to die in the line of duty before some new equipment began to arrive....all of this was covered by the media extensively , soldiers in Afghanistan would watch the news and pray somebody , any body has got to say something after hearing the news of how badly we were equipped....NOPE 10 years go by without a word......, most Canadian soldiers have been over to Afghanistan on average 3 to 8 times.... that's 6 to 7 months on tour, 6 to 7 months no training or rest period back home, then 6 to 7 months training to go back to start the cycle again... Sorry for the Rant but you can see I don't have much faith in our fellow citizens to a) give a shit, b) know something about the topic. C) to take action , like vote, send a letter, write in a forum, do something.....So what is left....our current system and all of its flaws, because overall it just does not interest the average joe so we are stuck in this circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I'm fully aware of How and Why they got to be vets, what I disagree with is all of eyeballs notions on this topic, He does not give a rats ass about our nations soldiers, or it's military ....All he is concerned with is that some of his tax dollars are spent on the military, which drives him over the wall ....end of story....He brings nothing to the table.....except groans and whines.. Why should we not be concerned about spending on the military? We should be concerned about how the government spends our money everywhere. We seem to have no problem with finding money to send people to war, but never enough money to help those same people wounded in those wars. The way I see what eyeball is saying is that we do not NEED to spend the money on sending troops to places like Afghanistan. Spending money on defence is very different from spending the money on offence. So not needing to send people to war, means more money for real defence, and more money to take care of wounded soldiers. 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: look at his ideas and decide for yourself.....NUKs that is the answer according to him, we have already been down this road Nukes did not give us a seat at the grown ups table, it did very little in regards to strengthen our nation, it did squat for our military status, our military downed size while having them, then down sized once again when we got rid of them....North Korea and Iran have Nukes, both nations are under huge strains from sanctions from the rest of the world...having Nukes gives you squat.... You really think someone aside from national leaders really advocate for nuking the area? Hell I've said nuke all of the M.E myself and just be done with all this bullshit. But I highly doubt anyone would take me seriously on that matter. No one in their right mind would genuinely advocate for that aside from the corrupt leaders in government and war hawks in the military to create a conflict to justify their existence. 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Having a referendum, or super majority is another wing nut idea, first off how many Canadians even voted last election or the one before that....what percentage of Canadians even follow what is going on around the world, Afghanistan conflict had the majority of Canadians approval, my first tour we left a 3 am, to avoid crowds....there were hundreds lining the streets of Trenton to see us off.... At 3 am, so the support was there, and yet, the media covered every inch of Afghanistan, every night something was on the air....Canadians just changed the channel they had lost interest they did not care one way or another. no interest to bring our soldiers home, they had no idea what Afghanistan was all about....to most it was about OIL...WTF ther was no oil at all..... instead some citizens attacked us with false accusations made up by some Taliban prisoners, and some Ottawa university prof made it his mission to drag our military through the dirt....even after they were proven false nobody gave a shit....it was one thing after another....Today Afghanistan is swept under the carpet, and nobody gives a F*** The ass pounding Afghanistan took was a direct result of the US's foreign policy which resulted in a blowback terror attack in NYC on 9/11 2001. It was EASY to rally the citizens behind the troops to go get the bad guys that attacked the USA. Afghanistan is our government's failure to do the job right the first time. It was a complex time which required more than just military might. There was no clear plan of action for Afghanistan, but that failure did not stop the same thing happening to 8 more nations over the last 20 years. This has gone on longer that WWI and WWII combined. That's a huge failure in my mind. So why send troops there anymore if it is a failure? Does that mean we don't give a shit about the troops? I believe eyball is like me in the sense, we'd rather not send you there in the first place. KNOWING some of you will never come back, and many will never be the same again. 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: With support no longer there funding dried up....with little funding there was no way to win hearts and minds...there was no new wpns or equipment, it took dozens of soldiers to die in the line of duty before some new equipment began to arrive....all of this was covered by the media extensively , soldiers in Afghanistan would watch the news and pray somebody , any body has got to say something after hearing the news of how badly we were equipped....NOPE 10 years go by without a word......, most Canadian soldiers have been over to Afghanistan on average 3 to 8 times.... that's 6 to 7 months on tour, 6 to 7 months no training or rest period back home, then 6 to 7 months training to go back to start the cycle again... IF the funding dried up, why would you be bitching at the citizens when the government is the one putting you in harms way and then not taking responsibility for your long term care because of it? We've spent billions on a new air force fighter which has YET to be delivered and has failed most of the requirements and deadlines but cannot even find the money to purchase enough rucksacks to properly equip soldiers. 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Sorry for the Rant but you can see I don't have much faith in our fellow citizens to a) give a shit, b) know something about the topic. C) to take action , like vote, send a letter, write in a forum, do something.....So what is left....our current system and all of its flaws, because overall it just does not interest the average joe so we are stuck in this circle. We are not apathetic, the government does not give a fuck about you in the end, and that's the problem. We pay taxes so the government can take care of those issues. There are examples of corruption in government and many examples of very wasteful spending on things that don't matter, or was never expected to work/perform as expected. Imagine what 1 billion could do for the military , right now. But that's how much waste that was encountered implementing the Phoenix pay system. That's just the government, let alone the countless lives affected by getting underpaid, not paid at all, over paid and then overcharged when returning the overpay.... the government does not care about you. You are a tool of the government and they toss you away when you are no longer useful. If we are to donate our time and money to the vets when the taxes should be covering this, something is very very wrong. Where is our money going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altai Posted October 6, 2018 Report Share Posted October 6, 2018 We can treat your vets, send them to fight against us together Kurdish freedom fighters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 4:08 PM, GostHacked said: Why should we not be concerned about spending on the military? We should be concerned about how the government spends our money everywhere. We seem to have no problem with finding money to send people to war, but never enough money to help those same people wounded in those wars. The way I see what eyeball is saying is that we do not NEED to spend the money on sending troops to places like Afghanistan. Spending money on defence is very different from spending the money on offence. So not needing to send people to war, means more money for real defence, and more money to take care of wounded soldiers. Your missing the point, the Majority of Canadians are concerned that we are spending TO MUCH on our military, they want to spend less....not more, LESS infact most Canadians get a twitch in their eye if you even talk about it....And our government is nothing more than a puppet to this rhetoric. Canadians are under the opinion that our military is well off it is well equipped, and it's members are healthy and fit to accomplish any mission...It is all bullshit...the media prints dozens of articles every month, that say other wise....Canadians refuse to believe that...And your right we should all be very concerned on how our government spends out tax dollars, concerned about under spending and over spending..... and while spending on the military is not as sexy it is the first Dept that will cut its budget slashed to fund vote buying projects .. That us not what Eyeball is saying at all, he wants nothing to do with the military period.....Why is it that we to Afghanistan in the first place ? Was it because of our defensive packs we have agreed to take part in.....So in the course of living up to our defensive agreements we removed dozens of terrorist groups operating within Afghanistan , Along with removing the ruling party "the Taliban " that was the job....leaving a massive hole where they government use to be....Next Question what were we suppose to do just leave, give them a big finger and say sort it out....only to be back in a year doing the same thing over and over again.... Besides what does it matter to you or eyeball, most Canadians turned their backs on the Afghanistan problem , and our military....This was not Canada's mission....this was Canada's military mission....the government and people wanted nothing to do with it....all those diplomatic missions where we built dams , highways that was all military personal , planning , caring it out, oversight of those projects....the last diplomat that left the compound got blown up....after that most jobs went to the military, winning hearts and minds was our job, the government gave us bags of money and said go forth and spend it some place....Shit the military had as many mentoring attachees to the Afghan government as the diplomatic corp... The whole Afghanistan issue was a failure of our military....because nobody gave a sweet F$$$$, Other than Afghanistan, So what other foreign Combat missions have we been on....are you implying that Cyprus, or Korea was not worth the time and effort, perhaps WWII , WWI, the Boar war maybe, So we don't get involved in many foreign conflicts unless we are peacekeeping, or peace making....When have we spent great gobs of money on Offensive conflicts ?... While we are at it when was the last time we spent great gobs of money on defense...Sounds a lot like Liberal promises , we will get to that after the next election.....which is code for F*** you... You really think someone aside from national leaders really advocate for nuking the area? Hell I've said nuke all of the M.E myself and just be done with all this bullshit. But I highly doubt anyone would take me seriously on that matter. No one in their right mind would genuinely advocate for that aside from the corrupt leaders in government and war hawks in the military to create a conflict to justify their existence Your missing his intentions, by having Nuks no one will mess with you or so he claims....and yet North Korea and Iran has nuks or is in the process of getting them, and how are they making out.....having Nuks does not give you any advantage on or off the battle field., or political field... Quote The ass pounding Afghanistan took was a direct result of the US's foreign policy which resulted in a blowback terror attack in NYC on 9/11 2001. It was EASY to rally the citizens behind the troops to go get the bad guys that attacked the USA. Afghanistan is our government's failure to do the job right the first time. It was a complex time which required more than just military might. There was no clear plan of action for Afghanistan, but that failure did not stop the same thing happening to 8 more nations over the last 20 years. This has gone on longer that WWI and WWII combined. That's a huge failure in my mind. So why send troops there anymore if it is a failure? Does that mean we don't give a shit about the troops? I believe eyball is like me in the sense, we'd rather not send you there in the first place. KNOWING some of you will never come back, and many will never be the same again. Our involvement in Afghanistan was a Canadian failure, failure on our government, failure on our military, and failure of our citizens..... Quote So why send troops there anymore if it is a failure? So that is it then, we tell Afghanistan's people 35 million of them your not worth our time, our effort, our treasure....in fact we are telling the world we don't give a rats ass....that is until that next commercial of those African kids starving, or media coverage of a young Syrian kid washed up on the shore....Or is it OK to preach about human rights but when it is time to put up some action ….we back down and say sorry....rather two faced is it not....What most Canadians forget is the entire world is not like Canada, there is no malls, or luxury items and services that we spend trillions of dollars on...NO a lot of the world is not like that at all, it's filled with bad men and women who prey on the weak, they take everything the have , and leave them to die...and they only thing these bad guys understand is violence....Sometimes you have to stand tall and carry a bigger stick, and most times your going to get bloody... Quote IF the funding dried up, why would you be bitching at the citizens when the government is the one putting you in harms way and then not taking responsibility for your long term care because of it? We've spent billions on a new air force fighter which has YET to be delivered and has failed most of the requirements and deadlines but cannot even find the money to purchase enough rucksacks to properly equip soldiers. It all comes down to this, the government will do anything to get reelected, they will listen to the people ….ask the Ottawa university Prof who accused the Canadian military of torture and mishandling of POWS....who capture the minds of the whole country... So why, Because we don't have a voice ...serving member are not allow to go to the media, or talk about issues on social media , forums nothing....for them it is against the service code of conduct, and liable with fines, military jail time,(trust me you don't want to do time in a military prison)...or dismal for duty.... They is an unwritten contract that Canadian citizen would have the backs of it's service people , while they were of risking their lives, Canadian citizens would be holding our government accountable for its actions....and yet we have seen none of that..... The status of DND has been in the media hundreds of times, most Canadians know about it's state....and yet with that knowledge things are only getting worse...no rucksacks this week, next week it will be something else....and what happens, nothing nobody gives a flying F*** Quote We are not apathetic, the government does not give a fuck about you in the end, and that's the problem. We pay taxes so the government can take care of those issues. There are examples of corruption in government and many examples of very wasteful spending on things that don't matter, or was never expected to work/perform as expected. maybe your not Apathic, but the majority of Canadians don't give a rats f***.or someone would be saying something....they all think everything is honky dory....we have a great military well trained and well equipped....Once the people stand up and say enough....shit will start to happen...until then soldiers will continue to buy their own kit and equipment just for the chance to serve this great nation.....that's what they do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 37 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Your missing the point, the Majority of Canadians are concerned that we are spending TO MUCH on our military, they want to spend less....not more, LESS infact most Canadians get a twitch in their eye if you even talk about it....And our government is nothing more than a puppet to this rhetoric. Canadians are under the opinion that our military is well off it is well equipped, and it's members are healthy and fit to accomplish any mission...It is all bullshit... You're avoiding the point which is that many Canadians do not believe our missions stand up to a proper moral or ethical analysis of their need, execution and especially consequences. Trust me, I'd double your pay just to keep you in your barracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, eyeball said: You're avoiding the point which is that many Canadians do not believe our missions stand up to a proper moral or ethical analysis of their need, execution and especially consequences. Trust me, I'd double your pay just to keep you in your barracks. What missions.....are you referring to....you make it sound like we been to dozens of combat missions.....are you including UN or NATO sanctioned missions....what missions are you talking about, that were not able to stand up to your personal code of morality or ethics.... It's funny that in any conflict there is very little morals or values not even a dash of ethics to be found, maybe we start off that way, but in a very short time all that is left is hate, destruction, disdain for our entire enemies existence...and yet some how there are good wars or conflicts and bad ones according to you........kind of an oxy moron is it not... As long is man is man there will always be wars , forever until the end of time....., at least we could do is ensure the generation we send into combat is trained and armed with the latest equipment , so they can some of them can come home...unless you like those massive cenotaphs that are in each town, or city, with names of those that did not come home, buried in some far off land, and in some cases all the sons from one family gone forever , why because we were not ready, we sent an entire generation to be mowed down like geese in the fall ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxme Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 On 9/27/2018 at 4:39 PM, Army Guy said: It really surprises me that in todays world , in our country that has claimed we are superior to so many nations around the world in regards to human rights , that we as Canadian citizens and our government see our service members as a liability and actually don't give a rats ass about our vets...So much that our justice system has publicly back our government efforts to discard any vets claims....in the last 2 years this government has gone to court and they have decided that that a)The federal government is not responsible to provide a safe and harassment free work place...AND now the government does not have to look after vets that become injured while on duty to this nation, that they have NO social contract to look after anybody for any injury in a federal work place....The government is now making head way to cancel ALL medical released soldiers benefits…. replacing them with a duty to employ, regardless of injury...if you can't be employed, here is the return of contributions to your pension, have a nice life....this will be policy in the near future, these are the new cost saving measures that our government and CDS have agreed to...... And yet the government has not changed any of its laws regarding soldiers disregarding orders that may result in death, or what they call unlimited liability...that states a soldier must obey every command even if it results in their death.....now disregarding or refusing this order once was punishable by death with out trail, after before WII it was changed to needs a trail, but still could result in death....now it is just punishable by imprisonment, and dishonorable discharge, try getting employment after that....And we thought that since we had to basically put our lives in our nations hands, in return we would get looked after if wounded, or killed....Now our nation says F**** you, we don't owe you shit...we make the rules here, so now with no work mans comp, no social contract to be looked after....we get shown the door , to live with our injuries the rest of our lives , with no compensation..... I mean this very government has not over turned a decision to give a convicted killer of a 9 year old, the right to be sent to a healing lodge....nor has it over turned giving a convicted murder VAC benefits for PTSD that he got killing a police officer, and did not serve one F888ing day of service to his country....What kind of message are we sending our soldiers....and RCMP members, here is what I hear....F**** you, you piece of shit....you do not deserve the sweat off a monkeys balls....unless perhaps you kill a 9 year with a hammer, or a police officer then maybe we will look after you.....until then there is the door....What a great recruiting ad that would make....the liberals love criminals but spit on vets I wish there was some emoji of someone hanging a moon, because that is what I think this post needs.... https://nationalpost.com/opinion/david-j-bercuson-angry-veterans-today-a-unionized-canadian-military-tomorrow https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/veterans-federal-election-candidates-1.3230996 https://ipolitics.ca/2016/05/19/why-is-trudeau-kicking-veterans-to-the-curb/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/the-conservatives-treatment-of-veterans-is-hypocritical/article15564363/ http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2013/11/11/royal-legion-concerned-by-treatment-of-canadas-war-veterans/ I love this country , but hate where it is going.... . Personally, I believe that anyone who joins the military is stupid. What they are doing is not fighting for real freedom but for the freedom of the Zionist bankster globalist elites who start all wars in the first place to make themselves even richer and to use the military to get rid of their opponents. Henry Kissinger once said that soldiers are pretty much a bunch of zombies. They go and get themselves injured or killed and the people back home could care less. Illegal criminal refugees are treated better than our vets for Christ sake. We have had an invasion going on in Canada these last two years that even our own government cannot or does not seem to want to stop. Our borders are where Canadians need their military to protect and not some opium fields in Afghanistan. It's hard to love ones country anymore when we see everyday that their politicians appear to hate their own country and are trying their very best to destroy a once great nation. Canada will soon be no more the country that I grew up in anymore. Our dear leaders have sold this nation out too political correctness in order to please their elite globalist masters who pull their strings and get to dictate as to where this country will go. We the people have no say anymore. As a matter of fact, we the people never did really ever have a say on anything. Democracy never really existed in Canada. Dictatorship has though. But when the people really show no concern all that much about anything but themselves than what else can a guy like me expect but more of the same old bull shit. Canadians should vote for the communist party of Canada and get it over with. If they do not believe in more freedom, less government and less taxes than the communist party is for them. Aw well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 14 hours ago, Army Guy said: What missions.....are you referring to.... Oh ffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 25 minutes ago, taxme said: Personally, I believe that anyone who joins the military is stupid. What they are doing is not fighting for real freedom but for the freedom of the Zionist bankster globalist elite... Oh ffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, eyeball said: Oh ffs. Since this person is the board's lone "white power" or "white heritage" or whatever-they-call-it's representative, I believe we can take this to be White Pride's patriotic stance on Canadian veterans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: Your missing the point, the Majority of Canadians are concerned that we are spending TO MUCH on our military, they want to spend less....not more, LESS infact most Canadians get a twitch in their eye if you even talk about it....And our government is nothing more than a puppet to this rhetoric. Canadians are under the opinion that our military is well off it is well equipped, and it's members are healthy and fit to accomplish any mission...It is all bullshit...the media prints dozens of articles every month, that say other wise....Canadians refuse to believe that...And your right we should all be very concerned on how our government spends out tax dollars, concerned about under spending and over spending..... and while spending on the military is not as sexy it is the first Dept that will cut its budget slashed to fund vote buying projects .. We have the money to waste on a 4th Gen fighter that has yet to deliver and we cannot afford enough rucksacks. It's WASTEFUL spending people are pissed off about. We just made millions off of selling equipment to repressive nations like Saudi Arabia which is being used to cause problems elsewhere. But that money is more for the contractors that make out BIG time while screwing the taxpayer by charging to much, and is a direct contributing factor to soldiers not getting a simple rucksack. Because the government cannot afford it. 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: That us not what Eyeball is saying at all, he wants nothing to do with the military period.....Why is it that we to Afghanistan in the first place ? Was it because of our defensive packs we have agreed to take part in.....So in the course of living up to our defensive agreements we removed dozens of terrorist groups operating within Afghanistan , Along with removing the ruling party "the Taliban " that was the job....leaving a massive hole where they government use to be....Next Question what were we suppose to do just leave, give them a big finger and say sort it out....only to be back in a year doing the same thing over and over again.... We've been working Afghanistan for 15+ years. It's a failure on our military/foreign policy to actually pacify the area. Also Afghanistan did not attack us, they did not even attack the USA. Al-Queda did. Most of them were Saudi's funded by Saudi money. Where do you think we really should have gone? 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: Besides what does it matter to you or eyeball, most Canadians turned their backs on the Afghanistan problem , and our military....This was not Canada's mission....this was Canada's military mission....the government and people wanted nothing to do with it....all those diplomatic missions where we built dams , highways that was all military personal , planning , caring it out, oversight of those projects....the last diplomat that left the compound got blown up....after that most jobs went to the military, winning hearts and minds was our job, the government gave us bags of money and said go forth and spend it some place....Shit the military had as many mentoring attachees to the Afghan government as the diplomatic corp... The whole Afghanistan issue was a failure of our military....because nobody gave a sweet F$$$$, Afghanistan was a a failure right from the start. Guys like me and Eyeball would rather not have sent anyone to Afghanistan. Not sure home much clearer I can make that. Even you admit it was a failure. We did not turn our back on Afghanistan, we did not want you there in the first place. We wanted our troops to stay home and not get involved in a conflict that would take close to 2 decades and is still not solved. 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: Other than Afghanistan, So what other foreign Combat missions have we been on....are you implying that Cyprus, or Korea was not worth the time and effort, perhaps WWII , WWI, the Boar war maybe, So we don't get involved in many foreign conflicts unless we are peacekeeping, or peace making....When have we spent great gobs of money on Offensive conflicts ?... While we are at it when was the last time we spent great gobs of money on defense...Sounds a lot like Liberal promises , we will get to that after the next election.....which is code for F*** you... You really think someone aside from national leaders really advocate for nuking the area? Hell I've said nuke all of the M.E myself and just be done with all this bullshit. But I highly doubt anyone would take me seriously on that matter. No one in their right mind would genuinely advocate for that aside from the corrupt leaders in government and war hawks in the military to create a conflict to justify their existence Your missing his intentions, by having Nuks no one will mess with you or so he claims....and yet North Korea and Iran has nuks or is in the process of getting them, and how are they making out.....having Nuks does not give you any advantage on or off the battle field., or political field... We don't spend money on defense, we spend if on offense. A huge difference you are not allowing yourself to differentiate between. 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: Our involvement in Afghanistan was a Canadian failure, failure on our government, failure on our military, and failure of our citizens.. No it was a failure of our government and our foreign policy and our commitments to things like NATO. The citizens had NO say in sending you to Afghanistan. But yet you want to blame the citizens when the government does not even care enough about you to give you weapons you need or the much needed care after you are back home. Again NOT a failure of the citizens. You will garner less support from the citizens when you wrongly blame them over the government. Citizens have ZERO say in how military money is spent. 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: So that is it then, we tell Afghanistan's people 35 million of them your not worth our time, our effort, our treasure....in fact we are telling the world we don't give a rats ass....that is until that next commercial of those African kids starving, or media coverage of a young Syrian kid washed up on the shore....Or is it OK to preach about human rights but when it is time to put up some action ….we back down and say sorry....rather two faced is it not....What most Canadians forget is the entire world is not like Canada, there is no malls, or luxury items and services that we spend trillions of dollars on...NO a lot of the world is not like that at all, it's filled with bad men and women who prey on the weak, they take everything the have , and leave them to die...and they only thing these bad guys understand is violence....Sometimes you have to stand tall and carry a bigger stick, and most times your going to get bloody... NO Afghanistan was NOT worth our time. Because we are still there 15 years later and little has changed. And you still want to blame citizens for the government's failure and not having a clear path forward for that nation? But it worked out so well that several other nations got the same treatment, and with the same results. Again, you can blame the citizens for that too but you are going to get LESS support when doing that. 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: It all comes down to this, the government will do anything to get reelected, they will listen to the people ….ask the Ottawa university Prof who accused the Canadian military of torture and mishandling of POWS....who capture the minds of the whole country... So why, Because we don't have a voice ...serving member are not allow to go to the media, or talk about issues on social media , forums nothing....for them it is against the service code of conduct, and liable with fines, military jail time,(trust me you don't want to do time in a military prison)...or dismal for duty.... They is an unwritten contract that Canadian citizen would have the backs of it's service people , while they were of risking their lives, Canadian citizens would be holding our government accountable for its actions....and yet we have seen none of that..... That is only if the citizens believe in the mission and believe it is worth it. That was not the case with Afghanistan. We saw early on it was a waste of blood, money and resources. It was the attack on NYC back in 2001 that was the catalyst for much of this. Without that, this conversation would never have taken place. 18 hours ago, Army Guy said: The status of DND has been in the media hundreds of times, most Canadians know about it's state....and yet with that knowledge things are only getting worse...no rucksacks this week, next week it will be something else....and what happens, nothing nobody gives a flying F*** maybe your not Apathic, but the majority of Canadians don't give a rats f***.or someone would be saying something....they all think everything is honky dory....we have a great military well trained and well equipped....Once the people stand up and say enough....shit will start to happen...until then soldiers will continue to buy their own kit and equipment just for the chance to serve this great nation.....that's what they do... You need to look at our government and how wasteful the spending is for the military. Again we've pissed a billion dollars on a plane we have yet to use, but no money for rucksacks. We can throw a billion at a failed pay system for our civil servants who got screwed countless ways, is that also the fault of the citizens? How do we control the wasteful spending when the government is not even sure how it spends the money. Maybe the title needs to change to 'how Army Guy treats citizens with disdain while the government continues to screw him over.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Army Guy said: Once the people stand up and say enough....shit will start to happen... Hoping for a galvanizing event are you? Quote ...until then soldiers will continue to buy their own kit and equipment just for the chance to serve this great nation.....that's what they do... Our foreign policies have done the complete opposite of making us or our allies great. If apathy is the best we can hope for in terms of putting the brakes on our military ambitions abroad then so be it. I take cold comfort however because apathy truly is at the heart of the problem that gets under both our skins, In my case its the apathy Canadians exhibit towards the sorts of policies our governments enact and support that inevitably lead to the retaliatory pressure that triggers a galvanizing event. Ignoring how our policies lead to galvanizing events is little different than actually engineering them. Edited October 8, 2018 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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