Canada should renounce democracy

[GostHacked]

1 hour ago, Altai said:

Ofcourse you did. If your grandfather would steal a car, could you tell you will keep using this car because of it was not stolen by you but was stolen by your grandfather ?

Create another topic to discuss about another country. 

This is a terrible attempt at an analogy. And we are talking about Canada and America, but don't tell me what is going on here when you are under a leader like Erdogan.

However there were no courts then to stand up for the natives (that were more brutal to each other than what 'whitey' did to them). at that time. Hell at that time, most white people were under the brutal 'leadership' of European colonizing nations. Most left because they did not want to be under that kind of rule anymore. And that is how the USA and Canada came into existence. Learn your history.

[Altai]

12 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

This is a terrible attempt at an analogy. And we are talking about Canada and America, but don't tell me what is going on here when you are under a leader like Erdogan.

However there were no courts then to stand up for the natives (that were more brutal to each other than what 'whitey' did to them). at that time. Hell at that time, most white people were under the brutal 'leadership' of European colonizing nations. Most left because they did not want to be under that kind of rule anymore. And that is how the USA and Canada came into existence. Learn your history.

LoL why are you continuosly trying to change issue from Canada to Turkiye ? This topic is about Canada, its not about Turkiye or any other countries. As I said if you want to talk about another country, start another topic. You are doing that because you cant tolerate facts when it does not fit with your personal ego. You are living on native people lands and you are trying to create some fabricated stories to justify your dictatorship. Thats all. When I dont accept your stories, this time you are trying to derail topic by accusing other countries. Do you not feel inferior by behaving such ? You steal someones lands and you say it was not you but it was your grand grand grand father and you keep living on stolen lands because its not stolen by you, you just live on stolen lands.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Altai

[GostHacked]

9 minutes ago, Altai said:

LoL why are you continuosly trying to change issue from Canada to Turkiye ? This topic is about Canada, its not about Turkiye or any other countries. As I said if you want to talk about another country, start another topic. You are doing that because you cant tolerate facts when it does not fit with your personal ego. You are living on native people lands and you are trying to create some fabricated stories to justify your dictatorship. Thats all. When I dont accept your stories, this time you are trying to derail topic by accusing other countries. Do you not feel inferior by behaving such ? You steal someones lands and you say it was not you but it was your grand grand grand father and you keep living on stolen lands because its not stolen by you, you just live on stolen lands.

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about most of the time. The broken English throws me off. My personal ego has fuck all to do with history and how it played out. Now the real topic based on the title of this thread is . Canada Should Renounce Democracy. So what you are posting is 100% off topic. So maybe take your own advice and start your own thread about how Canada stole native lands? You've already derailed the thread, so what is the complaint if I derail your derail? 

 

Here I shall post the OP for you to see how far off topic you are.

On 7/4/2018 at 2:14 PM, paxrom said:

Not to single you out canada but all nato-dead beat should renounce the virtue of a free liberal democracy. Why? Because you people are not willing to pay for it. Not willing to pay the ultimate price for freedom. Being under America's security umbrella has given these country un-precedented wealth and prosperity. Money that could be allocated to America's health care and other social policy has been in turn used to make up for our dead beat allies. 

I propose that in keeping with the wishes of both countries, Canada should quickly kowtow to beijing or russia. Renounce any notion of a free and independent country. Turn into hongkong, and elect leaders that are pre approved by the central government. It will make the Russian election meddling look like child's play. Criticism of the central government would be suppress and all dissidents will quickly disappear. Free and independent press would no longer be necessary. George orwell would turn over in his grave at the level of dystopia. But these issue are a small price to pay for getting rid of obnoxious American fascism. 

 

PS, i still love you Canada, but this is tough love.

[Zeitgeist]

I agree with some of your points, Army Guy, except that I disagree about how the Canadian public sees the military and how you characterize the funding of the military.  The military is in many ways the Holy of Holies in Canada.  Visit the Peace Tower or Senate Chamber in Ottawa.  Canada really matured as a country during the First World War.  The contributions were staggering, no less so after the Second World War.  Visit Vimy or Holland and you’ll know what I mean.  At the end of WW2, this tiny country had the third largest navy in the world. Yes the funding should increase and questions of who killed the Canadian military are raised all the time, yet Canadian Forces are one of the highest tech, best equipped forces in the world. Canada can occupy, police and rebuild a country, which is phenomenal when you think about it.  The problem in Canada for the military is that it competes for limited funding with other industries and departments. Canada is a peacemaking country big on international development and justice, which aren’t only military projects. We want a progressive society, because we are very communitarian, which requires investment in health, education, infrastructure, and so many things.  The U.S. spends 20 percent of its GDP on military. It must continue to do so to maintain its military industries, and frankly, employment, as it plays a major role in the U.S. economy.  And yes, some great tech has come out of the U.S. military, including the internet!  However, there is tremendous over capacity in the U.S. military and part of the reason the U.S. continues to try to police the world is to maintain all these bases, but the military also helps maintain U.S. dominance politically and economically.  Controlling ports, canals, and waterways is important.  Canada  can play a greater role supporting the U.S. and NATO countries, but not much more.  It does support them very well.  That support will grow relative to other countries as Canada’s population grows, which is inevitable.  Canada will soon be conducted more like a France or UK as it’s population grows to a similar size, 60 million rather than 36 million.  

[bush_cheney2004]

32 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 ...The U.S. spends 20 percent of its GDP on military. It must continue to do so to maintain its military industries, and frankly, employment, as it plays a major role in the U.S. economy. 

 

Not true...U.S. spending on military/defense is about 4% of GDP.   Canada is about 1% of GDP, far below the NATO goal of 2%.

 

 

[paxamericana]

49 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I agree with some of your points, Army Guy, except that I disagree about how the Canadian public sees the military and how you characterize the funding of the military.  The military is in many ways the Holy of Holies in Canada.  Visit the Peace Tower or Senate Chamber in Ottawa.  Canada really matured as a country during the First World War.  The contributions were staggering, no less so after the Second World War.  Visit Vimy or Holland and you’ll know what I mean.  At the end of WW2, this tiny country had the third largest navy in the world. Yes the funding should increase and questions of who killed the Canadian military are raised all the time, yet Canadian Forces are one of the highest tech, best equipped forces in the world. Canada can occupy, police and rebuild a country, which is phenomenal when you think about it.  The problem in Canada for the military is that it competes for limited funding with other industries and departments. Canada is a peacemaking country big on international development and justice, which aren’t only military projects. We want a progressive society, because we are very communitarian, which requires investment in health, education, infrastructure, and so many things.  The U.S. spends 20 percent of its GDP on military. It must continue to do so to maintain its military industries, and frankly, employment, as it plays a major role in the U.S. economy.  And yes, some great tech has come out of the U.S. military, including the internet!  However, there is tremendous over capacity in the U.S. military and part of the reason the U.S. continues to try to police the world is to maintain all these bases, but the military also helps maintain U.S. dominance politically and economically.  Controlling ports, canals, and waterways is important.  Canada  can play a greater role supporting the U.S. and NATO countries, but not much more.  It does support them very well.  That support will grow relative to other countries as Canada’s population grows, which is inevitable.  Canada will soon be conducted more like a France or UK as it’s population grows to a similar size, 60 million rather than 36 million.  

I agree with most of this post except one point. The US does not simply fund the Military Industrial Complex because there's a conspiracy to or just to do so for the sake of financial benefit but rather we see security as a vital foundation of democracy. Since day one of independence America had to fight for its own existence in the shadow of colonization and empires. Yes having a strong military is one of the core requirement of being a super power. We acknowledge and approve of it willingly not because of some misguided belief that we're simply funding some industrial base with no greater purpose. We consider ourselves a revolutionary force and the best 240 year old experiment that ever existed. That's all this is, an experiment, there's no holy scripture claiming America has the right to exist. It only exist because brave men and women fought to defend it and kept this experiment going. We in the younger generation see a continuation of our fore-bearer's "so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom". 

Edited July 8, 2018 by paxrom

[Zeitgeist]

I think the more important metric to consider is overall funding of international development and security as a percentage of GDP if we want to talk about important contributions that countries make to the world.  For example, Iraq had a million soldiers.  North Korea has a massive military, but how much have these forces contributed to international development and security?  I realize that military plays an important role in international security, but security requires more than that.  The trick is to help countries build a middle class, so that people have communities and businesses to protect rather than trying to blow countries out of the water, taking their stuff, and causing mass migration, which creates instability and organizations like Isis.  It means winning hearts and minds.  Canada plays an important role in soft power.  You need both in the toolkit, strong military and values.  

[paxamericana]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I think the more important metric to consider is overall funding of international development and security as a percentage of GDP if we want to talk about important contributions that countries make to the world.  For example, Iraq had a million soldiers.  North Korea has a massive military, but how much have these forces contributed to international development and security?  I realize that military plays an important role in international security, but security requires more than that.  The trick is to help countries build a middle class, so that people have communities and businesses to protect rather than trying to blow countries out of the water, taking their stuff, and causing mass migration, which creates instability and organizations like Isis.  It means winning hearts and minds.  Canada plays an important role in soft power.  You need both in the toolkit, strong military and values.  

Yup soft power is equally as important as hard power. At the end of the day that's the whole point of even having hard power. 

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I agree with some of your points, Army Guy, except that I disagree about how the Canadian public sees the military and how you characterize the funding of the military.  The military is in many ways the Holy of Holies in Canada.  Visit the Peace Tower or Senate Chamber in Ottawa.  Canada really matured as a country during the First World War.  The contributions were staggering, no less so after the Second World War.  Visit Vimy or Holland and you’ll know what I mean.  At the end of WW2, this tiny country had the third largest navy in the world. Yes the funding should increase and questions of who killed the Canadian military are raised all the time, yet Canadian Forces are one of the highest tech, best equipped forces in the world. Canada can occupy, police and rebuild a country, which is phenomenal when you think about it.  The problem in Canada for the military is that it competes for limited funding with other industries and departments. Canada is a peacemaking country big on international development and justice, which aren’t only military projects. We want a progressive society, because we are very communitarian, which requires investment in health, education, infrastructure, and so many things.  The U.S. spends 20 percent of its GDP on military. It must continue to do so to maintain its military industries, and frankly, employment, as it plays a major role in the U.S. economy.  And yes, some great tech has come out of the U.S. military, including the internet!  However, there is tremendous over capacity in the U.S. military and part of the reason the U.S. continues to try to police the world is to maintain all these bases, but the military also helps maintain U.S. dominance politically and economically.  Controlling ports, canals, and waterways is important.  Canada  can play a greater role supporting the U.S. and NATO countries, but not much more.  It does support them very well.  That support will grow relative to other countries as Canada’s population grows, which is inevitable.  Canada will soon be conducted more like a France or UK as it’s population grows to a similar size, 60 million rather than 36 million.  

How do you see the military ? How does your peer group see the military ? I spent a long time serving , talked to shit tonnes of Canadians about many military topics, and for the most part they all sprout the same tune....Yes we support out military, a lot even went out and purchased those bumper stickers " I support our troops" , mostly because they did not want to be called out when it was not popular to NOT support our military....The question is Do they really support our military ? and if so how far do they support them, to the point they want it properly equipped, funded for training , materials and supplies, , would they use they're personal time to say write a letter to there're MP's , start a petition do something of value that would bring light the true condition of our military...

I have been to Ottawa, seen all the sites , in and out of uniform, on official duties and non official such as war museum, all the different memorials dedicated to those troops that have died, sacrificed for this nation...All the more reason to state what I have stated... our nation should not just remember those troops on Nov 11, nor should they erect some monument and call it even our military is made up of Canadian citizens that decided to sacrifice everything for very little in return....our part is to ensure they have the training, and equipment to do that job....and we have failed big time...next time we say we support the troops we should ask ourselves , how much....    

Not sure where you get your info on our tech or how we are equipped, which is laughable really, we fly aircraft that are coming up on 40 years old, our ships are no better, they army which is considered the best equipped in our military  is decades behind most NATO nations, and you could put in a lot of 3 world nations as well. I mean if you want a list I could give you one...a goggle search would provide better results....shit DND web site list everything we have , including the year we purchased it....DND , and our government has pulled the wool over a lot of Canadians eyes....Our military is in trouble, not only equipment wise, but training , and manpower wise, not to mention infra structure wise. 

Because of all these shortages, we are bleeding off capabilities and knowledge like never before.

Canada can not occupy, police. or rebuild anything with it's military, not with out major US support, but lets not talk about those guys....we don't like them....we need them , but we don't like them.....or should I say most Canadians....

the problem with  is not the competition for funding , but the lack of will to spend it or use it on projects and programs that will not produce votes....

Canada was never intended to be more than a supporting country, but we are failing in that big time....to the point we need more support than we can contribute....And the US is getting tired of it...they are telling us get your shit together, it's time you pay your own way.....can you blame them....and to top it all off what do we do, poke them in the eye, call them names, war mongers, among other things.....shit I know i'm tired of it....Im not the only service person out there that thinks the same way....

Edited July 8, 2018 by Army Guy

[Zeitgeist]

Hmm, not sure of your rank or regiment, but I do know Canadian military quite well.  I’m familiar with accounts of tours in Bosnia, Afghanistan and other commitments.  Canada is capable of building full on bases, airstrips, and hospitals and defending these in hostile territory. It did this in Afghanistan.  While the Hornets are getting old and Canada has really let its submarine capabilities slide, its city class frigates and light armour vehicles are quite state of the art.  It’s into all of the tech, from drones to cyber.  Yes, we’ve needed to rent heavy lift and there are areas that require upgrades, but on the whole the procurements are happening, the training is strong, and the missions successful.  

Edited July 8, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Canada was never intended to be more than a supporting country, but we are failing in that big time....to the point we need more support than we can contribute....And the US is getting tired of it...they are telling us get your shit together, it's time you pay your own way.....can you blame them....and to top it all off what do we do, poke them in the eye, call them names, war mongers, among other things.....shit I know i'm tired of it....Im not the only service person out there that thinks the same way....

Hey brother thank you for your service, though we're on different sides of the border, we fight as one when shit hits the fan. America had the same exact problem with lack of funding and support of our military industrial complex because there were sentiment among the populous of what you described, the lack of political will. Trump is an agent of change, though he leaves much to be desired, his message was clear, we need to fully fund our military to see their mission succeed.

The military held the line and bought us time so that we a-hole back home could figure out how much we let our service member down with continuation sequestration and lack of funding.

There's a bright side to this, America has proven it's political will by passing a bi-partisan support of the largest  military spending bill ever. This should an example to the rest of the free world suffering the same problem.

Military support is a non partisan issue, as it should be. Don't buy in to the belief that you're simply paying for a Military Industrial Complex with no clear purpose. People need to realize that peace is expensive but war is much more costly. Whose the biggest threat to freedom to justify all this spending? China and Russia. They seek to undermine our western democratic model. Some NATO countries like Turkey and a few others started buying into that crap and adopted authoritarian rules. Erdogan is just the start, if we continue on this path of sticking our head in the sand and hoping it will go away that's what you're going to get the slow erosion of democracy until it morph into a de-facto dictatorship with real masters in Beijing and Moscow. 

As Zeitgeist point it out soft power is extremely important in curtailing those malign influences but it needs hard power support. You cannot have one without the other and expect the mission to succeed. You need a strong military to deter aggression so your diplomat can focus on soft-power projects and negotiate from a position of strength. 

As much shit as I give you cannucks I know it is un-realistic to ask every NATO member to start building Aircraft-carriers. That's not what we are asking, we're asking you re-invest into your military and don't let their capabilities erode. Hit the 2 percent GDP marker. If everybody in NATO could at least do that then America can focus its effort in our priority theater the indo-pacific. I might also add that if Canada want to be at the fore front of this fight, you should focus your efforts closer to shore, the arctic circle. Russia is trying to lay vast claims of territory and resources in the arctic ocean of which you also share borders. You need more ice-breakers and submarines to combat these threats as well as a host of support infrastructure to support them. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by paxrom

[Jimwd]

6 hours ago, paxrom said:

I

. We consider ourselves a revolutionary force and the best 240 year old experiment that ever existed. 

Too bad you don’t know your own history, the framers were against a standing military,

There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation, and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors, that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot, but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army.
Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789, 549

[paxamericana]

24 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Too bad you don’t know your own history, the framers were against a standing military,

There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation, and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors, that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot, but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army.
Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789, 549

You're not really discussing the topic but feel free to bring up irrelevant examples of history about standing army. The standing army is about using the military against their own people not because we're trying to fend off external threats. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by paxrom

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, paxrom said:

Whose the biggest threat to freedom to justify all this spending? China and Russia.

Are you talking about the same China America borrowed more than a trillion dollars from?

Quote

They seek to undermine our western democratic model.

The same China that most of America's manufacturers now call home?

[paxamericana]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Are you talking about the same China America borrowed more than a trillion dollars from?

The same China that most of America's manufacturers now call home?

China's economy is as much dependent on the US as we are to them, this relationship benefit the world and both side. Their financial backing is as much useful to them as it is to us. They need greenbacks to stabilize their financial market with currency manipulation. 

But make no mistake, they're seeking to supplant the democratic model with the Ming dynasty model of vassal state, seeking military and economic veto over their neighboring countries. Where we must compete we will do so vigorously. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by paxrom

[eyeball]

5 minutes ago, paxrom said:

But make no mistake, they're seeking to supplant the democratic model with the Ming dynasty model of vassal state, seeking military and economic veto over their neighboring countries.  

You mean the American model of hegemony manifest destiny and imperialistic veto you so vigorously promote?

Quote

Where we must compete we will do so vigorously.

Assuming China lends you the money you need. 

[paxamericana]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You mean the American model of hegemony manifest destiny and imperialistic veto you so vigorously promote?

Assuming China lends you the money you need. 

Since when did we become imperialist? We help rebuild many of the shit-hole that came out of world war 2 or is that an inconvenient truth? It's called the marshal plan, look it up...you're basking in it still to this day. America promote a rule based order that benefited the free world for 70 years or is that too hegemonic and greedy. Hmmm

[Altai]

11 hours ago, GostHacked said:

I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about most of the time. The broken English throws me off. My personal ego has fuck all to do with history and how it played out. Now the real topic based on the title of this thread is . Canada Should Renounce Democracy. So what you are posting is 100% off topic. So maybe take your own advice and start your own thread about how Canada stole native lands? You've already derailed the thread, so what is the complaint if I derail your derail? Here I shall post the OP for you to see how far off topic you are.

You are lying, you understand it well. Now you start personal attacks, this is just another kaffir behavior to derail main topic. Ofcourse my questions perfectly fits with the OP and I am asking that while Canada is not even a democracy, how come it could renounce democracy.

[Zeitgeist]

I agree that the Marshal Plan was a substantial U.S. contribution and that Canada needs to beef up its military in support of NATO and defending the Arctic waters around North America.  I just hope these investments get the biggest bang for the buck, as we’ve all heard horror stories about the replacement nuts and bolts for aircraft that cost hundreds of dollars a piece and look like corporate welfare for military suppliers.  We need to hold government and defence department contracted companies to account.  

Additionally, the U.S. needs to contribute more to the migrant crises and take far more refugees, unless we want to call the U.S. contributions mostly military and the Canadian contributions resettlement, which has been extremely costly to taxpayers.  Just look at what adults and families are given by the government in their first year in Canada. It’s a costly but important contribution that Canada makes. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

20 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 ...Additionally, the U.S. needs to contribute more to the migrant crises and take far more refugees, unless we want to call the U.S. contributions mostly military and the Canadian contributions resettlement, which has been extremely costly to taxpayers.  Just look at what adults and families are given by the government in their first year in Canada. It’s a costly but important contribution that Canada makes. 

 

The U.S. has more landed immigrants and refugees than the entire population of Canada.

[GostHacked]

8 hours ago, paxrom said:

Since when did we become imperialist? We help rebuild many of the shit-hole that came out of world war 2 or is that an inconvenient truth? It's called the marshal plan, look it up...you're basking in it still to this day. America promote a rule based order that benefited the free world for 70 years or is that too hegemonic and greedy. Hmmm

About 70+ years ago.

 

Also who did it benefit? People or the elites?

Edited July 8, 2018 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. has more landed immigrants and refugees than the entire population of Canada.

That sounds like a you problem.

[GostHacked]

5 hours ago, Altai said:

You are lying, you understand it well. Now you start personal attacks, this is just another kaffir behavior to derail main topic. Ofcourse my questions perfectly fits with the OP and I am asking that while Canada is not even a democracy, how come it could renounce democracy.

NO the OP was about military funding to satisfy NATO obligations. Has nothing to do with your posts on democracy.  And saying I have no idea what you are talking about , is not a personal attack. I really cannot understand your broken English most of the time.

[Zeitgeist]

No, do the numbers for the past two years on refugees, especially from Syria, considering that the U.S. has around 10 times the population of Canada.  The U.S. contribution to the refugee crisis is abysmal. 

[jacee]

8 hours ago, paxrom said:

Since when did we become imperialist? We help rebuild many of the shit-hole that came out of world war 2 or is that an inconvenient truth? It's called the marshal plan, look it up...you're basking in it still to this day. America promote a rule based order that benefited the free world for 70 years or is that too hegemonic and greedy. Hmmm

Wow. Are you really that naive?

You think the US 'spreads democracy'?

The US only spreads the evil tentacles of predatory capitalism. 

20 US vets commit suicide every day because they realize why they were really made to invade countries and kill innocent people: Profits for the wealthy.

https://www.rt.com/usa/431777-us-war-veterans-suicides/

what causes the most stress and depression is realizing that all of that was for nothing…And instead of actually being for nothing – that was [so] a few rich and powerful people in the US government and corporations could extend their power further into the Middle East.”

Edited July 8, 2018 by jacee
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