Trump-Trudeau Fall-Out

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, WIP said:

The difference is Canadian liberals, social democrats, socialists etc. don't define their political ideology through being American and expanding trade ties and US ownership of our economy!

 

No difference....Canadian liberals hated FTA/NAFTA, but now they love it ?!

Many Canadians define their very identities as not being American, regardless of political stripes.

[WIP]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

So let me see if I can grasp your "logic" here. Federal Tory leader Andrew Scheer expresses his support for Trudeau. Newly elected PC Doug Ford of Ontario expresses his support of Trudeau in this. Alberta's conservative leader Jason Kennie expresses his support for Trudeau on this. But because someone on a small web bulletin board supports trump you use this to indict all conservatives as having no loyalty to Canada. Have I got that right?

better late than never I guess! Back when Trump announced steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, Doug Trump and others were trying to blame Trudeau's negotiating skills. We should bite the bullet and hit back hard against further US sanctions. Raise the price of oil shipments south back to world market levels...same with essential resources needed for manufacturing. No point hitching our wagons to a dying empire now.

[bush_cheney2004]

11 minutes ago, WIP said:

.... No point hitching our wagons to a dying empire now.

 

Why were the wagons hitched so much to the USA in the first place ?     Go find another host nation.....

[betsy]

10 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Trump never had any intentions of negotiating NAFTA. Trudeau was right to tell Trump to pound sand.

He wants a bilateral deal - and he's got a good point.   Mexico and Canada aren't the same.

Yeah.....pound sand, indeed.  Bravado means squat in this grave situation, if this escalates into an all out trade war.  We don't feel the hurt......yet.

Looking at the faces of our former leaders as they talk about this  - this is really serious! 

Lol,  you can't even say "ride this out until he gets booted out."   What if he got re-elected?  We're facing a few years of this!  Investment has practically fallen off the cliff - that's what Ambrose said!   Pound sand, indeed.   Trade war, let's talk about this in a couple of years.......

........Canada will be the one who'll be eating sand!

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by betsy

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, betsy said:

Lol,  you can't even say "ride this out until he gets booted out."   What if he got re-elected?  We're facing a few years of this!  Investment has practically fallen off the cliff - that's what Ambrose said!   Pound sand, indeed.   Trade war, let's talk about this in a couple of years.......

 

This is a very good observation, as the Canadian losses were happening before Trump ever became U.S. president.    Lower oil prices, carbon taxes, lower productivity, capital flight out of Canada, pipeline wars.... all happening regardless of Trump.

Ontario got fed up with Wynne and the Liberals too, flushing them down to minor party status.

[capricorn]

Quote

Former prime minister Brian Mulroney predicts Donald Trump's unprecedented diatribe against Justin Trudeau is a passing storm.

Mulroney, who has a personal relationship with Trump and has been quietly advising the prime minister on how to deal with the mercurial U.S. president, likened Trump's weekend tirade to "serious summer squalls."

"They come upon you abruptly and they dissipate just as quickly," he said Monday.

"I think it's serious but because it's serious doesn't mean it's lethal."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/former-pm-mulroney-predicts-trump-rage-at-justin-trudeau-a-passing-storm-1.3969200

Question is, was Trudeau listening to Mulroney's advise.

[Michael Hardner]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-white-house-adviser-peter-navarro-apologizes-for-special-place-in/

Quote

White House trade adviser Peter Navarro apologized on Tuesday for his sharp comments directed at Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau after last week’s Group of Seven summit, according to the Wall Street Journal.  At an event hosted by the Journal, Navarro said he had made a mistake, according to the newspaper.

“My mission was to send a strong signal of strength,” Navarro said at the event, the Journal reported. “The problem is that in conveying that message I used language that was inappropriate.”

Navarro has apologized for overstepping and using inappropriate language over the weekend.  Perhaps this signals the first stepping-back of the overheated rhetoric that has been thrown around the last few days. 

[GostHacked]

8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Why were the wagons hitched so much to the USA in the first place ?     Go find another host nation.....

We tried, the US would not let us. Something about the very close proximity of the nations. Not sure.

[GostHacked]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This is a very good observation, as the Canadian losses were happening before Trump ever became U.S. president.    Lower oil prices, carbon taxes, lower productivity, capital flight out of Canada, pipeline wars.... all happening regardless of Trump.

Ontario got fed up with Wynne and the Liberals too, flushing them down to minor party status.

And the USA has been consistently loosing since Bill Clinton was in office.

[PIK]

On 6/11/2018 at 1:25 PM, GostHacked said:

And yet we have Trump who engages everything via Twitter. If you wanna talk about face to face interactions.

The libs should know trump by now and waving the red flag in front of him ,was the wrong thing to do. Justin tried to throw elbow and it cost him.

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

The libs should know trump by now and waving the red flag in front of him ,was the wrong thing to do. Justin tried to throw elbow and it cost him.

I've changed my mind a bit on this fiasco as it's evolved over the past few days. Trump obviously expects Canada and other allies to be subservient to U.S. interests and the Trudeau government's approach of pursuing Canadian interests at various levels, including with members of Congress, state politicians, in the U.S. media and among American business interests has clearly achieved some level of effectiveness as it's irritated Trump and caused him to react in a fashion that undermines his own legitimacy. That being said, our negotiating positions on three issues undermine the government's strategy. First, we have to come to terms with the impact of our supply management system and find a way to start winding it down. Otherwise, our trade strategy will always to some extent be undermined. Second, why we maintain an attachment to a dispute resolution mechanism that has only been used against our interests remains an utter mystery. Is this issue worth sacrificing our broader trade interests and objectives? Finally, while a five year sunset clause is probably far too short a period to assess the effectiveness of changes made to a trade agreement, the idea of periodic review could serve the interests of all parties. In summary, the Trudeau government's outreach strategy seems to be irritating Trump, which could indicate that it's achieved some effect and has substantiated the reality Trump never really intended to bargain in good faith, but the government's priorities need to be re-evaluated if a renegotiated deal has any realistic chance of success.

Edited June 12, 2018 by turningrite

[PIK]

Lets get rid of the supply management,  IF america gives up the massive subsidies that thier farmers get.

[Zeitgeist]

Every concession must be matched on the other side.  Don't let Trump or any world leader think that making threats, launching offensive trade policy, or hurling insults over media is going to be rewarded.  If anything, the effect should be the opposite.  Trump is demonstrating that he is willing to hurt thousands, if not millions, of workers and families for the sake of personal vanity.  What's scarier is his delusionary interpretation of Trudeau's comments at the G7 press conference as "dishonest and weak," when Trudeau was delivering the same message he'd sent since Trump imposed tariffs on Canadian aluminum and steel "for security reasons."  Trump says he will punish "the people of Canada" for his misperception.  Every step of the way, it is Trump who has been out of line.  He should apologize.  He won't.  For the sake of pride and his quasi-national socialist America First approach to trade and foreign policy, Trump is willing to throw allies under the bus, undermine liberal democracy, and threaten the world economy.   

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

... Every step of the way, it is Trump who has been out of line.  He should apologize.  He won't.  For the sake of pride and his quasi-national socialist America First approach to trade and foreign policy, Trump is willing to throw allies under the bus, undermine liberal democracy, and threaten the world economy.   

 

Disagree...Justin Trudeau went out of his way to inject himself into a U.S. presidential election by appearing on U.S. television and taking jabs at Trump and Americans.   Trudeau also imposed 200%+ tariffs/duty on U.S. made gypsum board before Trump was president or the usual softwood lumber battle was enjoined again by Trump (same as other U.S. presidents).

Steel and aluminum tariffs were imposed on many nations....it is not just about Canada/Trudeau being butt hurt because Canada should get special relief.

Trudeau and Freeland have not only challenged Trump with numerous visits and attempts to influence U.S. government policies (Congress/states/business), but they also are/were critical of America's role in the world with expectations that Americans should continue to carry the burden in blood /treasure to protect the "post WW2" western democracies...all while being a deadbeat NATO nation...just like Germany.

If Canada cannot come to terms with a new NAFTA (Liberals hated NAFTA...now they love it ?), then it should just walk away.   Canada has teamed with Mexico even while Mexico has wage and working conditions that Trudeau says he wants to change for his "feminist" agenda.

This spat is not all on Trump.

[Centerpiece]

Some media apologists keep saying that Trudeau didn't say anything different than he's said before. That's true of course, because those few lines were tightly scripted so he wouldn't put his foot in his mouth (yet again). But he chose the wrong time to repeat them.  As the host of the G7 conference, his remarks should have focused on a positive summation of G7 activities and accomplishments - not on our NAFTA squabbles. He should also have taken the opportunity to say that "we're sending our hopes and wishes to Mr. Trump as he attempts to deal with one of the most perplexing and worrying issues of our time" - now that would have won him - and Canada, some bartering currency.  Instead, Trudeau tried to look tough to a domestic audience instead of looking more statesman-like to the world. As it turns out, he did neither.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Centerpiece

[BubberMiley]

But how much can you second guess Trudeau's words when Trump was only trying to generate a media storm to distract from his obvious subservience to Putin in begging for Russia's inclusion in the G7. No matter what Trudeau said (and he really said nothing), there would have been the same reaction, because it worked. That's all anyone wound up talking about.

[bush_cheney2004]

Trudeau waited for Trump to leave....so he could say the Canada would not be "pushed around"...for his domestic audience.

Trump had just shaken Trudeau's hand and agreed to sign a joint G7 communique, typical for such events.

But Trump has "20 televisions" on Air Force One (747).

[Argus]

21 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Of course we do, because we have an awful supply management system that restricts supply, in addition to 300% tariffs.

So basically, you think that the awful supply management system justifies itself...

No. I'm against supply management. I'm also against huge agricultural subsidies. I don't know enough about the subject to know what would happen if we removed the restrictions, but I suspect what would happen is massive amounts of heavily subsidized US dairy products would flood the market, dramatically lowering prices - and running our dairy farmers out of business. Now whether we should just live with that, and have our farmers go and do something else is a question. But of course, the US and EU heavily subsidizes all agriculture, and it's certainly NOT in our interest to not be self-sufficient in basic foodstuffs by having all our farmers run out of business.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, WIP said:

The difference is Canadian liberals, social democrats, socialists etc. don't define their political ideology through being American and expanding trade ties and US ownership of our economy! Canada's conservatives are in a jam now, because Trump and their rhetorical leaders are directly attacking this country, and they've gone quiet all of a sudden. Sun Media newspapers and other US lapdogs are trying to play down the problem as a "Trade Tiff."  They're in a panic because they don't have a way to define being conservative without their usual US reference point.

Not one word you said was true. Nor do you have any evidence to support it. All senior conservative leaders have voiced support for Trudeau, and the news media, including the Sun, Post, etc. are full of contempt for Trump. 

[Argus]

d

Edited June 12, 2018 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada has been attacked for unfair trade on dairy for decades...it is not just a Trump thing.

New Zealand and other nations have also criticized Canada's tariff and non tariff barriers to dairy imports.

 

Quote

Canada's heavily protected dairy industry is again the target of New Zealand dairy companies which have joined US, Australian, European, and Mexican dairy organisations in taking a case against Canada to the World Trade Organisation.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/84402167/nz-dairy-companies-press-wto-over-canadian-subsidies

 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Centerpiece]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada has been attacked for unfair trade on dairy for decades...it is not just a Trump thing.

New Zealand and other nations have also criticized Canada's tariff and non tariff barriers to dairy imports.

 

 

BBBBut.........it's Trump.....so this time it HAS to be a bad thing.

[Zeitgeist]

Stop the disinformation.  Trump is using fear and intimidation to strongarm trading partners into a Mercantilist, lopsided deal. Don’t be naive.  The wisest move at this point is to band together, increase trade with each other, and remind Potus that he isn’t all powerful and unaccountable.  The U.S. is no longer qualified to be the home base for international organizations like the the UN.  The global consensus is that the development of poorer countries, preventing climate change, and having international rules to protect human rights, fair trade, and labour conditions are good things. Trump thumbs his nose at rule of law, especially international rules, like an arrogant fascist, or else he pays lip service to it then blatantly violates it.  It’s irresponsible and certainly not a model of leadership for the kind of world most people want to live in.  The worst thing that could happen is for people to cower as they did under Hitler or Il Duce.  

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Stop the disinformation.  Trump is using fear and intimidation to strongarm trading partners into a Mercantilist, lopsided deal. Don’t be naive.  The wisest move at this point is to band together, increase trade with each other, and remind Potus that he isn’t all powerful and unaccountable.  The U.S. is no longer qualified to be the home base for international organizations like the the UN. 

 

Agreed....and the U.S. is no longer required to pay more for the UN, NATO, NORAD, IMF, and many other international organizations.

Let the deadbeats start paying more...lots more.    Put the UN in Gaza.

[Centerpiece]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

No. I'm against supply management. I'm also against huge agricultural subsidies. I don't know enough about the subject to know what would happen if we removed the restrictions, but I suspect what would happen is massive amounts of heavily subsidized US dairy products would flood the market, dramatically lowering prices - and running our dairy farmers out of business. Now whether we should just live with that, and have our farmers go and do something else is a question. But of course, the US and EU heavily subsidizes all agriculture, and it's certainly NOT in our interest to not be self-sufficient in basic foodstuffs by having all our farmers run out of business.

There's a difference between subsidizing to be competitive - and having price fixing and tariffs to keep competitors out. You're right in that we BOTH don't know the repercussions of change - but putting our farmers on relatively equal footing with the competition with a few caveats to guarantee our national self-sufficiency sounds like a reasonable goal to aspire to - especially when it leads to lower prices and more choice for Canadians.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Centerpiece