Trump-Trudeau Fall-Out

[Kerfuffle]

On 6/13/2018 at 1:53 PM, betsy said:

  Don't go there, because we do worse.    Here in Canada, it seems like it's Canadians who are treated as the second-class citizens!  We got lots of homeless people - and yet our government are going to spend millions building housing for illegal aliens!

 

Your challenge is irrelevant.  I'm not talking about US goods.  I'm talking about China goods! 

You are very fortunate to live in a Country like Canada....very few homeless .....dont have to worry about your kids being mowed down at school......very few Canadians live in trailers....social safety nets such as health care....Canada ranked among the most racially tolerant societies in the world .There are reasons Canada is ranked as one of the best places to live.....if you think its so bad then pack up and leave......

[Army Guy]

Just a question, why is it that if I don't like it we have to leave, I thought change is what our country was built on, new ideas, new challenges....why can these ideas not start with reducing or stopping immigration, .....it seems that everything we have been taught or grown use to has to change....Canadians have to change to accommodate others....is there a point where we can say we like a few things kept Canadian....like Hockey, winter sports, hunting and fishing etc the word eh, maple syrup, or stay where your to, and i'll come where your at....why do we always look at each other and say we need to change because it does not accommodate everyone...maybe we could look after Canadians first just once....fix our own house up, then take in other people.....just an idea.....

[Kerfuffle]

23 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Just a question, why is it that if I don't like it we have to leave, I thought change is what our country was built on, new ideas, new challenges....why can these ideas not start with reducing or stopping immigration, .....it seems that everything we have been taught or grown use to has to change....Canadians have to change to accommodate others....is there a point where we can say we like a few things kept Canadian....like Hockey, winter sports, hunting and fishing etc the word eh, maple syrup, or stay where your to, and i'll come where your at....why do we always look at each other and say we need to change because it does not accommodate everyone...maybe we could look after Canadians first just once....fix our own house up, then take in other people.....just an idea.....

Hi Army Guy.....I am not saying if we dont like whats going on that you have to leave....I just stated it as an option if things are so bad here. I agree with you that we should protect Canadian values and culture....but some on here would rather support Trump and Kim Jung Un ,Vlad Putin then their own government.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Kerfuffle

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Just a question, why is it that if I don't like it we have to leave, I thought change is what our country was built on, new ideas, new challenges....why can these ideas not start with reducing or stopping immigration, .....it seems that everything we have been taught or grown use to has to change....Canadians have to change to accommodate others....is there a point where we can say we like a few things kept Canadian....like Hockey, winter sports, hunting and fishing etc the word eh, maple syrup, or stay where your to, and i'll come where your at....why do we always look at each other and say we need to change because it does not accommodate everyone 

What, exactly, have you had to change in your every day life because of "accommodation"?   Accommodating newcomers/immigrants/refugees certainly hasn't removed anything from my Iife;   I can say Merry Christmas if I want to, despite the desperate attempts of victim-prone conservatives to claim I can't.  I can celebrate all the same religious festivals I celebrated as a child, plus some extras.   I can vote for my preferred candidate, worship my preferred God - or none at all.  I can work, or stay home.  I can dress how I want and in some places, I don't have to dress at all.   I have enough to eat and I have shelter and can live in safety and security, relative to many other parts of the world - including the US.  In addition, in my lifetime, I have seen freedom and equality extended to even more people - women, blacks, gays - than was available to them when I was born.   So please, tell me - exactly how have you  suffered due to accommodation?

 

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 .Canadians first just once..

How exactly, are Canadians not "first"?   How does giving some homeless schmuck, with no job and no money, a place to stay make Canadians who have houses, jobs and money "second"?   

And, please note that the arguments from the conservatives go like this:  "Why should we help immigrants when our own citizens are homeless, hungry etc?  Shouldn't our tax dollars go to helping our people first", and then when ideas are raised that require tax money to help the homeless/hungry/etc, the argument becomes "Well, why aren't they working and finding their own house?  Why didn't they save for retirement?  Why should my tax dollars be used to help people who are simply parasites".    And then they add, for good measure, "We rich people pay the majority of taxes as punishment for doing so well.  The poor people, most of whom simply chose that through the decisions they make, pay hardly anything.  So why should we have to pay so much to help them?  As a matter of fact, the poorer people in our society shouldn't even have as much voting power as we who pay more taxes".

You see how that goes?  The Conservative Capitalist doesn't want to spend money on immigrants, or even (poor) Canadian citizens.   They want to keep as much of the pie for themselves as they can, and you are taking up their cause for them.  

 

Quote

..fix our own house up, then take in other people.....just an idea.....

Certainly, we can always do better - solving issues of homelessness, poverty among single parents and seniors, addiction, better treatment of veterans, prisoners and even domestic and food animals.  But that has nothing to do with *immigrants*; those are problems we would have even if we banned all immigration.  Homelessness, poverty, addiction, crime - those are social issues that require political will to solve, not money.    If you think that eliminating immigration or refugee programs because then that money would go to 'Canadian Citizens', you would be very disappointed.  The government might give a few crumbs to those programs, but the bulk of money saved would go to tax breaks for the people who need it the least - those who think the poor are poor because they refuse to work, that the seniors are poor because they were too irresponsible to save, that anyone can make scads of money, and that it's unfair that people who make six figures should have to pay "such high" taxes and support all these n'er-do-wells. 

[bush_cheney2004]

I love it....Canada is still flipping out over Trump's tariffs, to the point that any MP dissent over supply management will cost them their position in the caucus.

Talk about "robots"....Liberal, NDP, or Conservative MPs must not dare vary from party dogma, even if it costs Canada NAFTA.

Trudeau cannot win a chaos contest with Trump...no way in hell.

Pierre Trudeau, Brian Mulroney, and Jean Chretien were all taken down from within their own party ranks because of dissent.

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Many Canadians are mad as hell...and they won't take it anymore...hilarious !!

http://abacusdata.ca/canadians-mad-at-trump-tariffs-support-retaliation-millions-want-to-do-their-own-part/

 

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Quote

As any American who has spent time in Canada knows, our Neighbors to the North are for the most part very nice and civil people, sort of like a nation of Iowans. But beneath the surface, there is a perpetual simmering resentment of cultural, economic, and political domination by the Colossus to the South, the not-so-civil United States. The U.S. is often perceived in times of cross-border tension as an arrogant and ignorant bully. So when the U.S. is actually led by a proudly arrogant and ignorant bully who is treating Canada contemptuously, the reaction from Prince Edward Island to the Yukon is going to be intense.

Something strange and wonderful has been sparked by @realDonaldTrump's dishonourable comments about this country. I think it might be a Canadian identity.

— John Ivison (@IvisonJ) June 10, 2018

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/trumps-insults-bring-out-canadas-inner-fiery-nationalism.html

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Argus said:

And yet you still cannot name these 'pot shots'.

I've already given the pot shots made by Nellie - several times, Harriet.   Simply ignoring them won't make them go away, you know.....

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

9 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

You are very fortunate to live in a Country like Canada....very few homeless .....dont have to worry about your kids being mowed down at school......very few Canadians live in trailers....social safety nets such as health care....Canada ranked among the most racially tolerant societies in the world .There are reasons Canada is ranked as one of the best places to live.....if you think its so bad then pack up and leave......

I am very, very fortunate to live in Canada.   I value Canada.....thus in my own way, I'm trying to protect the Canada I love!

 

That doesn't mean I have to accept her  self-serving politicians!  

Just look at Trudeau's decisions.  Really?  Trudeau's only desire is to see marijuana legalized.  Ready or not, he wants it done!     Why do I have that feeling that even that, too.....is self-serving?   Mark my words, that marijuana bill will be the next costly boondagle!

From mounting deficits, endless unnecessary expenses, Kinder Morgan, refugees at the border, NAFTA, trade war, CETA.......don't you feel it pouring?

 

Aren't you worried about CPP?

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Now now now....remember Betsy.....you can always ask God for help.....poof all is better

You got that right.  No worries.  We - hubby and I - can live within our means.  Whatever that may be.  

 

Do I sound anywhere  like I'm afraid of the coming pain?  Lol.    We're gonna feel it too, you know.  Meh.   That's our attitude.   Grin and bear it. 

Even Argus suggest I delight in it......of course, delight is not the right word.  I welcome it.

 

 

When Canadians start feeling the hurt - they'll be looking for a new leader!  That's what I'm hoping for.

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Argus said:

I'm not. I'm saying its dumb thinking, not that you are dumb.

Because you cannot blame Trump, for you're a member of his cult. Oh, I freely acknowledge the Liberals brought a lot of stupid baggage to the negotiations, like gender equity and climate change, which were clearly not going to fly. I suspect, however, they were brought in to be 'reluctantly' negotiated away. The Trump demands, like a five year sunset clause, and an all-American arbitration system, were clearly stupid, and no foreign government would agree to those.

And while you're feeling gleeful about this you might want to pause and consider it is almost certain to improve Trudeau's popularity. Possibly by quite a bit.

Why should I blame Trump???   He's doing what he thinks is best for his own country!  He's acting on behalf of his own!  Whether he's making a mistake or not, that's not our problem.  He's not our president!

 

Trudeau will be popular at the onset.   Of course, Canadians will rally behind their government.  That's the knee-jerk reaction. 

If the trade war happens, let's see how he's doing a year or so from now.

 

 

Trudeau should do the same!  Think of Canadians first, before others!

Trudeau should've set aside his juvenile bromanship with Obama from the get go - and like any sensible world leaders, he should've stayed away from taking potshots at Trump during the presidential race!  I suppose Trudeau - like so many progressives - never imagined Trump would win!  Even after that, Trudeau couldn't resist taking more potshots! 

 

Pundits are now saying that nothing Trudeau would've done in appeasing Trump would've worked.  I agree.....because I think it's personal! 

 

The timing of this trade war - 18 months before our next Federal election - could it just be a coincidence?  If this trade war go on, Canadians will be in great pain around that time.....

I won't be surprised if Trump just let him go on with his potshots, knowing that this day will come.  I think Trump will see to it to damage Trudeau that he'll be a one-termer PM.  Of course, that's just my prediction.

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

The U.S. government uses the money it has borrowed from Social Security – just as it uses money you may have invested in savings bonds – to pay for all the services and projects it provides

There's a big difference though:  they don't have a Trudeau for president!

Look at the fiasco he made with Kinder Morgan!  We ended up paying 4.5 billion for something we could've gotten for free!  

 

And now, he wants to throw  CPP on this leaky pipeline!  Duh!   You gonna trust someone like that with your pension?   They can't even fix the phoenix payroll system, for crying out loud!

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

You are very fortunate to live in a Country like Canada....very few homeless ....

Yeah?   Well, those few homeless Canadians will have to wait.  Tough luck.   That's the way it is.

Trudeau will be building housing for illegal aliens!  

 

Illegal aliens come first!  Capice?

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

....social safety nets such as health care....

Right now, patients are being placed in hallways of hospitals due to lack of bedding space. 

With all the never-ending stream of illegal refugees who no doubt  will need health care as well, they'll have to put beds in parking lots!

 

 

guess what patients will end up in the parking lot?   CANADIANS!    That's how the mentality of progressives works!

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

......very few Canadians live in trailers....

To this day and age, our own indigenous people - CANADIANS - don't even have drinkable water! 

  Yet, Trudeau had dealt us with this influx of refugees!

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

....Canada ranked among the most racially tolerant societies in the world .

Twisted kind of so-called tolerance!   Putting illegal aliens ahead of your own citizens!

 

of course, it's all about importing future Liberal voters!

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

8 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Hi Army Guy.....I am not saying if we dont like whats going on that you have to leave....I just stated it as an option if things are so bad here.

You might be the type to pack up and abandon your own country when the going gets tough.....but some of us, don't abandon so easily.   Some of us would want to help bring about changes to make our country better.

 

Imagine what happens if everyone will do as you do.....you'll just leave the country to rot?

  What kind of loyalty is that?

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

9 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

....but some on here would rather support Trump and Kim Jung Un ,Vlad Putin then their own government.

Who among here is supporting Kim Jung Un?   Who's supporting Putin?  Tell me who.....so I can blast them!

Edited June 15, 2018 by betsy

[GostHacked]

1 hour ago, betsy said:

Who among here is supporting Kim Jung Un?   Who's supporting Putin?  Tell me who.....so I can blast them!

Trump does not visit the forums.  Also he just imposed 50 B in tariffs on China.  Are you going to bitch at China when they impose tariffs on the USA? Or will you understand that Trump's actions are the direct cause of other nations imposing similar tariffs on the USA?

And Trump is going to bring down the USA long before Trudeau has any effect on it.

[betsy]

1 minute ago, GostHacked said:

Trump does not visit the forums.  Also he just imposed 50 B in tariffs on China.  Are you going to bitch at China when they impose tariffs on the USA? Or will you understand that Trump's actions are the direct cause of other nations imposing similar tariffs on the USA?

And Trump is going to bring down the USA long before Trudeau has any effect on it.

That's the problem between China and the USA.   Let other nations deal with Trump!  

Just concentrate on our own problem here, okay? 

[cannuck]

10 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Trump does not visit the forums.  Also he just imposed 50 B in tariffs on China.  Are you going to bitch at China when they impose tariffs on the USA? Or will you understand that Trump's actions are the direct cause of other nations imposing similar tariffs on the USA?

And Trump is going to bring down North Korea and make the USA great again long before Trudeau has any effect on it.

There, fixed that for you.

Let's get things in perspective:  Under Xi, China is a superpower.  Under Trudeau, Canada is a stupidpower.

If you pay really close attention to what Trump has done (hope it goes to completion) he may well have stopped what was looking to be probable nuclear conflict on the Korean peninsula.  That means millions of lives far less at risk (they are already blowing up some sites in NoKo as we speak).   FAR more important:  the people of North Korea might now no longer be beggared to fund Rocket Man's rockets and can get to work feeding themselves and making better lives for their families.   That is one hell of an accomplishment if he pulls it off - and to be noted NOBODY before him has got this far, NOBODY.

When I see FAR 23 rewritten and the FAA "approval" (actually obstruction) process called to heal,  that will be my personal measure of accomplishment that once more, NOBODY else has figured out and executed.

[capricorn]

13 hours ago, Argus said:

The Trump demands, like a five year sunset clause, and an all-American arbitration system, were clearly stupid, and no foreign government would agree to those.

It appears sunset clauses are included in a number of trade agreements in other countries.

Quote

But what is so unreasonable about building into trade deals set renewals that require the parties to renegotiate provisions that may have become outdated, particularly since we’ve seen game-changing industries such as social media and shale oil emerge from nowhere? Countries in Europe, Asia and Africa employ sunset clauses of various kinds in their trade deals, often with protections that grandfather investments should an agreement not be renewed (the Netherlands-Poland Bilateral Investment Treaty is just one example). Instead of employing “my way or the highway” tactics, Trudeau could have accepted a sunset clause that grandfathered the protections Canadian industry would need in the event a future U.S. administration decided to walk away from NAFTA.

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-trudeau-starts-a-trade-war-for-political-points-were-the-casualties

The remainder of this article is quite instructive.

Quote

A decade ago, Canada had a US$78 billion trade surplus with the U.S. That surplus was more than halved to US$32 billion five years ago and it was halved again to US$17 billion last year. Five years from now, our ever-shrinking surplus with the U.S. may start to become an ever-growing deficit, particularly since the U.S. has blown past us as a producer of energy — our main exports to the U.S. We are not only at risk of losing this financial mainstay, with the U.S. no longer needing us for energy security, we are also at risk of becoming strategically unimportant.

None of that matters much to Trudeau, who faces a tough re-election next year. NAFTA necessarily thus becomes not an economic exercise but a political one. How to retain the dairy quotas needed for the Quebec vote in the face of U.S. pressure? How to reverse his sagging popularity among Canadians on the whole as the economy fades? The answer is a no-brainer: Declare war on Canada’s Public Enemy Number One — Donald J. Trump. For maximum effect, start right after genial discussions at the G7 meetings during which an unsuspecting Trump had even reportedly agreed to drop his request for that five-year sunset clause.

Trudeau is no Captain Canada.

[GostHacked]

36 minutes ago, betsy said:

That's the problem between China and the USA.   Let other nations deal with Trump!  

Just concentrate on our own problem here, okay? 

This shows that you have no clue how the world operates.

[capricorn]

3 hours ago, betsy said:

The timing of this trade war - 18 months before our next Federal election - could it just be a coincidence?  If this trade war go on, Canadians will be in great pain around that time.....

Indeed, this appears to be good timing from Trudeau's perspective. From my link above.

Quote

“Canadians are polite, we’re reasonable, but we also will not be pushed around,” Trudeau grandstanded as soon as Trump turned his back. It’s a brilliant political strategy. By playing to the Canadian public at Trump’s expense, Trudeau’s popularity has soared. But although Trudeau may be winning in the polls, Canadians are wrong to think Trudeau is winning for them. For Canadians to win, Trump must prevail and the Canadian market must open up.

Trudeau is riding high thanks to anti-Trump sentiments. Could that entice Justin to call a snap summer election?

Quote

While Trump was waving an accusing finger in Canada’s direction on Tuesday, warning that his spat with Trudeau would cost Canadians a lot of money, Trudeau was saying little in reply. In the Commons on Tuesday, Trudeau thanked those who are usually his critics for standing in solidarity with the government.

Still, the Prime Minister must be tempted to do something with this rare moment of Canadian unity. When again is he going to find Doug Ford, the soon-to-be Conservative premier of Ontario, and Jason Kenney, the would-be premier of Alberta, on his side?

Instead of adjourning Parliament for the summer in the next couple of weeks, Trudeau could dissolve it completely, heading to Rideau Hall and telling the Governor-General that he needs an entirely new mandate to deal with this crisis in Canada-U.S. relations.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/06/12/anyone-in-the-mood-for-a-summer-election/

This could be a trial balloon to test election appetite among Canadians.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, capricorn said:

Trudeau is riding high thanks to anti-Trump sentiments. Could that entice Justin to call a snap summer election?

 

Indeed.....and problematic if it takes Trump to rescue Trudeau from his downward spiral.

[bush_cheney2004]

Trump was right to insist on a sunset clause...here's why:

 

Quote

Even if the people of the US, Canada and Mexico had explicitly consented to Nafta in 1994, the idea that a decision made then should bind everyone in North America for all time is repulsive. So is the notion, championed by the Canadian and Mexican governments, that any slightly modified version of the deal agreed now should bind all future governments.

But the people of North America did not explicitly consent to Nafta. They were never asked to vote on the deal, and its bipartisan support ensured that there was little scope for dissent. The huge grassroots resistance in all three nations was ignored or maligned. The deal was fixed between political and commercial elites, and granted immortality.

... Trump was right to spike the Trans-Pacific Partnership. He is right to demand a sunset clause for Nafta. When this devious, hollow, self-interested man offers a better approximation of the people’s champion than any other leader, you know democracy is in trouble.

Donald Trump was right. The rest of the G7 were wrong

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[turningrite]

2 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Trump does not visit the forums.  Also he just imposed 50 B in tariffs on China.  Are you going to bitch at China when they impose tariffs on the USA? Or will you understand that Trump's actions are the direct cause of other nations imposing similar tariffs on the USA?

 

I laughed when I read your first sentence. Visiting the forums would entail taking the time to read them, which apparently isn't one of his strengths. Reportedly, Trudeau isn't much interested in news and current events either. I get the feeling that both of these guys live in echo chambers where they get feedback that conforms to their respective preferences and confirms their preexisting views.

That said, I tend to agree with Trump that globalized trade has been rigged. But Canada, other than for its protected supply management sector, isn't a huge offender. The U.S. too is at fault as it doles out generous subsidies to its farmers and some industries and uses it huge military budget to subsidize industrial enterprises in sectors like aerospace. There are few real 'boy scouts' that can claim total innocence where trade is concerned.