Kinder Morgan , good or bad decision

[Army Guy]

http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/if-ottawa-cant-sell-trans-mountain-itll-need-to-spend-billions-more-to-build-it?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

I know this is a couple days old now, surprised no one has posted anything about it yet.

Did we really need to nationalize this project in order to have it move forward. Is this just some last minute attempt by the liberals to flex some muscle in order to keep the PM's words "this project will move forward regardless" instead of just forcing BC to tow the line, not Justin's style to be forceful perhaps. 

Is it a good decision, do we know of all the risks, i know the Government has not put anything out in the media to let us know of the risks ? or have they ? i mean who is going to buy a pipeline in Canada if we can not complete it, who is going to pay that bill to complete it , experts quote the price tag could go as high as 12 BIL Canadian beaver pelts, that's a lot of fur, even by Justin's standards....What do Canadians think  about such an expenditure. how will this effect the liberals in the polls...

Edited May 30, 2018 by Army Guy

[-1=e^ipi]

Bad decision.

 

Kinder Morgan bought the pipeline in 2007 for $550 million.

Trudeau buys the same but older pipeline in 2018 for $4.5 billion.

 

Kinder Morgan is very happy with the free government money.

 

Trudeau gave up all negotiating power. He killed Energy East, killed Northern Gateway and was extremely passive on his support for Kinder Morgan (just like his passive support for Keystone XL). Then, as polls started to change, he started getting more serious after Kinder Morgan made its May 31 deadline, declares that the pipeline is in the 'national interest' regardless of how much money he promises to give to Kinder Morgan, and declares that the pipeline will get built no matter what.

[capricorn]

In terms of whether the Liberals will be negatively impacted in the polls over the nationalization of the pipeline I say not at all. In fact, the opposite might be true. "Oh look, Justin and the Liberals are so concerned about protecting Canadian natural resources they bought an oil pipeline." And the sentiment might be even stronger in some parts of the country since Kinder Morgan is an American company. "Way to stick it to the Yanks."

From an economic viewpoint it is not a good decision because had the Liberals made sure the rule of law was respected on the ground, not one penny of taxpayers' money would have been needed to build the Trans Mountain extension. Bottom line the Liberals did not have the balls to stand up to the BC government and protesters who now see the feds as wimps and easy to beat down. Opposition and protests against the project will therefore increase and it is doubtful the extension will ever be built. Billions will be paid by the Canadian taxpayers, never to be recouped.

Then, there is the impact on Canada's reputation as a place to invest. A country that nationalizes companies, businesses or national resources sends out the signal that it is not guaranteed that private enterprise will flourish in such a climate. Best to invest your money elsewhere.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong on all counts and that all will end well and we will have dodged a bullet. Yet, looking at what has happened in Cuba and Venezuela following their tendency to nationalize everything in sight, I am left with a queasy feeling.

[Army Guy]

I'd be curious how this is playing out in Alberta, and do they think it's a bad decision ? one has to ask how is this going to effect those pipe lines already canceled , will NB pressure the government to reinstate energy east ? 

[Argus]

It is, as most columnists have stated, a way to get the pipeline built - which is necessary. It is the cowardly way, of course. They could have simply asserted federal jurisdiction and pushed it through. But they feared doing so. And, of course, the only reason this is necessary is because of the way they've been  playing to the environmental crowd at every opportunity, encouraging them to protest, and promising them that if they did, no project would be approved without 'local social license'.

But it ultimately only demonstrates that no large project for natural resources extraction or transport can be undertaken in this country because of the way various governments have imposed draconian legislation and requirements. And this Liberal government is in the process of strengthening those even further with bill C69.

 

[Army Guy]

I think the 4.5 Bil is just the start, and the government MAY have to invest more to get it built, experts are saying up to 12 bil in total cost to get it built....Like you mention who wants to buy a pipeline off of the federal government when there is a huge question mark of it ever getting built....If that is the case do you think the liberals will still be in favor with the rest of the nation.... 

[-1=e^ipi]

15 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think the 4.5 Bil is just the start, and the government MAY have to invest more to get it built, experts are saying up to 12 bil in total cost to get it built....Like you mention who wants to buy a pipeline off of the federal government when there is a huge question mark of it ever getting built....If that is the case do you think the liberals will still be in favor with the rest of the nation.... 

 

That 12 billion is assuming the government is as efficient at building things as the private sector.

 

They will create lots of bureaucracies for this, and have more regulatory reviews and hearings in order to obtain and reobtain social license for the project.

 

Expect various diversity bureaucracies to make sure that the workers have equal representation of women, various minority groups, lgbt people, etc. Also expect a bilingualism bureaucracy for this, a first nations bureaucracy, climate bureaucracy, etc.

 

They will make sure all workers are unionized, overpaid and have lots of vacation time.

 

Will be way over-budget and take years and years to build.

Edited May 30, 2018 by -1=e^ipi

[bush_cheney2004]

This is what Liberal governments do...buy used submarines, used strike fighters, and used bitumen pipelines.

What could go wrong ?

[Centerpiece]

Will they lose votes? I think there's a real danger. BC has three viable Federal parties. I think it's fair to say that the Liberals won a fair number of seats with their eco promises. Many of the sizable number of enviro-voters took a flier on the Liberals and could easily revert back to the NDP or even the Greens. That also has the potential to have the Conservatives win some seats with the split on the Left. I heard a pundit from Quebec say that there might be a small backlash because Quebecers are sensitive to the Feds encroaching on Provincial juristiction. One could argue that they are not - but the feeling of Federal "heavy-handedness" doesn't play well in Quebec. Gilles Duceppe used to call it "Father Knows Best". In Ontario, it might feed the continued narrative of deficits and debt - especially if Ford wins and Ontario's books are found to be worse than thought. Fair or not, the Liberal brand would take an even bigger hit. 

[cannuck]

If Canadian voters are so daft as to have elected little Tur....I mean TRUdeau in the first place, do you think some of the old man's Marxist/Communist stuff playing out on the taxpayers' backs would change anyone's mind?

[betsy]

BAD!

 

This government can't even fix Phoenix payroll system......let alone get into the pipeline business!

 

Justin Trudeau makes me think of a garage-sale junkie!  Buying ageing military Aussie warplanes for our own military,

 

 

Quote

 

Aging fighter jets to be replaced in mid-2020s, Liberals will buy used Aussie planes as stopgap

Ministers silent on cost of buying 18 used Australian FA-18s

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fighter-jet-competition-australian-announcement-1.4444466

 

 

 

and now...............buying a 65 year old pipeline for 4 billion -  which we could've gotten for FREE!

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This is what Liberal governments do...buy used submarines, used strike fighters, and used bitumen pipelines.

 

 

What can I say?  We've got ourselves a yard-sale junkie.

Edited May 31, 2018 by betsy

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

Running the country based on polls... The environment takes backstage as economics move up. The ballooning debt is catching voters attention. 

Let's see, buy an aging pipeline for 4.5b, spend another 20b (mostly to foreign interests) and 3 to 10 years floundering around trying upgrade and expand it and then sell it back to Kinder for 1b. Makes sense to me. 

 

[betsy]

18 minutes ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

Running the country based on polls... The environment takes backstage as economics move up. The ballooning debt is catching voters attention. 

Let's see, buy an aging pipeline for 4.5b, spend another 20b (mostly to foreign interests) and 3 to 10 years floundering around trying upgrade and expand it and then sell it back to Kinder for 1b. Makes sense to me. 

 

 

IF........IF, Kinder would even want it back! 

 

Journalists are asking.....what company would want to come to Canada - let alone get into that pipeline deal - when they'd seen how Trudeau had handled this fiasco!

Edited May 31, 2018 by betsy

[Queenmandy85]

So, you are saying lets not build the pipeline. Why should we help Alberta? That is what you are saying.

[capricorn]

Some of the comments made by Andrew Scheer, Conservative party leader, mirror some of the thoughts expressed on this board.

Quote

"I believe the Liberals would like people to believe (buying) was the only way to get the pipeline built but I think more and more Canadians are realizing that the fact that it's being nationalized is a result of other things that could have been avoided if this government had made different decisions," Scheer said.

If the government had reinforced federal authority for pipelines through the courts and in legislation as soon as B.C. NDP Leader John Horgan became premier last year, Scheer said that would have prevented Horgan from introducing the uncertainty that ultimately led to Kinder Morgan's nervousness that the project would never come to fruition. Instead, he said Trudeau did nothing to fast-track any constitutional references and never introduced legislation to "entrench and enshrine federal jurisdiction."

Horgan's court reference -- to see if B.C. has the constitutional authority to pass a regulation to limit flows of diluted bitumen in the new pipeline pending additional scientific research on how to clean it up a potential spill -- spooked Kinder Morgan investors. The Constitution gives Ottawa jurisdiction over pipelines and many legal experts believe Horgan's regulation won't pass judicial scrutiny, but the company nevertheless halted non-essential spending on the project in early April and demanded Ottawa prove there was certainty to move forward by the end of this month.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/if-you-re-buying-trans-mountain-where-s-your-backing-for-energy-east-raitt-1.3952235

[Centerpiece]

Let's not forget Bill C-49 - the Oil Tanker Moratorium......instead of examining each project on a case by case basis, Trudeau has used his heavy handed approach to directly thwart and future coastal oil projects - in addition to the onerous Impact Assessment process. Talk about sending a message to the industry:

Quote

Environmentalists championed C-48's passage Wednesday because it would effectively prevent another project like Northern Gateway.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-oil-tanker-ban-passes-commons-1.4655077

[eyeball]

17 hours ago, Army Guy said:

http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/if-ottawa-cant-sell-trans-mountain-itll-need-to-spend-billions-more-to-build-it?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

I know this is a couple days old now, surprised no one has posted anything about it yet.

Did we really need to nationalize this project in order to have it move forward. Is this just some last minute attempt by the liberals to flex some muscle in order to keep the PM's words "this project will move forward regardless" instead of just forcing BC to tow the line, not Justin's style to be forceful perhaps. 

Is it a good decision, do we know of all the risks, i know the Government has not put anything out in the media to let us know of the risks ? or have they ? i mean who is going to buy a pipeline in Canada if we can not complete it, who is going to pay that bill to complete it , experts quote the price tag could go as high as 12 BIL Canadian beaver pelts, that's a lot of fur, even by Justin's standards....What do Canadians think  about such an expenditure. how will this effect the liberals in the polls...

I think it's hilarious given the history of oil, Alberta and Ottawa.

What I don't get is what the Liberals imagine they're getting out of this, seats in Alberta or BC? I don't think so.

[Argus]

I mentioned this just yesterday. How the Liberals, in their environmental zeal, will make it impossible to start any new natural resource project in Canada.

With the government’s decision to buy Kinder Morgan’s Trans Mountain pipeline dominating the political agenda in Ottawa, federal legislation that would overhaul Canada’s environmental assessment process is back in the House of Commons, with Conservatives and industry groups warning that it could be a “death knell” for natural resource projects.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/tories-call-liberals-new-environmental-assessment-overhaul-a-death-knell-for-natural-resource-projects

[Michael Hardner]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

But it ultimately only demonstrates that no large project for natural resources extraction or transport can be undertaken in this country because of the way various governments have imposed draconian legislation and requirements. And this Liberal government is in the process of strengthening those even further with bill C69.

 

Hmmmm.... this sounds like a different configuration of the same drivers that gave us the gas plant scandal in Ontario.  Thank you for your succinct explanation.  You have informed me to an opinion on this.

[Army Guy]

16 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

Will they lose votes? I think there's a real danger. BC has three viable Federal parties. I think it's fair to say that the Liberals won a fair number of seats with their eco promises. Many of the sizable number of enviro-voters took a flier on the Liberals and could easily revert back to the NDP or even the Greens. That also has the potential to have the Conservatives win some seats with the split on the Left. I heard a pundit from Quebec say that there might be a small backlash because Quebecers are sensitive to the Feds encroaching on Provincial juristiction. One could argue that they are not - but the feeling of Federal "heavy-handedness" doesn't play well in Quebec. Gilles Duceppe used to call it "Father Knows Best". In Ontario, it might feed the continued narrative of deficits and debt - especially if Ford wins and Ontario's books are found to be worse than thought. Fair or not, the Liberal brand would take an even bigger hit. 

Was it really the liberals eco promises , or just the "anyone but harper campaign" that both the liberals and NDP ran...There are also rumors that new talks of energy East might resume, I've seen a few articles on it already although no one is put a name forward on who is running that challenge, and if energy east gets cranked up, Quebec will be in the same boat as BC...the liberals will soon start to bleed out votes....but will it be enough to make a difference ? 

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I think it's hilarious given the history of oil, Alberta and Ottawa.

What I don't get is what the Liberals imagine they're getting out of this, seats in Alberta or BC? I don't think so.

This is what is so confusing to me, the whole why...what is the liberals strategy on this, why have they chose this hill to fight on....Do you think they believe there is more votes in Alberta to be picked up than votes lost in BC ? 

And what about the green parties leader Elizabeth May, getting arrested, and all the rhetoric they are putting out in the media, this is the hill they plan to die on, nothing else matters...and yet we are not ready both in proven alternatives, or has technology matured enough in this nation to give up fossil fuels anytime soon.... Or maybe it is just me ? 

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So, you are saying lets not build the pipeline. Why should we help Alberta? That is what you are saying.

Shit, if it was up to me Canada would be in the pipe line business, east west north, south, pump as much as we could...But some how we have made it so complicated to do anything here in Canada , and we don't have the leadership or will to change it. 

[Queenmandy85]

5 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Shit, if it was up to me Canada would be in the pipe line business, east west north, south, pump as much as we could...But some how we have made it so complicated to do anything here in Canada , and we don't have the leadership or will to change it. 

I would love to see how you would do running on that platform. Politics is the art of the possible. You cannot build support by confrontation. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Queenmandy85

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I would love to see how you would do running on that platform. 

What if we put a dollar value behind it, similar to that behind kinder Morgan, 4 to 5 bil every year is what they estimate is lost revenues we could use here in Canada... what was northern gate way estimated to bring in each year, energy east , not to mention jobs created both long and short term. reducing the risk of accidents on the road and rail lines...brand new refineries could be built....we could produce our own fuel here in Canada instead of buying it from the states with a huge mark up..

Canadians seem to be OK with all of that, the tree huggers have made it to difficult to drive any infra structure project through ...maybe Alberta should turn the taps off to everyone....tomorrow...until we are all eager to do what every it takes to get our resources to market....