Homosexuality In The Bible

[betsy]

This is the thread to discuss whether homosexuality indeed, is not acceptable to God, or if it is.   One of our posters is very much into this discussion, so I think it best to have a separate thread for it.  I had looked up some arguments being made for homosexuality - that basically says, "it's all a misunderstanding,  something was wrong with the translation and context." 

I would like to tackle some arguments from GayChurch.org.

 

In the Creation Narrative of Adam and Eve,

 

Quote

 

The creation story in Genesis does not pretend to be a history of anthropology or of every social relationship. It does not mention friendship, for example, and yet we do not assume that friendship is condemned or abnormal. It does not mention the single state, and yet we know that singleness is not condemned, and that in certain religious circumstances it is held in very high esteem” (pages 49-50).¹

In other words, Adam and Eve is the only relationship for this specific account that makes sense. It is a story about creation, and only a procreative (i.e. hetero-sexual) relationship would be appropriate for this particular story. If someone, in spite of this, were to base his or her opinion of homosexuality on the Creation story alone, their stance would not only be out of context, but also based on a weak argument.

 

https://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/the-bible-christianity-and-homosexuality/

 

Adam and Eve narrative is not merely given as a procreation story.  It goes well beyond the physical union of a man and a woman. 

 

Genesis 2

²² And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

²³ And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

²⁴ Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

²⁵ And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

Why do you have to leave your parents if it's just to procreate?  It's a whole lot more than just that.

 

Adam and Eve narrative,  is given as the history of  the institution of marriage (the union between a man and a woman ), and family.   

 

To become one flesh - meaning to be one spiritually, emotionally, financially, intellectually. 

 

Quote

 

Each partner is no longer to see money earned as “my” money; but rather as “our” money. Ephesians 5:22-33 and Proverbs 31:10-31 give the application of this “oneness” to the role of the husband and to the wife, respectively. 

  Even in the sexual aspect of their relationship, a husband and wife are not to consider their bodies as their own but as belonging to their partner (1 Corinthians 7:3-5).   Nor are they to focus on their own pleasure but rather the giving of pleasure to their spouse.

 

As nice as it may be for two people to live together meeting each other’s needs, God has a higher calling for the marriage.

Even as they were to be serving Christ with their lives before marriage (Romans 12:1-2), now they are to serve Christ together as a unit and raise their children to serve God (1 Corinthians 7:29-34; Malachi 2:15; Ephesians 6:4).

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/one-flesh-marriage.html

 

 

 

To be continued....

Edited March 2, 2018 by betsy

[Goddess]

I think the Muslim "chick" already has a thread on why homosexuals need to die.

Maybe you could just add to that one.

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Goddess

[Queenmandy85]

For 25 years as a peace officer, I worked on the Sabbath many times. Liviticus tells me that is a bad thing. My uniform mixed cotton, wool and synthetic fibres which the Bible says is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. I often eat bacon and eggs. Would you (Betsy) want to see me stoned (to death, before anyone makes wise cracks)?  I try to live a Christian life and I cannot believe God would condemn people for falling in love. Being gay is not a choice, it is an act of a loving God.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Queenmandy85
Punctuation correction

[betsy]

50 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

For 25 years as a peace officer, I worked on the Sabbath many times. Liviticus tells me that is a bad thing. My uniform mixed cotton, wool and synthetic fibres which the Bible says is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. I often eat bacon and eggs. Would you (Betsy) want to see me stoned (to death, before anyone makes wise cracks)?  I try to live a Christian life and I cannot believe God would condemn people for falling in love. Being gay is not a choice, it is an act of a loving God.

Irrelevant.

[Queenmandy85]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

Irrelevant.

Are you saying the Leviticus is only partly right? Are you saying parts of the Bible are irrelevant? The Bible says that because I worked on the Sabbath, I should be put to death. Leviticus says the Lord views my uniform in the same light as homosexuality. Are you cherry-picking the word of the Bible?

[betsy]

Quote

Arsenokoitai (arsenokoitai) – This Greek noun is formed from the joining together of the Greek adjectival prefix for male (arseno-) and beds (koitai). Literally then it would mean, “male beds.” It is found in 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9. This is the first appearance of the word in preserved Greek literature and outside of these two verses this word does not appear in the New Testament. The Greek word arsenokoitai is mentioned in both 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 and its meaning is debated. Because of the obscurity of this word and the lack of outside sources to shed light on its meaning, we must derive its meaning from the text.

https://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/the-bible-christianity-and-homosexuality/

 

Here's the rebuttal:

 

Quote

 

 In an attempt to make homosexual behavior compatible with Christianity, they attempt to redefine the Greek word.

 

Arsenokoitai is a compound word: arseno is the word for “a male,” and koitai is the word for “mat” or “bed.” Put the two halves together, and the word means “a male bed”—that is, a person who makes use of a “male-only bed” or a “bed for males.” And, truthfully, that’s all the information we need to understand the intent of 1 Corinthians 6:9.

The word meaning “bed” carries a sexual connotation in this context—the Greek koitai is the source of our English word coitus (“sexual intercourse”). The conclusion is that the word arsenokoitai is referring to homosexuals—men who are in bed with other men, engaging in same-gender sexual activity.

 

The notion that some homosexual relationships are accepted is not even hinted at in this passage. The men’s commitment level or the presence of “love” is not addressed.  

Paul’s reference to “homosexuals,” together with a reference to “effeminate” men in the same verse (in the NASB), effectively covers both active and passive homosexual behavior. God’s Word is not open to personal interpretation in this matter. Homosexuality is wrong; it always has been, and it always will be.

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/arsenokoitai.html

[betsy]

33 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Are you saying the Leviticus is only partly right? Are you saying parts of the Bible are irrelevant? The Bible says that because I worked on the Sabbath, I should be put to death. Leviticus says the Lord views my uniform in the same light as homosexuality. Are you cherry-picking the word of the Bible?

No.  Some commands are meant only for Jews (Lev and Deut) - because they were supposed to be a holy nation - a nation of priests!

 

I'm saying your opinion is irrelevant.  That's all it is - your opinion.   Your mention of bacon and eggs, even makes it all the more obvious - why do you think Christians can eat bacon and eggs?  Do you know?

  Why do you merely rely on Leviticus?    Am I arguing for Jews?

Have you seen what I gave in the OP?  Read the verses that are mentioned!

 

If you want to discuss the difference(s) between Jews and Christians - create your own thread!

 

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by betsy

[Queenmandy85]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I have never heard of the concept that the Bible has some rules for jews and some for the rest of us. I guess I don't understand why God would create homosexuals and then say they are wrong. It just doesn't mesh with the concept of a loving God.

[betsy]

5 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Sorry, I misunderstood. I have never heard of the concept that the Bible has some rules for jews and some for the rest of us. I guess I don't understand why God would create homosexuals and then say they are wrong. It just doesn't mesh with the concept of a loving God.

I advice you to study the Bible, if you're interested. 

You can't simply jump in in this kind of discussion without understanding some of it.

Edited March 2, 2018 by betsy

[Queenmandy85]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

I advice you to study the Bible, if you're interested.

Okay.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Okay.

You just agreed to study the bible.

You don't need to.  The answer is that Christianity, like any life choice, is fallible and falls apart in the lives of people who don't get it.  Christian Pride is an abomination today.

[?Impact]

Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? - John 21:20

So just who was the beloved disciple, that is having the intimate relationship with Jesus?

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You just agreed to study the bible.

You don't need to.  The answer is that Christianity, like any life choice, is fallible and falls apart in the lives of people who don't get it.  Christian Pride is an abomination today.

Actually I agreed to study the Bible if I'm interested. Also, pride goeth before the fall.

[WestCoastRunner]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

This is the thread to discuss whether homosexuality indeed, is not acceptable to God, or if it is.   One of our posters is very much into this discussion, so I think it best to have a separate thread for it.  I had looked up some arguments being made for homosexuality - that basically says, "it's all a misunderstanding,  something was wrong with the translation and context." 

 

Don't you mean this thread is to spread bias and hatred against the LGBT community?

[Michael Hardner]

34 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Don't you mean this thread is to spread bias and hatred against the LGBT community?

Actually, it's to formulate thin and baseless legal arguments that say hating gay people is constitutionally protected.  

[WestCoastRunner]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Actually, it's to formulate thin and baseless legal arguments that say hating gay people is constitutionally protected.  

True indeed.

[Queenmandy85]

3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Actually I agreed to study the Bible if I'm interested. Also, pride goeth before the fall.

Betsy, just to be clear, I am interested in the Bible, having lived with a theologian for ten years. 

[betsy]

15 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? - John 21:20

So just who was the beloved disciple, that is having the intimate relationship with Jesus?

Every gesture has to have a sexual connoitation with you?  Nothing is innocent anymore?  Two girls holding hands are automatically lesbians?  An older man rubbing the shoulders of a boy must be a pedophile!   Two men sharing a bed are gay!  Male-bonding must be an orgy to you?  You see sex in everything?

 

The beloved is believed to be John.  He is what you'd call, the best friend.  You think Jesus didn't have a best friend like any other human being?  

  Jesus even entrusted His own mother in John's care just before He died.

 

Quote

Church history tells us that the apostle John lived into the A.D. 90s and was the last surviving apostle. Early church tradition was unanimous in identifying John as the disciple whom Jesus loved. It seems that John had a closer relationship with Jesus than any of the other disciples. Jesus and John were essentially “best friends.”

Jesus entrusted John with the care of His mother, gave John the vision of the transfiguration, allowed John to witness His most amazing miracles, and later gave John the Book of Revelation.

https://www.gotquestions.org/disciple-whom-Jesus-loved.html

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

18 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I guess I don't understand why God would create homosexuals and then say they are wrong. It just doesn't mesh with the concept of a loving God.

Why are there born crippled and malformed people?  Does that mesh with a loving God?  We do not know why - nor can we fully understand God's thinking and purpose.  We don't have the full capacity to think the way He does. 

The Pastor Charles Price tells of the day he was leading the prayer thanking God for the recovery of a sick child.  He caught sight of a woman who stood up and left the church.  He saw the woman again outside and asked her why she left - if everything is alright.  She said she just lost her son a week ago.  Two Christian mothers - one had gained her son back, while the other had lost hers.  Why?  

Years later, Charles Price received a letter from the bereaved mother, who informed him that she had founded an organization (I forgot what it was), and that her faith is strong as ever.  We don't know God's plan.  Usually, we only begin to understand through hindsight......when we look back, and see what had transpired from it.

 

The testimonies by millions of people - telling of God's presence in their lives, and how they were transformed - is all the evidence we need.

 

Why is it easier for other people to take the life of another human being?  Did He create murderers? 

Why do some have the tendency to stray from marriage?  Were  adulterers created by God? 

If God had created homosexuality - would He call it unnatural? 

What about people who practice bestiality - would He have created bestiality too?

 

Man is easily drawn to sin.  That's a fact. 

God had given us a conscience........and, free will.

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[WestCoastRunner]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

 

If God had created homosexuality - would He call it unnatural? 

Man is easily drawn to sin.  That's a fact. 

 

 

This is how religion inspires hatred, intolerance and violence. Betsy, you need to look into your soul and reflect how incredibly damaging and hurtful your statements are to your fellow human beings. 

This biblical BS just encourages teen suicide in the lgbt community. 

[Michael Hardner]

25 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

This biblical BS just encourages teen suicide in the lgbt community. 

Holy books aren't the problem, it's the behaviour that people justify that is the problem.

Jesus was pretty crystal-clear about loving sinners, leading by example, but there are too many people who refuse to challenge themselves, and love sinners.  Jesus' message was simple but difficult to follow.

Religious types talk about the decline of our culture, but the decline of religious culture is as bad as any general decline that they allege.  The best followers of Christ's philosophy that I know are all agnostics.

[dialamah]

59 minutes ago, WestCoastRunner said:

This is how religion inspires hatred, intolerance and violence. Betsy, you need to look into your soul and reflect how incredibly damaging and hurtful your statements are to your fellow human beings. 

This biblical BS just encourages teen suicide in the lgbt community. 

Not to mention that this attitude inspires the killing of homosexuals, here and around the world.   God clearly did create homosexuality, since animals practice it as well as humans.  

Quote

According to Petter Bøckman, Zoologist and Lecturer at the Natural History Museum in Oslo, ‘homosexual behaviour has been observed in over 1,500 species’ and the list includes ‘lions, wolves, deer, seagulls, elephants, monkeys, dolphins, a couple of frog species, some fish, a few insects and an octopus’.

Quote

around one in ten domestic rams demonstrate a lifelong preference for other males. Research has shown that the part of the brain that controls sex hormones—the hypothalamus—is half the size in gay rams than in their heterosexual counterparts, suggesting that their behaviour is biologically determined

 

Quote

Social order in female-dominated bonobo society is maintained by regular sexual contact between members of the same or opposite sex. Individuals caress or lick each other’s genitals, males engage in ‘penis fencing’ and females rub their genitals together in a variety of social situations, from greeting to easing tensions after a fight, and even when sharing food.

Clearly, if God is responsible for all creation then he is also responsible for homosexual behavior among animals and people.  Why would a loving God damn some of his human creatures by making them homosexual and then decreeing it unacceptable?   I don't believe such a God would, but I fully believe humans would be happy to use God and religion to control behavior.

Early Christianity had a ritual that bound people of the same sex into a church sanctioned union.  Some scholars believe this was akin to same-sex marriage, while others maintain it was non-sexual.  Given that in its infancy Christianity was strongly influenced by Roman practices and homosexuality was an accepted aspect of Roman life, it does seem likely that this type of union was to accommodate homosexual couples.

Edited March 3, 2018 by dialamah

[betsy]

30 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Not to mention that this attitude inspires the killing of homosexuals, here and around the world.   God clearly did create homosexuality, since animals practice it as well as humans. 

You said you've read the Bible.  Looks like  you only read the first sentence?

 

I know atheists  -  who are of course evolutionists -  associate themselves with animals ..........

Maybe...... at least.......you ought to read Genesis 1.  Here is part of it - the part when God started creating creatures:

 

Genesis 1

²⁰ And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.”

²¹ So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

²² God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” ²³ And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

²⁴ And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.

²⁵ God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

 

 

 

EXCEPT for MANKIND.......

...........when God created other creatures - do you see anything specifically mentioned about their genders? 

 

Mankind is the only creature that's been created in the image of God.  Lest you tax yourself mulling about that and wondering what gender God is  - we don't mean PHYSICALLY (after all, God is invisible.  He's a spirit).

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, betsy said:

”

²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

 

 

 

 

 

Is God male AND female?   

It was when I read the bible and saw how contradictory it was, and how cruel God was, that I became a non-believer.

[betsy]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Is God male AND female?   

It was when I read the bible and saw how contradictory it was, and how cruel God was, that I became a non-believer.

Hahahaha 

You responded too fast.  I edited.....and read you like a book.  I anticipated you'd be asking that.  Read my response to you above!  Never mind....you'd most likely be lazy to scroll up.  here is my statement above:

 

Mankind is the only creature that's been created in the image of God.  Lest you tax yourself mulling about that and wondering what gender God is  - we don't mean PHYSICALLY (after all, God is invisible.  He's a spirit).

 

You're not a spirit, are you? Don't take my word for it.  Ask a stranger on the street if he can see you.

Edited March 3, 2018 by betsy