Homosexuality In The Bible

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, betsy said:

Bye, Goddess.  Obviously, the OP went over your head.

Toodles!  Have fun judging and condemning! 

[betsy]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Toodles!  Have fun judging and condemning! 

Oy....you insist falsely  judging and condemning me, Pot?    Whatever. 

 

Toodles.

Edited March 20, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

Whew. 

That was a good example of how certain lefties try to win a losing battle.  If they can't shame you to shut up - because they don't want to hear what you're saying -  they always end up calling you names.  

 

It never occur to them to just....avoid the thread.  I mean - just read the title.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

But naked guys with foot fetishes are okay. All others REPENT!

[Rue]

I think Queen Mandy a bit back raised the salient response which is if Betsy you want to interpret the Bible literally as you do that is your choice.

Many of us do not read it literally but as an set of allegories or fables created to illustrate lessons.

In fact in Judaism the Bible is said to have an infinite number of meanings per each sentence in it. The Bible is referred to as an onion with infinite  layers and when you peel one back to reveal its meaning , another one is revealed and  so on. Each meaning's revelation can makes one's eyes tears  just like when you peel an onion.

In your case you appear to have see one level or one possible interpretation of the words you read and then stopped believing there is  only that one meaning to be derived from what you read.

Nah. Too easy.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Rue

[betsy]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

I think Queen Mandy a bit back raised the salient response which is if Betsy you want to interpret the Bible literally as you do that is your choice.

Many of us do not read it literally but as an set of allegories or fables created to illustrate lessons.

In fact in Judaism the Bible is said to have an infinite number of meanings per each sentence in it. The Bible is referred to as an onion with infinite  layers and when you peel one back to reveal its meaning , another one is revealed and  so on. Each meaning's revelation can makes one's eyes tears  just like when you peel an onion.

In your case you appear to have see one level or one possible interpretation of the words you read and then stopped believing there is  only that one meaning to be derived from what you read.

Nah. Too easy.

 

You have the choice to interpret the Bible any way you see fit, too - and can even presume and add to it (even if the statement is really quite simple).  

I don't want to add for the obvious reason that I try to follow what is written - and because it says somewhere that we're not supposed to add anything. 

 

Proverbs 30    Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

 

Deut 4: 2   "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

 

Deut 12:32 "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

 

 

 

Quote

in your case you appear to have see one level or one possible interpretation of the words you read and then stopped believing there is  only that one meaning to be derived from what you read.

 

In other words.....is  that really what God is saying?  That's quite reminiscent of the serpent's question:

 

Gen 3: 1-4  Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

Well, we know where that question had  led Eve..........and the rest of mankind!

 

So yeah, in my case.....I see only one message to something that is simply and plainly written.  It's not like as if there are no cross-references to other verses that's consistent with the message that I see.  That's one way to know if one's interpretation is true.  It shouldn't contradict any other message of God in the Scriptures.   

 

Therefore, onion skin shouldn't reveal any contradicting messages to the previous ones that's been revealed.

Otherwise..... what we have is a convoluted book of bull! Right?  Do you think God would create and  give such a book?  What does that make of God besides making Him unreliable, and non-credible?  We have a lunatic God?

 

Some people think that God can't state anything to be just as simply as it's clearly stated - that if it came from God, it's gotta be more complicated than that. I mean.....how many times can we interpret,  or re-invent,  Thou shalt not murder?   Or, Thou shalt not commit adultery?

 

Another thing.........Judaism doesn't use the New Testament.  And, to a Christian, the Bible doesn't end in the Old Testament.  

Edited March 22, 2018 by betsy

[JamesHackerMP]

On 3/20/2018 at 3:05 PM, betsy said:

I'm not God. 

No, but you brought up the whole thing. If you won't answer the questions you bring up, then I have nothing to add. With all due respect, betsy, this isn't a discussion thread it's a sermon. I signed on to Maple Leaf Web to have the former, not the latter.

[betsy]

6 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

No, but you brought up the whole thing. If you won't answer the questions you bring up, then I have nothing to add.

????

What kind of logic is that?  Don't you get the point why I brought up those questions?

 

 

Quote

With all due respect, betsy, this isn't a discussion thread it's a sermon. I signed on to Maple Leaf Web to have the former, not the latter.

 

Then, you should pay attention to the title of the topic (and read the OP carefully).... before you get sucked in.  

With all due respect, if the premise of the topic is as the title says it will be - then, expect it to be like as you described it, a "sermon"..........after all, I'll be using the Bible, won't I? 

If the title says "Homosexuality in the Bible,"

don't expect it to be anything else but the Bible!  Personal opinion won't count much - not in this topic.  

If your opinion is shown to contradict, or is inconsistent with the Bible, of course it'll get torpedoed and blown to smithereens.  Anyone who's got a problem with that - well, my shotgun ain't loaded, and it's not pointing at you.

 

 

Anyway....discussing the very thing that the title says it would (using the very thing that it says it would)...... is  now labelled  a......... sermon? 

 

Good grief.

Edited March 23, 2018 by betsy

[JamesHackerMP]

Betsy, do you think you could refrain from

CAPITALIZING EVERYTHING UNDER THE GOD**** SUN? IT'S CONSIDERED TO BE IN POOR TASTE. JUST LIKE HOMOPHOBIA.

Maybe, just maybe, people will be able to engage you, because it won't come off as shouting.

So what part of the bible says that homosexuality is actually evil? Give me a few quotes, chapter and verse. I've got the book right here, complete with annotations.

Good grief indeed.

Edited March 23, 2018 by JamesHackerMP

[Penderyn]

3 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Betsy, do you think you could refrain from

CAPITALIZING EVERYTHING UNDER THE GOD**** SUN? IT'S CONSIDERED TO BE IN POOR TASTE. JUST LIKE HOMOPHOBIA.

Maybe, just maybe, people will be able to engage you, because it won't come off as shouting.

So what part of the bible says that homosexuality is actually evil? Give me a few quotes, chapter and verse. I've got the book right here, complete with annotations.

Good grief indeed.

Does any part of the anthology called 'the' Bible mention  our modern concept of homosexuality, rather than just behaviour we'd describe as such?   I was trying earlier to suggest that anachronistic thinking is a good way to produce ludicrous behaviour.

[Rue]

On 3/22/2018 at 5:12 AM, betsy said:

You have the choice to interpret the Bible any way you see fit, too - and can even presume and add to it (even if the statement is really quite simple).  

I don't want to add for the obvious reason that I try to follow what is written - and because it says somewhere that we're not supposed to add anything. 

 

Proverbs 30    Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

 

Deut 4: 2   "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

 

Deut 12:32 "Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

 

 

 

 

In other words.....is  that really what God is saying?  That's quite reminiscent of the serpent's question:

 

Gen 3: 1-4  Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

Well, we know where that question had  led Eve..........and the rest of mankind!

 

So yeah, in my case.....I see only one message to something that is simply and plainly written.  It's not like as if there are no cross-references to other verses that's consistent with the message that I see.  That's one way to know if one's interpretation is true.  It shouldn't contradict any other message of God in the Scriptures.   

 

Therefore, onion skin shouldn't reveal any contradicting messages to the previous ones that's been revealed.

Otherwise..... what we have is a convoluted book of bull! Right?  Do you think God would create and  give such a book?  What does that make of God besides making Him unreliable, and non-credible?  We have a lunatic God?

 

Some people think that God can't state anything to be just as simply as it's clearly stated - that if it came from God, it's gotta be more complicated than that. I mean.....how many times can we interpret,  or re-invent,  Thou shalt not murder?   Or, Thou shalt not commit adultery?

 

Another thing.........Judaism doesn't use the New Testament.  And, to a Christian, the Bible doesn't end in the Old Testament.  

You know I do not doubt your faith or question it or your interpretation of the Bible. You know you there are some strong ethical feelings we both share as to the sanctity of life and how we both belief it is a gift. Obviously you and I won't agree on how to use the Bible at times. That's o.k. I respond to show you I never ignore your thoughts. I think you preach because you care. I just come from a world where the "God" I have witnessed is  not necessarily detached from the "Satan" I have witnessed and the dynamic between the two to me is a constant process of the two clashing. I don't see it in as literal or as rigid terms as you.

You will find this interesting. This Satan as you would call it I have seen of course and encountered. Problem is HE took the body of a man and was quite decent and kind and did wonderful things. You know that is precisely the issue. What appears to be and what is, well that is the question you and I face. Funny Betsy but so far, I have smelled "him" out every time.

Call me lucky. I don't rely on my smell. The guard is always up so to speak. The tricky thing is not mistaking the good for bad and vice versa. Wish I had an easy method for that to tell you.

You might want to try visit some other places of serenity  like a Bhuddist temple, maybe a river bank. You'd be surprised what a change of scenario can do. Me I like it sometimes sitting with my dogs near moving water. Now that's a way to get the message without any specific words or lessons.

[betsy]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

You might want to try visit some other places of serenity  like a Bhuddist temple, maybe a river bank. You'd be surprised what a change of scenario can do. Me I like it sometimes sitting with my dogs near moving water. Now that's a way to get the message without any specific words or lessons.

I know serenity.   I know about that peaceful calm, deep inside. 

While doing a worship (not at a church or temple), I've experienced too, that sudden escalating feeling of joy that filled the heart that it felt like my heart would literally burst - the amazing thing was that I didn't feel any fear at all.  After it subsided, I had to sit down, in awe....and I marvelled at what just happened.

 

We can talk to God anywhere.  We can be with God anywhere. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

5 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Betsy, do you think you could refrain from

CAPITALIZING EVERYTHING UNDER THE GOD**** SUN? IT'S CONSIDERED TO BE IN POOR TASTE. JUST LIKE HOMOPHOBIA.

Maybe, just maybe, people will be able to engage you, because it won't come off as shouting.

 

Good grief indeed.

 

Look again.

They weren't capitalized.  They're simply enlarged.    

 

In some cases, I have to.    Some things are either being deliberately ignored......or overlooked. 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by betsy

[JamesHackerMP]

No, under internet etiquette it's considering to be SHOUTING. You confuse someone "disagreeing" with you, with "overlooking/ignoring" your points. I think you'll find it turns people off less if you just write normally. Besides, if you're talking about the Bible, the words should speak for themselves, no?

Can you tell me which verses in the Old or New Testament actually say "homosexuality is a choice"? I've got a copy of it with me.

Edited March 25, 2018 by JamesHackerMP

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, JamesHackerMP said:

Can you tell me which verses in the Old or New Testament actually say "homosexuality is a choice"? I've got a copy of it with me.

Of course there are none.  And arguing with fundamentalists may be a way to pass a Sunday afternoon but it won't lead anywhere.  Old ideas will die when the bearers of said ideas die.  

Of course, we could always threaten bigots with amending the constitution:
 

Quote

 

Most amendments can be passed only if identical resolutions are adopted by the House of Commons, the Senate and two thirds or more of the provincial legislative assemblies representing at least 50 percent of the national population. This formula, which is outlined in section 38 of the Constitution Act, 1982, is officially referred to as the "general amendment procedure" and is known colloquially as the "7+50 formula".

It's unclear to me, though, if that much effort is needed to just repeal tax-exempt status.  Of course, none of this would be necessary if religious people just shut up and stop trying to exact undue influence on the rational citizens of Canada.

[Michael Hardner]

You know, though, it would give them something to focus on so we wouldn't have to hear any more bullshit about how saying "Merry Christmas" is illegal, or how Christ wants you to kill queers.

[betsy]

4 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

No, under internet etiquette it's considering to be SHOUTING. .

Capitalized fonts = shouting.  Enlarged fonts, is not.  Why the heck are we given the usage of large font in forums???    You're losing credibility, James.

 

 

Quote

You confuse someone "disagreeing" with you, with "overlooking/ignoring" your points. I think you'll find it turns people off less if you just write normally.

No.  It's a common ploy to ignore....you're like Bubbermiley, and the others I debate with in other forum.  They use the same tactics.  When they can't refute it, they ignore it.

 

 

Quote

 

Besides, if you're talking about the Bible, the words should speak for themselves, no?

Can you tell me which verses in the Old or New Testament actually say "homosexuality is a choice"? I've got a copy of it with me

 

It's not about whether it's a choice or not.  It's about what's written in the Bible. 

And yes, simple statements - consistent and not in contradiction with any other verses - speak for themselves.  You got that right......so, why are you resisting? 

 

You do realize that it's not really me who you're going up against with, do you James?  I'm simply quoting the Bible and showing all the cross-references.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by betsy

[JamesHackerMP]

You've been ignoring what I have said plenty. I asked you for verses that say homosexuality is wrong, and that it's a sin we bring on ourselves. If I have missed your actual point, then please clarify it for me. Sorry I'm so incredibly dogdy. (Geeze.....)

Your original post said that the Adam & Eve story is more than about procreation. True. But it does not, in and of itself, really say anything damning about homosexuality. In fact, it doesn't mention it at all. I've got the book right in front of me, I've read both creation stories (Gen 1, Gen 2.)

There's quite a lot in the rest of the Pentateuch (or Torah, if you like) about sexual rules. However, the Torah becomes less relevant for Christians as St. Paul began to convert Gentiles to Christianity in the first century. Jesus was a Jew, yes but in the gospels, he is already jettisoning some of the old laws. Does it not follow that at least some of the old laws had become obselete, at least in the context of the New Testament?

It puzzles me why some Christians, especially of the more conservative bent, rely so heavily on the Old Testament. Yes, it's part of the canon, but in the context of Christianity, it isn't as important when you get right down to it. If it is still important, it needs to be taken in its context, because no modern Christian I am familiar with follows all the old Jewish laws in the OT. Why should the matter of homosexuality be any different?

And as far as the NT, is it not conceivable that, because the oldest available scriptures we have in the original languages are but copies of copies of copies, maybe someone slipped something in about homosexuality that maybe Jesus or one of his disciples didn't actually say? 

I doubt we're actually going to convince each other, however. But we can at least try to state our respective rationales as to why we believe what we believe. As a homosexual myself, I cannot fathom why people really thik the Bible meant to damn homosexuality. My reason for stating about "choice" was that, if homosexuality really and truly is a sin, there would be something in the Bible that explains not just WHAT is wrong (homosexuality itself), but WHY it is wrong.

Edited March 26, 2018 by JamesHackerMP

[TTM]

6 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

You've been ignoring what I have said plenty. I asked you for verses that say homosexuality is wrong, and that it's a sin we bring on ourselves. If I have missed your actual point, then please clarify it for me. Sorry I'm so incredibly dogdy. (Geeze.....)

Your original post said that the Adam & Eve story is more than about procreation. True. But it does not, in and of itself, really say anything damning about homosexuality. In fact, it doesn't mention it at all. I've got the book right in front of me, I've read both creation stories (Gen 1, Gen 2.)

There's quite a lot in the rest of the Pentateuch (or Torah, if you like) about sexual rules. However, the Torah becomes less relevant for Christians as St. Paul began to convert Gentiles to Christianity in the first century. Jesus was a Jew, yes but in the gospels, he is already jettisoning some of the old laws. Does it not follow that at least some of the old laws had become obselete, at least in the context of the New Testament?

It puzzles me why some Christians, especially of the more conservative bent, rely so heavily on the Old Testament. Yes, it's part of the canon, but in the context of Christianity, it isn't as important when you get right down to it. If it is still important, it needs to be taken in its context, because no modern Christian I am familiar with follows all the old Jewish laws in the OT. Why should the matter of homosexuality be any different?

And as far as the NT, is it not conceivable that, because the oldest available scriptures we have in the original languages are but copies of copies of copies, maybe someone slipped something in about homosexuality that maybe Jesus or one of his disciples didn't actually say? 

I doubt we're actually going to convince each other, however. But we can at least try to state our respective rationales as to why we believe what we believe. As a homosexual myself, I cannot fathom why people really thik the Bible meant to damn homosexuality. My reason for stating about "choice" was that, if homosexuality really and truly is a sin, there would be something in the Bible that explains not just WHAT is wrong (homosexuality itself), but WHY it is wrong.

The old testament is a la carte.  Homosexuality bad, shellfish good.  'cause.

[JamesHackerMP]

Hmmm. THe OT does seem to take a lot of time telling us where we can stick our weiners....and how. Well, I do not mean to trivialize. But Jesus of course did outright discard stuff from the OT. For example, when he says that under Mosaic law you could present a wife with a bill of divorce. Jesus proceeds to say it's wrong, that anyone marrying a divorced woman has ipso facto comitted adultery.

Edited March 26, 2018 by JamesHackerMP

[JamesHackerMP]

I think maybe the original poster doesn't want to discuss this any further?

[taxme]

On 3/2/2018 at 8:05 AM, betsy said:

This is the thread to discuss whether homosexuality indeed, is not acceptable to God, or if it is.   One of our posters is very much into this discussion, so I think it best to have a separate thread for it.  I had looked up some arguments being made for homosexuality - that basically says, "it's all a misunderstanding,  something was wrong with the translation and context." 

I would like to tackle some arguments from GayChurch.org.

 

In the Creation Narrative of Adam and Eve,

 

https://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/the-bible-christianity-and-homosexuality/

 

Adam and Eve narrative is not merely given as a procreation story.  It goes well beyond the physical union of a man and a woman. 

 

Genesis 2

²² And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

²³ And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

²⁴ Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

²⁵ And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

Why do you have to leave your parents if it's just to procreate?  It's a whole lot more than just that.

 

Adam and Eve narrative,  is given as the history of  the institution of marriage (the union between a man and a woman ), and family.   

 

To become one flesh - meaning to be one spiritually, emotionally, financially, intellectually. 

 

https://www.gotquestions.org/one-flesh-marriage.html

 

 

 

To be continued....

When I see two guys kissing each other on TV,  I can just puke. It is so unnatural.  Btw, why is it that on some TV shows or on some commercials they always show two white guys kissing or in bed together? They never show two non-white guys doing the same? Why is that? Personally, I think that this is just another attack on the white heterosexual family and Hollywood promotes it. It's like they want to give the impression that only white people can or are gay and that it is good for white people to be gay. Try it sometime, whitey. Disgusting. 

[JamesHackerMP]

Are you saying that with a great deal of levity, taxme, or are you that seriously homophobic?

And I take it Betsy that you don't feel like hearing what you don't want to hear?

Edited March 28, 2018 by JamesHackerMP

[betsy]

18 hours ago, JamesHackerMP said:

 

And I take it Betsy that you don't feel like hearing what you don't want to hear?

 

Let me put it this way:  I don't want to waste my time listening to incessant bull. 

You're asking where it says homosexuality is wrong.  I'd given verses in the Old and New Testament.  No matter how many ways you re-invent your question - the answer wouldn't change!

I've also connected the dots, showing the consistency why God says it's wrong, with other verses. If you can't grasp them - what more can I say?

 

I take it, you're more in a state of denial.  You think, what you don't acknowledge.........surely, can't be there.  You're free to be in that state.

 

Bye.

Edited March 28, 2018 by betsy

[Guest]

The issue is just that it's not up to some fictitious supernatural being, or a human invented and written book about same, to decide on whether or not certain human behaviour is wrong.  It's up to other humans.  And as we get more and more enlightened, more and more of us are realising that humans are more complex than we thought, and homosexuality is just another facet of our existence.

A God and/or a book just don't enter into it, except of course, unless an individual wants to use such as a guide for their own, and only their own, behaviour.