Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, Rue said:

I do. I am not arguing Jerusalem is unilaterally only Israel's. I am saying it should ideally be a capital to two peaceful states.

I am saying that will never happen as long as Palestinian leaders/terrorists and the Arab League refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. 

Realistically, it will never happen until Jews can trust the Arabs not to abuse them. And that will take generations of peace. So... never.

 

[GostHacked]

21 hours ago, herples said:

It makes a hard situation more difficult by basically saying they have no intention of hearing the other side in negotiations. 

This is what it comes down to, neither side wants a two state solution.

[Rue]

14 hours ago, Argus said:

Realistically, it will never happen until Jews can trust the Arabs not to abuse them. And that will take generations of peace. So... never.

 

At this present time no. The riots you see are not simply about choice of capital, its the very idea of a Jewish state. The collective psyche of the Arab world has not budged an inch since it lost its war of 1948. Its fixated still on winning back what it thinks are Jews violating sharia law and the place of a kafir-dhimmi-infidel Jew in the world of Islam, i.e., not allowed to own land, have equivalent legal rights to Muslims, a state, etc.

Then again people thought the IRA would never disarm or give up on taking back Northern Ireland. 

Unfortnately the Muslim concept of dhimmitude is over 3,000 years old and still being taught.

Now in Israel the only thing I can tell you is the majority of Jews are non religious-they don't practice Judaism in an entrenched or even organized manner. The actual percentage who are orthodox  and you'd expect to be extremist are a minority and of course of those orthodox, half those orthodox don't even consider themselves part of Israel. The others are where the entrenched extremists come from but they remain a minority of Jews in not just Israel's 6.5 million people  but in the total of 14.5  million Jews of the entire world.

But hey Ghost thinks he knows the entire Israeli psyche. I mean he found  a you tube tape of a fat boy saying Jews should not marry Muslims. There you go. From that he knows Netanyahu and Israel are collectively evil. I mean who am I to argue with such brilliant extrapolation.

The problem is though mainstream belief in a sharia law system that defines any non Muslim as a dhimmi remains MAINSTREAM in the Arab world. Its not just a minor segment of the population. Its a tough egg to crack. Mostly the progressive Muslims who have moved on from literal and fundamentalist Muslim beliefs have to leave Muslim countries and they fear speaking out.

We do have some who speak out loudly in Canada for progressive Muslim beliefs. Ironically they would be the first to find people like MarcusKactusHudsonJonesGhost the problem not you or me. They would agree with you on Muslim extremism. They came here to get away from it. I know some of them very well. Like me they don't like trendy leftists who pretend to understand our ideas and ethnicity. They don't get us as you do. They don't get it. They don't get we want no favours, no special treatment, nothing other than the same things you do, living in a world where there is no bull shit two  faced feigned liberal tolerance which selects out the political flavour of the day to shed a tear on.

I know Muslims in the IDF. I know Beduins. I know Druze, I know Christians. I know Bahaiis. I know them as Israelis. I know some of them as Palestinians or Lebanese, Syria, Iraqi, Jordanian, Egyptian. They like me and you have no time of day for the excrement you see written on this board.

Worst thing I have had to do in life is learn my equality to my Muslim and Christian friends by learning we all blow up the same way and smell the same way when we rot, but so be it. It was a basic lesson. It makes the bullshit I read on this board fun.

I love it when people like Marcus run and put people on denial or like Omni pull this bullshit that they had a relative who was a "Jew" so they are not "anti-semitic" and presto because of that relationship to a "Jew" everything they say becomes magically credible. Lol. They play the Joo card, the MUZlim card, whatever card they can to avoid having to defend their stupidity and hide behind their self proclaimed ethnic titles. What a fucking joke to come on this board and say, hey my opinion is valid because my father WAS a Jew. Look out you think Omni inherited any of his Jooishness? Does Omni have hypochondria, a large nose, does he produce movies in Hollywood or is he a doctor, dentist or stand up comedian. My guess is he works in plumbing at Home Depot with the other gentiles and Punjabis. (look at that wasn't politically proper)

Listen I don't like Trump for many reasons like  you. However the Jerusalem issue is in the entire scheme of the conflict in the Middle East and the world insignificant and I think continuing to placate the Arab collective denial of the existence of Israel is stupid. So if its Jerusalem to kick start a new round of talks so be it. The problem is Trump has done so many bad or stupid things, if he does things that might make sense, people have given up on him now. People knee jerk react to anything he does now forgetting his office is far bigger than just his ego and fat head. 

The no.1 danger to the world right now I think is North Korea, then Iran, then China. Take your pick and as much as I hate Trump and think he's a nut, I think the people who advise him militarily can control him and unlike Obama at least get Iran and North Korea and the b.s. going down with Erdogan, Abbas et al.

I am afraid you are right Argus. Any peace if it ever comes about is long after we are dead and that's provided that stupid fat boy in Pyong Pen or the Muslim extremists running Iran and being financed by them or Saudi Arabia don't blow us up first.

This much I can guarantee you. No Jew is going to blow you up.  If nothing else we need you as patients or clients or to laugh at our jokes or put in our porno movies. (that was a joke)

Edited December 16, 2017 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

Listen I don't like Trump for many reasons like  you. However the Jerusalem issue is in the entire scheme of the conflict in the Middle East and the world insignificant.

Forgive me for not knowing your view on this.  Even if one concurs with the level of significance of the event, of moving the capital and being recognized, do you think that the even is useful to the cause of (eventual) peace ?  I don't, if only because one side is inflamed by it.  It reinforces the conditions that hold up the status quo, and that's by mutual design it seems.  If the two sides could cooperate as much to move forward as they do to maintain the situation this would be over quickly.

[OftenWrong]

I think the situation has been like a "stalemate" for a long time, and not improving. You either agree that the status quo is acceptable, or something needs to change. As such a change in approach is probably worth trying at this point, even though it may (will) cause unrest. All that does is expose the unrest that is already there all the time.

But this "change" is really nothing. Result- just moving an embassy. It is more symbolic than anything else. Real change that leads to better security has to reach down to the cultural level. Given that hatred of the Jew is being taught by Muslim leaders, and this teaching goes back to the very origin of Islam, it will not happen in a cooperative way.

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

As such a change in approach is probably worth trying at this point

This is an empty and obvious statement.  

 

27 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

But this "change" is really nothing.

Completely wrong, given the reaction.  If you have any insights, please provide them.  

"We need to change something" isn't an insight.

[OftenWrong]

40 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

This is an empty and obvious statement.  

 

Completely wrong, given the reaction.  If you have any insights, please provide them.  

"We need to change something" isn't an insight.

I provided my insights when I said either you accept the status quo or you don't. Anyone can see the situation is not going anywhere, opposition to a solution is now deeply entrenched to the religious level. To capitulate is an offence before God. Even top leaders who had the courage to work towards  cooperative solution were assassinated.

The fact that the US now recognises "Jerusalem" as the capital (not even clear if they mean east, west, or just the whole thing) does not significantly change things on the ground but is more symbolic than anything else. As such, it is not very helpful, has no immediate impact other than causing unrest. But as I stated, the unrest is already there, seething, waiting for a reason to be exposed. So as a leader I would not be terribly afraid of that, it is the very thing that needs to be eliminated. Trumps attitude is likely that if a people cannot get along voluntarily, the situation will be handled by force. That is in contrast to Obama's style of conciliation and keeping things the same. So if you accept the status quo you accept a level of hostility that remains indefinitely. The other approach is change things rapidly, causing much greater distress short term, but possibly bringing peace long-term. This has been America's approach in the past, peace under a gun barrel, and is the typical approach of empires for better or worse.

Any reasonable person must concede, the problem is complex, mired in history and not "solvable" by normal, cooperative means.
It's all too easy to pick on me for expressing my views. What are your insights? Do you have a useful suggestion?

Edited December 16, 2017 by OftenWrong
sp.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Trumps attitude is likely that if a people cannot get along voluntarily, the situation will be handled by force. That is in contrast to Obama's style of conciliation and keeping things the same.

"Obama's style"... isn't true.  Obama, Bush, Clinton... followed a similar approach. Trump's approach is more correctly identified as an attitude.  He doesn't appreciate complexity, clearly, and is button mashing.  

 

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

What are your insights? Do you have a useful suggestion?

No.  My approach is to listen to all sides, and absorb the comments that offer new insights.  People more familiar with it tend to have better ideas than North Americans, IMO.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The US  is supposed to be an honest broker here, a ref between the two sides. This concession is like the ref giving one side a penalty shot for no reason whatsoever. In soccer, you'd assume the ref was on the take if this happened. I can see no good reason beyond internal US politics for this move. Even the Saudis couldn't support it. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 2017-12-14 at 8:38 PM, Argus said:

Hamas is not much difference. Palestinians celebrate when their sons die in suicide attacks against Israelis. They put posters up on the walls and dance and sing, and the Palestinian Authority pays their families a pension because their son died 'a hero'.

 

 

All tribes celebrate their warriors. We do. The Israelis do. The Palestinians do. That's human nature. The regime has been a disaster for the people of Gaza but people will support their own. 

I don't hear much talk of Hamas terrorists on our streets. Local and international terrorism deserve separate nouns. Hamas are more like ETA and the IRA In that regard despite US attempts to equate them with ISIS and AQ. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Rue said:

At this present time no. The riots you see are not simply about choice of capital, its the very idea of a Jewish state. The collective psyche of the Arab world has not budged an inch since it lost its war of 1948. Its fixated still on winning back what it thinks are Jews violating sharia law and the place of a kafir-dhimmi-infidel Jew in the world of Islam, i.e., not allowed to own land, have equivalent legal rights to Muslims, a state, etc.

And as part of the concept there is the belief that once a land is ruled by Islam it becomes the part of the lands of Islam, and it is therefore an affront to God for it to ever be ruled by anyone else. I don't think the Muslim world would be a lot happier of present day Israel was ruled by a Christian government. REmember that Muslim fundamentalist still call for the 'liberation' of Spain, which they call Al-Andalus.

4 hours ago, Rue said:

Now in Israel the only thing I can tell you is the majority of Jews are non religious-they don't practice Judaism in an entrenched or even organized manner. The actual percentage who are orthodox  and you'd expect to be extremist are a minority and of course of those orthodox, half those orthodox don't even consider themselves part of Israel. The others are where the entrenched extremists come from but they remain a minority of Jews in not just Israel's 6.5 million people  but in the total of 14.5  million Jews of the entire world.

Unfortunately they wield an enormously outsized degree of power in Israel.

4 hours ago, Rue said:

The problem is though mainstream belief in a sharia law system that defines any non Muslim as a dhimmi remains MAINSTREAM in the Arab world. Its not just a minor segment of the population.

Which is why I oppose most Muslim immigration. Not because I think they're going to blow anything up, but because of the widely held adherence to intolerant and chauvinistic beliefs towards non-Muslims, and their backward (and violent) beliefs in social morality laws  which seems to be integrated so deeply into their religion.

 

[Argus]

19 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

All tribes celebrate their warriors. We do. The Israelis do. The Palestinians do. That's human nature. The regime has been a disaster for the people of Gaza but people will support their own. 

Suicide bombers aren't warriors. Attacks, deliberate, pre-mediated attacks on non-combatants are not celebrated by any healthy society.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Suicide bombers aren't warriors. Attacks, deliberate, pre-mediated attacks on non-combatants are not celebrated by any healthy society.

I don't agree with suicide bombing - it's not only a moral mistake but a strategic one as non-violent resistance would be a far more effective tool for the Palestinians - but that's not really my call to make. In such conflicts, tribes tend to do what they can. Against overwhelming force, the options are limited. The West is hypocritical too. The whole concept of collateral damage is a very convenient and elastic one which allows the US to kill as many civilians as it likes and pretend it's all good and ethical. How many Hollywood movies have been made in recent years about the thousands of Japanese children burnt, choked and crushed in Nagasaki, Tokyo and Hiroshima? When was the last close-up of kids with skin hanging off? The civilian casualties were definitely part of the point the US was making there. They were intended. Collateral damage my eye. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

My approach is to listen to all sides, and absorb the comments that offer new insights.

Well that is my point in the first place, new insights are needed. IE there needs to be a better solution.

Quote

  People more familiar with it tend to have better ideas than North Americans, IMO.

Fine, if you're going to pick on everything I say which is my opinion, you deserve likewise. People more familiar with it are unable to put forward any better ideas. In this particular case, the failure is actually because they are familiar with it IE if they live there, they're not going to find reconciliation without outside intervention.

And thanks to modern forms of media, we North Americans are now more familiar with it, possibly than ever before. Certainly those who are locked in this conflict would do well to follow western advice... but at this stage they cannot. In my opinion..

[SpankyMcFarland]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Well that is my point in the first place, new insights are needed. IE there needs to be a better solution.

Fine, if you're going to pick on everything I say which is my opinion, you deserve likewise. People more familiar with it are unable to put forward any better ideas. In this particular case, the failure is actually because they are familiar with it IE if they live there, they're not going to find reconciliation without outside intervention.

And thanks to modern forms of media, we North Americans are now more familiar with it, possibly than ever before. Certainly those who are locked in this conflict would do well to follow western advice... but at this stage they cannot. In my opinion..

One problem is that the Israelis are not waiting for the Palestinians to see the light. In the next few years, they will end the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank forever. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

One problem is that the Israelis are not waiting for the Palestinians to see the light. In the next few years, they will end the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank forever. 

 

Why is that a problem ?   The Palestinians are their own worst enemy...always have been.

[OftenWrong]

14 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

One problem is that the Israelis are not waiting for the Palestinians to see the light. In the next few years, they will end the possibility of a viable Palestinian state forever. 

I think all solutions offered are going to be unsatisfactory to some extent, by multiple parties. This conflict likely goes beyond the immediate issues of Israeli vs. Palestinian autonomy, control or what have you this is part of a power struggle for dominance of the middle east. In other words, this conflict serves a higher purpose.

ETA: Putin has already made his move on Jerusalem. Trump/ America is responding.

Link

Edited December 16, 2017 by OftenWrong

[bush_cheney2004]

23 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

ETA: Putin has already made his move on Jerusalem. Trump/ America is responding.

Link

 

True...Russia recognized West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel before Trump ever became U.S. president, but there was no media conniption fit over it compared to now.

[Argus]

38 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

One problem is that the Israelis are not waiting for the Palestinians to see the light. In the next few years, they will end the possibility of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank forever. 

There is no hope of such a state now. Given the size of the territory, and the scant resources, and the number of Palestinians there and who will return from the 'refugee camps' in neighboring countries, the place will make Yemen seem like a paradise of wealth and moderation. It would almost immediately become either a failed stare or a poverty stricken country ruled by an iron fisted dictator.

[SpankyMcFarland]

46 minutes ago, Argus said:

There is no hope of such a state now. Given the size of the territory, and the scant resources, and the number of Palestinians there and who will return from the 'refugee camps' in neighboring countries, the place will make Yemen seem like a paradise of wealth and moderation. It would almost immediately become either a failed stare or a poverty stricken country ruled by an iron fisted dictator.

The 1.1 state solution leaves enclaves whose inhabitants will never have a vote in elections that determine their lives. Israel will get what it wants but generally does not admit it wants - land with little or no Arabs to deal with. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True...Russia recognized West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel before Trump ever became U.S. president, but there was no media conniption fit over it compared to now.

Two things. West Jerusalem is a different ball of wax from Jerusalem. Secondly, Russia and Israel have a complex relationship. For example, Israel has not followed the US line on Ukraine:

http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/asia/11-12-2017/139362-israel_crimea-0/

http://m.jpost.com/Features/Front-Lines/Can-Israel-be-neutral-on-Ukraine-349814

See the last line here:

http://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/Honoring-of-antisemites-a-problem-says-Israels-ambassador-to-Ukraine-507995

There's been 'no media conniption fit' over this divide between close allies for some reason, although with Trump in charge Lord knows what US policy is now. The Iranians should be worried about their Russian friends. 

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

There's been 'no media conniption fit' over this divide between close allies for some reason, although with Trump in charge Lord knows what US policy is now. The Iranians should be worried about their Russian friends.

 

Trump has only continued U.S. policy, and reinforced a longstanding commitment to Israel.

Israel's capital was recognized as a matter of U.S. federal law over 20 years ago.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump has only continued U.S. policy, and reinforced a longstanding commitment to Israel.

Israel's capital was recognized as a matter of U.S. federal law over 20 years ago.

My reference to Trump was on his Russian policy. What about my Ukraine quotes? I have heard nothing from the US on Israel's stance there. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

What about my Ukraine quotes, though? I have heard nothing from the US on Israel's stance there. 

 

Different issue with no long history.  The U.S. recognizes that Israel will pursue favourable policies for its own interests.

Frankly, better relations with Putin/Russia is more important than with the Ukraine.

Edited December 16, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[SpankyMcFarland]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Different issue with no long history.  The U.S. recognizes that Israel will pursue favourable policies for its own interests.

Frankly, better relations with Putin/Russia is more important than with the Ukraine.

So what should US policy be on Ukraine? Pro-Russian? Neutral?