NAFTA negotiations.

[Zeitgeist]

It’s in Canada’s long term interests to improve relations and trade with non-US countries, even if the adjustments are difficult.  The US increasingly represents nothing more than an export market.  There will be new and bigger markets.  The current US administration doesn’t seem to stand for much apart from taking things at the expense of other countries.  

[paxamericana]

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s in Canada’s long term interests to improve relations and trade with non-US countries, even if the adjustments are difficult.  The US increasingly represents nothing more than an export market.  There will be new and bigger markets.  The current US administration doesn’t seem to stand for much apart from taking things at the expense of other countries.  

HA! As if Canada will find a larger market with the least amount of tariff than the US. All the other countries you'd be trading with have tariff higher than what we offer, which is free trade. It's okay to be upset at the US but big bro just got to whip everyone into shape every now and then. Try not to take it too personally Canada. You'll come back begging for free trade soon enough. 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

Trade policy requires much more consideration and nuance than a tweet.  We’ll continue to have representatives at the bargaining table with the US knowing full well that the US is looking for a zero sum, lopsided deal in their favour.  Either they will come to a sense of fairness eventually or we’ll wait until the bullies are replaced by more fair-minded people.  No matter what Trudeau says or any Canadian PM would say right now, the current US administration wants to humiliate and mistreat us, so let’s focus our energy on building new markets and becoming more self sufficient.  The “shining city on a hill” has lost its lustre, for now at least. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

... No matter what Trudeau says or any Canadian PM would say right now, the current US administration wants to humiliate and mistreat us, so let’s focus our energy on building new markets and becoming more self sufficient.

 

This is something that should have happened a long time ago.   If it forces Canada to do so, then Trump has been a great motivator.  

Stop being so dependent on the U.S. market/economy.

[paxamericana]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Either they will come to a sense of fairness eventually or we’ll wait until the bullies are replaced by more fair-minded people.

Or you can take the free trade deal now and save all that wait time and pain. Sounds like Canada much prefer pride over prudence as Trudeau has demonstrated. Big bro was only trying to be fair. 

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

so let’s focus our energy on building new markets and becoming more self sufficient.

Canada is not going to do that by having protectionist trade. If you want to build new market then adopt free trade. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by paxamericana

[bush_cheney2004]

Now Canada is worried that Team Trump will cut a deal with Mexico, leaving Canada on the outside looking in.

My how the worm has turned.....Canada thought it was in the NAFTA driver's seat to help protect Mexico....NOT !

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-seeks-united-front-with-mexico-in-nafta-talks/

 

[paxamericana]

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Now Canada is worried that Team Trump will cut a deal with Mexico, leaving Canada on the outside looking in.

My how the worm has turned.....Canada thought it was in the NAFTA driver's seat to help protect Mexico....NOT !

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-seeks-united-front-with-mexico-in-nafta-talks/

 

Trump on Monday said that he’s in discussions with incoming Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador about doing something “very dramatic, very positive for both countries,” without giving more details. Mexico’s peso extended gains after Trump’s remarks, rising 0.7 percent to 18.8951 per dollar at 4:48 p.m. in New York.

Lopez Obrador is “a terrific person,” Trump said at a Made in America event at the White House, adding he spoke to the Mexican president-elect “at length on a call.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-23/mexico-said-to-push-for-nafta-deal-with-trump-by-end-of-august?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business

 

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexican President-elect Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador sent U.S. President Donald Trump a letter urging a swift end to NAFTA negotiations and suggesting the leaders could work well together due to their shared anti-establishment style, Mexican officials said on Sunday.

Mexico's president-elect Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador gestures during a news conference in Mexico City, Mexico July 22, 2018. REUTERS/Ginnette Riquelme
The letter was delivered during a recent meeting in Mexico with senior U.S. officials, and details were disclosed once Trump had received it, said Lopez Obrador, a leftist who won Mexico’s July 1 presidential election in a landslide.

Marcelo Ebrard, the president-elect’s proposed foreign minister, read a copy of the letter at a news conference with Lopez Obrador that said the incoming administration’s aim was to “start a new chapter in the relationship between Mexico and the United States, based on mutual respect.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta-mexico/mexican-leftist-appeals-to-anti-establishment-trump-seeks-nafta-deal-idUSKBN1KC0WZ

Edited July 25, 2018 by paxamericana

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, paxamericana said:

...Lopez Obrador is “a terrific person,” Trump said at a Made in America event at the White House, adding he spoke to the Mexican president-elect “at length on a call.”

 

I think Mexico understands America better than Canada, with no "post WW2 order" delusions or feminist agenda from Mexico's leadership.

Mexican human capital (and land) has been far more important to the USA than Canadian.

[Zeitgeist]

Ha ha, that's all complete bullshit.  Trump said similar things about Trudeau early on.  The biggest sticking point in NAFTA negotiations has been low wages in Mexico.  Trade between Canada and the U.S. is very balanced, in fact the U.S. has a trade surplus with Canada.  Stop repeating the same lies over and over as though saying something enough times makes it reality.  You should do it though, really, pretend that building a car in Mexico is more expensive than in Canada and gives the U.S. a competitive advantage over Mexico.  After all, we all know about Mexico’s large middle class and strong rule of law.  No dangers there. Now you just sound ridiculous.  And why would the U.S. have any interest in one of the largest oil reserves in the world, in Canada?  

Edited July 25, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

Yes but why then did Trudeau use retaliatory tariff. Look at the EU's approach, they chose to de-escalate, making it a win win . Canada just want supply management. 

 

[GostHacked]

14 hours ago, paxamericana said:

HA! As if Canada will find a larger market with the least amount of tariff than the US.

At the current rate the US is raising the tariffs, that won't be hard.

[GostHacked]

17 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Yes but why then did Trudeau use retaliatory tariff. Look at the EU's approach, they chose to de-escalate, making it a win win . Canada just want supply management. 

 

Because the EU are pussies. Raising the tariffs after the USA did it, was the best thing I had seen from this failure of a pretty boy PM.

Slap someone, and don't complain when someone slaps you back.

[paxamericana]

7 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Because the EU are pussies. Raising the tariffs after the USA did it, was the best thing I had seen from this failure of a pretty boy PM.

Slap someone, and don't complain when someone slaps you back.

Oh its totally up to Canada if it wants to tax their own people and raise cost while destroying their economy, We're definitely not here to prevent Canadian Economic suicide. In-fact the opposite could be argued. We're just wondering whether or not Canada understands what it has committed to.  Wondering why Trudeau didn't take Trump's trade deal at the G7 summit, why didn't they just become "pussies" like the EU. There were so many different paths other than economic sepuku. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by paxamericana

[GostHacked]

4 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Oh its totally up to Canada if it wants to tax their own people and raise cost while destroying their economy, We're definitely not here to prevent Canadian Economic suicide. In-fact the opposite could be argued. We're just wondering whether or not Canada understands what it has committed to.  Wondering why Trudeau didn't take Trump's trade deal at the G7 summit, why didn't they just become "pussies" like the EU. There were so many different paths other than economic sepuku. 

There are other paths to take. And Trump seems to be taking all the wrong ones. Damn he is an awesome train wreck to watch. I absolutely love it.

Tariffs are not a tax. But, you can flip that too and say why would Trump want to destroy the US economy by imposing this tax on it's own citizens? But, yeah that seems to be lost on Trump supporters too. 

I really need a good laugh after a day like today. And on that note, I gotta go, popcorn is ready,  heading over to Trump's twitter feed. 

[paxamericana]

11 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

 

Tariffs are not a tax. But, you can flip that too and say why would Trump want to destroy the US economy by imposing this tax on it's own citizens? But, yeah that seems to be lost on Trump supporters too. 

I consider the US tariffs investment, because for a nickel that I have to pay as part of my GDP, I can get Canada and the rest of the world to lower their trade barriers while also potentially watching them commit economic Sepuku as Canada and china has done. Sounds like a pretty good show either way. Not much to loose but everything to gain. Yes keep underestimating Trump supporter, that's how 2016 happened. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

So that's current U.S. strategy: Take as much as you can get away with.  It's got nothing to do with fairness.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

25 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ha ha, that's all complete bullshit.  Trump said similar things about Trudeau early on.  The biggest sticking point in NAFTA negotiations has been low wages in Mexico.  Trade between Canada and the U.S. is very balanced, in fact the U.S. has a trade surplus with Canada.  Stop repeating the same lies over and over as though saying something enough times makes it reality.  You should do it though, really, pretend that building a car in Mexico more expensive than in Canada and gives the U.S. a competitive advantage over Mexico.  Now you just sound ridiculous.

Look at it this way, Canada's entire GDP is slightly smaller than the state of Texas. Mexico is even smaller than that by over 30 percent. What ever Trade deal that we may or may not work out is of little consequence for the US. Conversely, if Canada doesn't sort out a trade deal with the US then most of those liberal policies that Canada pride itself on like healthcare and other social welfare programs would no longer be affordable. Seems like a lot more is at stake for Canada than Canadian pride is willing to admit.

The US has been plenty clear on trade discussion, we want to see a free trade agreement with no protectionist loophole. Why keep that supply chain management when free market is a better solution. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

I don't deny that Trump is trying to bully smaller countries and economies.  My point is that the very fact that this is happening for the world to see puts the U.S. at a long-term disadvantage, because countries will no longer trust the U.S..  As mentioned prior, I didn't make my usual trip to Florida this summer and our family is considering selling our place down there.  We liked visiting, but there are many other great places to visit.  That's why I'm in Europe right now.  Don't underestimate how far Trump's mistreatment has gone in damaging relationships.  He'll say his relationships are fantastic and his followers will believe him, but Canadians have endured worse hardships than the one Trump is trying to impose on trading partners now.  The U.S. will need allies as its importance on the world stage is diminishing.  Trump is alienating allies. 

Using tariffs to bully countries into accepting trade deals that give the U.S. an unfair trade advantage won't work.  He is trying to divide countries against each other for fear of missing out on a bilateral deal with the U.S.  Out of desperation, some countries may do bad deals, but the trade and money will eventually flow elsewhere because there are other markets than the U.S..  I'm in Belgium eating apples from Chile and oranges from Spain.  I wonder how sales of Harley Davidson are going in Europe right now?  Canada's mistake was trusting the U.S. because we thought  we could.  The worst thing countries can do is flatter drunk uncle and pretend that his inappropriate behavior is fine, because he'll just keep acting up.  I think Macron learned this.  Trudeau never publicly insulted Trump.  His message was consistent.  Trump badmouthed Trudeau publicly when Trump is the leader most deserving of being corrected.  It's a pattern of blaming others for his own bad behavior.  It's clear by now that he won't listen to criticism.  Instead he'll say something insulting to get a few hi fives from his cronies, like when he calls Rosie O'Donnell "fat and ugly."  It's just mean-spirited and rude.  This is your leader.  How can you not see this?  Or is it that you enjoy seeing how much damage he can get away with?  I think that's part of it.  

Edited July 26, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[paxamericana]

24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

This is your leader.  How can you not see this?  Or is it that you enjoy seeing how much damage he can get away with?  I think that's part of it.  

Yes to all the above but that's beside the point. It is fair to complain about Trump's antic but I think that some of those criticism is over the top. Trump is trying to fix the WTO as was discussed with the EU. He also fixing NATO. He's trying to fix the middle east and NK. We did not elect him to be another sensitive liberal snowflake politician like Obama and Trudeau, we elected him to get things done so he is free to do what he see fit so long as it is within our interest, the voter. We tried your route, look at the amount of problems Obama created, look at the progress Trump has made. If a few liberal tears has to be shed to water the tree of liberty then so be it. The US is done being friendly, two previous administration saw to that.  

[Zeitgeist]

Alienating allies and cozying up to quasi-fascist countries that represent a security threat to the U.S. is progress?  Obama expanded access to health care to 100 million Americans.  Of course according to Trump Obamacare is a disaster.  This is part of the problem.  Americans are so polarized politically.  Bush Jr. really made things harder for the U.S. in the Middle East.  Obama didn't help the situation there.  Trump is leaving Syria to Putin, basically sacrificing Assad's opponents and the hundreds of thousands of migrants fleeing civil war.

[paxamericana]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Alienating allies and cozying up to quasi-fascist countries that represent a security threat to the U.S. is progress? 

Yup, getting NATO deadbeats to pay their fair share, Getting NK to stop testing nukes and launching missles, getting our prisoners back, all for a little meeting with out releasing prisoner and 3 billion dollars. . Isis is about to be annihilated, Iran isn't thinking about grande ambition anymore,  Negotiation are going well on trade. Trying to work with Russia, on issue we have common ground with. Winning in Afghanistan again after disastrous Obama chicken shit policies. Economy is up, all in 18 months, Yeah I'd say that's a lot of progress. First sitting president to accomplish that much.

I mean if all he did was ruffle some feathers that needed ruffling then by all mean ruffle away!

 

You should realize by now that every American political wave will quickly cascade to Canada, you're looking at the next wave of conservatism. Liberalism is out, populism is in. 

 

Also, I'd vote for a magic bean if it could get the results we are getting. 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

Being an "ally" does not mean being a sucker for Canadian tariffs, non tariff barriers, IP theft, illegal overstays, human smuggling, or terrorist attacks from "north of the border".   

Being an "ally" does not mean tolerating NATO deadbeats who still insist on Article 5 protections.

Being an "ally" does not mean rolling over on NAFTA (again) or guaranteeing Canada/Mexico open access to U.S. capital and export market.

Being an "ally" does not mean accepting high tariffs and barriers from the EU and China for American exports.

Being an "ally" does not mean paying for 22% of the UN budget.

Being an "ally" does not mean an obligation to accept 20% of the world's landed immigrants.

Being an "ally" does not mean only electing presidents that Canadians approve of.

 

[Kerfuffle]

34 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Being an "ally" does not mean being a sucker for Canadian tariffs, non tariff barriers, IP theft, illegal overstays, human smuggling, or terrorist attacks from "north of the border".   

Being an "ally" does not mean tolerating NATO deadbeats who still insist on Article 5 protections.

Being an "ally" does not mean rolling over on NAFTA (again) or guaranteeing Canada/Mexico open access to U.S. capital and export market.

Being an "ally" does not mean accepting high tariffs and barriers from the EU and China for American exports.

Being an "ally" does not mean paying for 22% of the UN budget.

Being an "ally" does not mean an obligation to accept 20% of the world's landed immigrants.

Being an "ally" does not mean only electing presidents that Canadians approve of.

 

So much whining so early in the morning....you sound just like President Brain fart with diarrhea of the mouth.....The only thing missing in your post is the constant " Trudeau has been to Washington 16 times" whine.

 

[OftenWrong]

13 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Because the EU are pussies. Raising the tariffs after the USA did it, was the best thing I had seen from this failure of a pretty boy PM.

Slap someone, and don't complain when someone slaps you back.

Meanwhile Europe wins, Trump claiming he will back off on the metal tariffs too. Canada now waiting on the sidelines. empty handed.

Your suggestion of knee-jerk leftist emotional reaction leads to bull-shit.

[taxme]

On 1/31/2018 at 11:45 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canadian oil rigs leaving for the U.S. because it's better for business "down there"....duh !

 

 

I am surprised that all Canadian companies do not leave for the USA. Why stay here in Canada? When new companies want to start up a business they all have to deal with environ"mental"ists and native not on my land Indians all the time on top of the hundreds of government rules and regulations in their trying to create new jobs for Canadians is the hassle really worth it? Most of those enviro screwballs and Indians are no doubt all on some kind of welfare assistance from the Canadian taxpayer or some are retired and are okay and could careless about the creation of new jobs for the unemployed. How can a few get to rule the many is beyond me. But this is Canada, don't you know. At least Trump is cutting red tape to help try and create more jobs. Canada needs to do the same. 

"duh" is right.