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Quebec Accepting Refugees Summer 2017: 150/day


August1991

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150 people/day is about 50,000 per year. (In winter, the numbers may change - rise/fall, I don't know.)

CBC

.According to our federal PM, Justin Trudeau, we can accept all these people. I tend to agree: Canada is a large country. We can manage 50,000 refugees per year.

But my thought/fear is that Justin Trudeau is sending the message to many more/other foreigners: Canada is the place to be.

==== 

Some immigrants arrive in Canada with an understanding of Enlightenment principles. Many young children arrive with no knowledge of Voltaire at all.

Can we manage 100,000 refugees each year? Can we even manage 300,000 new immigrants each year?

Can we educate all these people, bring them into the 18th century? 

Edited by August1991
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On 8/5/2017 at 10:41 AM, AngusThermopyle said:

They're not refugee's. Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that fact?

In all honesty, the word "refugee" has always bothered me. Refuge? Employ? Employee?

=====

In the 19th century, the words "emigrant" or "immigrant" had some sense.

After WWII, there was the term "DP" or "displaced person". The UN adopted the term "refugee" as a PC version of "DP".

In the mid/late 20th century, the confusing words were "tourist" or "visitor" or "traveler". 

Nowadays, in this early 21st century, billions of people can travel everywhere. We are no longer tourists, visitors, immigrants, emigrants, travelers, employees, refugees...

Imagine the mid 21st century, say, around 2050 or so. What will people say? 

Edited by August1991
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On 8/5/2017 at 10:41 AM, AngusThermopyle said:

They're not refugee's. Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that fact?

Uh, Angus, you missed the far more serious point of my second post.

=====

Maybe we should organize life/society for Haitians in Haiti - rather than have Haitians flee Haiti and come here.

The European Left/sophisticated American Left will accuse me of "imperialism/colonialism"; the American Right will say that "America cannot solve foreign problems." 

But maybe, if we organised Haiti - and imposed/taught our laws/customs - Haitians would not flee their country.

Edited by August1991
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5 hours ago, August1991 said:

But maybe, if we organised Haiti - and imposed/taught our laws/customs - Haitians would not flee their country.

Impose?  Do we have that right?  I don't think so.  Of course they'll want our aid - financial aid - but we are expected not to impose!

Why don't we just go there, invade and colonize them?  I don't know if we'll eventually achieve our goal of infusing our ways on them.....but that's much simpler.

 

Furthermore, it's so easy to say we'll teach them our customs/laws.......but that takes generations, and that is if they're ALL even willing and receptive to be like us.   Peoples are fiercely defensive of their own customs, and identity.  Who wouldn't be?    Wasn't Haiti colonized by France?  How long ago was that?  Why isn't it even remotely like France?

Countries are made by its people.  Most, if not all countries that enjoy the kind of life we have, have fought for it - defending it - through wars. 

How would the UK and other European countries be like now had Germany won the war?  Most of Asia, had the Japanese won that war, too?  Go back in history and you'll find all the wars that shaped the nations.

I suppose peoples of countries now, will have to fight for theirs, too.

 

Our leaders should put Canada's best interest - first and foremost.  Globalization will be the end for all.....since only a few rich countries carry the weight for the world.  It cannot last long.

We've got tons of problems here, too.  You have to fix your own house before you go about fixing others'.  It's just a matter of time before everything comes crashing down on our heads by the way our leaders now are going about being reckless with spending, being socialists, and totally self-absorbed with their political ambitions.

  I wonder if our economy will end up like Venezuela?

 

 

Edited by betsy
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5 minutes ago, betsy said:

Wasn't Haiti colonized by France?  How long ago was that?  Why isn't it even remotely like France?

Because it was a giant sugar plantation which in the day meant Europeans lording it over a vast number of slaves. The slaves revolted back in 1790 or thereabouts, during the French revolution. By 1804 the slave revolt successfully drove their (by that time Napoleonic) overlords out. I don't think they were all that thrilled with a French culture that found all sorts of reasons to keep them enslaved. 

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7 minutes ago, Peter F said:

Because it was a giant sugar plantation which in the day meant Europeans lording it over a vast number of slaves. The slaves revolted back in 1790 or thereabouts, during the French revolution. By 1804 the slave revolt successfully drove their (by that time Napoleonic) overlords out. I don't think they were all that thrilled with a French culture that found all sorts of reasons to keep them enslaved. 

Peoples shape their own countries.....whether it turns out to be for the best, or not.   It depends on the kind of colonizers too.  You're at the mercy of the colonizer.  Some colonizers just plundered without giving anything back.

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3 hours ago, Peter F said:

Because it was a giant sugar plantation which in the day meant Europeans lording it over a vast number of slaves. The slaves revolted back in 1790 or thereabouts, during the French revolution. By 1804 the slave revolt successfully drove their (by that time Napoleonic) overlords out. I don't think they were all that thrilled with a French culture that found all sorts of reasons to keep them enslaved. 

So they've been independent for two hundred years now. Great job they've done.

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8 hours ago, August1991 said:

 .....But maybe, if we organised Haiti - and imposed/taught our laws/customs - Haitians would not flee their country.

 

Haitians are no different from many other emigres in that regard, from well "organized" nations or not. 

When the U.S. closes the border, they will go someplace else...like Canada.

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On 8/7/2017 at 8:02 AM, betsy said:

Impose?  Do we have that right?  I don't think so.  Of course they'll want our aid - financial aid - but we are expected not to impose!

Impose? But what do Canadian elementary schoolteachers do to their pupils? I suspect that they "impose" their beliefs; these teachers educate children.

In general, I think Canadian teachers do a good job  (I think that they will do their job differently in the future but that's a topic for a different thread.) 

Betsy, imagine. Calculus is not part of our DNA. A child must learn what is a slope of a function. 

=====

The broader question is this: To bring these kids into the modern world, to teach them Voltaire, calculus:

1. do we teach these kids abroad, where they live

2., bring them into the 18th century, let them learn about Voltaire and Cartesian points only when they're in Canada - America.

======

Betsy: Each day, around the world, about 300,000 children are born. Their DNA contains no instructions of language, calculus or what a red light means.  No child is born with the knowledge that - throwing garbage in the street is bad.

Mothers, fathers, other adults, someone has to teach a child how to be civilised.

Edited by August1991
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11 hours ago, August1991 said:

Impose? But what do Canadian elementary schoolteachers do to their pupils? I suspect that they "impose" their beliefs; these teachers educate children.

 

Well, my response was to your comment that we organize them in Haiti - imposing our laws and customs there in Haiti.

 

When on Canadian soil, there shouldn't be any question about it that we automatically educate them to our laws and customs!  There should be  no compromise on that. 

Any refugee who refuses to accept and embrace the customs and laws of the country - that includes giving allegiance, etc., - that's giving them refuge, isn't a real refugee.

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On 8/8/2017 at 11:46 PM, August1991 said:

Impose? But what do Canadian elementary schoolteachers do to their pupils? I suspect that they "impose" their beliefs; these teachers educate children.

In general, I think Canadian teachers do a good job  (I think that they will do their job differently in the future but that's a topic for a different thread.) 

Betsy, imagine. Calculus is not part of our DNA. A child must learn what is a slope of a function. 

=====

The broader question is this: To bring these kids into the modern world, to teach them Voltaire, calculus:

1. do we teach these kids abroad, where they live

2., bring them into the 18th century, let them learn about Voltaire and Cartesian points only when they're in Canada - America.

======

Betsy: Each day, around the world, about 300,000 children are born. Their DNA contains no instructions of language, calculus or what a red light means.  No child is born with the knowledge that - throwing garbage in the street is bad.

Mothers, fathers, other adults, someone has to teach a child how to be civilised.

 

You keep mentioning Voltaire.....

Uhhh........ when we're talking about Haiti, can you explain why teaching Voltaire, is a necessity?  

 

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On 8/7/2017 at 3:21 AM, August1991 said:

Uh, Angus, you missed the far more serious point of my second post.

=====

Maybe we should organize life/society for Haitians in Haiti - rather than have Haitians flee Haiti and come here.

The European Left/sophisticated American Left will accuse me of "imperialism/colonialism"; the American Right will say that "America cannot solve foreign problems." 

But maybe, if we organised Haiti - and imposed/taught our laws/customs - Haitians would not flee their country.

This is a good point. Why is life so crappy there that they need to risk life coming to Canada?  How much did we really help after the quake and removing a corrupt leader that seemed to have led to more problems.

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4 hours ago, GostHacked said:

This is a good point. Why is life so crappy there that they need to risk life coming to Canada?  How much did we really help after the quake and removing a corrupt leader that seemed to have led to more problems.

Haiti is a basket case, impoverished, uneducated, with almost no infrastructure, and desperately overcrowded. It had three decades of the Duvalier's who robbed it of everything not nailed down, and a number of coups since. It is now rated as one of the most corrupt nations on earth, which means it's very hard to get anything done.

Among aid workers whom Von Tunzelmann has spoken to, Haiti today is "down there with Somalia, as just about the worst [most damaged] society on earth. Even in Afghanistan, there's a middle class. People aren't living in the sewers." As far back as the 1950s, she says, Haiti was considered unsustainably overcrowded with a population of 3 million; that ­figure now stands at 9 million*. Some 80% of that population live below the poverty line. The country is in an advanced state of industrial collapse, with a GDP per capita in 2009 of just $2 a day. Some 66% of Haitians work in ­agriculture, but this is mainly small-scale subsistence farming and accounts for less than a third of GDP. The unemployment rate is 75%. Foreign aid ­accounts for 30%-40% of the government's budget. There are 80 deaths for every 1,000 live births, and the survival rate of newborns is the lowest in the western hemisphere. For many adults, the most promising sources of income are likely to be drug dealing, weapons trading, gang membership, kidnapping and extortion.

This is from 2010. The population is now nearly 11 million.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/14/haiti-history-earthquake-disaster

Edited by Argus
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On 8/7/2017 at 3:21 AM, August1991 said:

Uh, Angus, you missed the far more serious point of my second post.

=====

Maybe we should organize life/society for Haitians in Haiti - rather than have Haitians flee Haiti and come here.

The European Left/sophisticated American Left will accuse me of "imperialism/colonialism"; the American Right will say that "America cannot solve foreign problems." 

But maybe, if we organised Haiti - and imposed/taught our laws/customs - Haitians would not flee their country.

It would be extremely expensive, and it would take many years. I agree it's the right thing to do but you will be hard pressed to get agreement and support from the citizens of western countries for this to take place.

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2 minutes ago, Argus said:

For many adults, the most promising sources of income are likely to be drug dealing, weapons trading, gang membership, kidnapping and extortion.

Not a very promising future for Haitians. Perhaps we should ensure that none of them can leave such a place. Fence it off, so to speak. Make sure no one ever gets out. 

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On 8/7/2017 at 8:02 AM, betsy said:

Impose?  Do we have that right?  I don't think so.  Of course they'll want our aid - financial aid - but we are expected not to impose!

Why don't we just go there, invade and colonize them?  I don't know if we'll eventually achieve our goal of infusing our ways on them.....but that's much simpler.

 

Furthermore, it's so easy to say we'll teach them our customs/laws.......but that takes generations, and that is if they're ALL even willing and receptive to be like us.   Peoples are fiercely defensive of their own customs, and identity.  Who wouldn't be?    Wasn't Haiti colonized by France?  How long ago was that?  Why isn't it even remotely like France?

Countries are made by its people.  Most, if not all countries that enjoy the kind of life we have, have fought for it - defending it - through wars. 

How would the UK and other European countries be like now had Germany won the war?  Most of Asia, had the Japanese won that war, too?  Go back in history and you'll find all the wars that shaped the nations.

I suppose peoples of countries now, will have to fight for theirs, too.

 

Our leaders should put Canada's best interest - first and foremost.  Globalization will be the end for all.....since only a few rich countries carry the weight for the world.  It cannot last long.

We've got tons of problems here, too.  You have to fix your own house before you go about fixing others'.  It's just a matter of time before everything comes crashing down on our heads by the way our leaders now are going about being reckless with spending, being socialists, and totally self-absorbed with their political ambitions.

  I wonder if our economy will end up like Venezuela?

 

 

They are now talking billions over the next 3 yrs to process and a 11 back log on the horizon. What trudeau is doing is treasonous to the welfare of this country. He should resign.

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1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Yes, from all I've read the Somali population in the US  has gained the same sort of reputation for criminality as they have in Canada. The sex trafficking is mentioned of the US ones but Canada does it's best not to discuss such things so we don't know if that is happening here as well.

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10 hours ago, Argus said:

Haiti is a basket case, impoverished, uneducated, with almost no infrastructure, and desperately overcrowded....

Haiti, the society, may be a basket case. But individual Haitians are not.

More than anything, I reckon that this is the discovery of Newton, Smith, Pushkin and Tolstoi.

10 hours ago, Argus said:

 

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6 hours ago, August1991 said:

Betsy, I may be wrong but I favour - even will defend - enlightened views.

I'm all for enlightened views.  I'm just wondering why teaching Voltaire seems to be a necessity for Haiti at this stage.

I'm visualizing an adult course for Voltaire - desperate people (mostly uneducated - a lot of them probably had only a few years in elementary and never reached High School ), and they're trying to learn skills that will lift them up from poverty.  Listening to the teacher spouting off about Voltaire  would have their heads spinning.  Heck, we might see a collective suicide the likes we've never seen before!

I'm talking about being realistic!  Feet on the ground. 

But maybe I'm not seeing a different angle. So I'm asking you to explain.  Why Voltaire?

 

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On 8/7/2017 at 6:02 AM, betsy said:

Why don't we just go there, invade and colonize them?  I don't know if we'll eventually achieve our goal of infusing our ways on them.....but that's much simpler.

You likely are this ignorant of history, Betsy. And I have noticed that the rest of your fellow posters are too.

The US has raped and pillaged Haiti until there ain't no more. The US owes Haiti billions in reparations, just as the US owes myriad other countries billions/trillions in reparation. 

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