Compensating Khadr

Goddess · July 18, 2017

1 hour ago, hot enough said:

Now that is a typical Goddess scholarly response!

When you say something scholarly, I'll respond scholarly.

The_Squid · July 18, 2017

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Omar had many chances to be a good boy. He chose not to be.

He was a child soldier... the very definition of the term. Normally, a western country doesn't detain and torture child soldiers to make them "confess". Canada turned a blind eye to this.... Canada has to pay.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jul/12/omar-khadr-compensation-payout-could-boost-rights-of-child-soldiers

Goddess · July 18, 2017

9 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

He was a child soldier... the very definition of the term. Normally, a western country doesn't detain and torture child soldiers to make them "confess". Canada turned a blind eye to this.... Canada has to pay.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jul/12/omar-khadr-compensation-payout-could-boost-rights-of-child-soldiers

While I disagree with some of your opinions, I do agree that there needs to be some kind of plan for dealing with child soldiers. As your article points out - the numbers being recruited into Islamic extremism are growing. This is going to happen again.

We can't turn them loose.

And we can't keep paying them 10 million every time they get caught.

I do agree that Khadr may not have had much choice is following his father at first....but at some point, a point before he was captured, he became a most willing participant and has not renounced his ties to Al Quaeda or to his wack-job family, to this day.

The_Squid · July 18, 2017

8 minutes ago, Goddess said:

And we can't keep paying them 10 million every time they get caught.

You think we paid Khadr because he was a terrorist? That's rather dumb. We had to pay him because his rights were violated, according to the Supreme Court of Canada. If we play by the rules... rules that we signed onto... then we won't need to pay anyone a cent.

.but at some point, a point before he was captured, he became

You have no idea if this is true. You're making stuff up.

Edited July 18, 2017 by The_Squid

Rue · July 18, 2017

1 hour ago, Hudson Jones said:

You have every right to go into a rant without showing any facts.

Khadr was put into a situation where he had no control. Just like child soldiers you see in Africa.

For a so-called lawyer, it's interesting to see how you try to devalue the law and instead replace it with emotional rants.

And so what? You have? What is your point anyway?

What does this have to do with our commitment to our laws and the charter? Why do you promote breaking our laws?

In regards to this thread, it is in fact you and an entourage of Kadr apologists who rant without facts . Here you are chalenging me for having no facts and in the same breath spew a non factual subjective opinion out as what? You state, and I quote,"Kadr was put in a situation he had no control over...." and was and I quote.. "just like the soldiers you see in Africa".

When were you in Africa? When did you ever see a child soldier in Africa? Where the hell do you get off in one breath telling me I rant without showing facts when in the very next gulp you do the same. In fact that's your m.o. on this board, to pass off high almighty morally righteous subjective rants as if they are gospel.

Next I don't devalue the law, I uphold it which is precisely why I have argued the failure of Trudeau to not ask the Supreme Court to reference public morality and the clean hands docytrine has soiled this country and devalued its laws. You would have this country engage in moral cowardice and lack of morality and pay off a terrorist rather than challenge the amount awarded to him precisely because you have no morals. You equate a terrorist as a victim. My point has been made abundantly clear and its clear to 70% of Canadians. You want to pretend you don't understand it? Lol.

Show me one word out of my posts where I have condoned breaking the law. One word.

As usual you make a false allegation and try misrepresent the argument I have presented which is the exact opposite and calls for a reference to moral values when considering the amount to be awarded. Its clearly a concept your pro terrorist apologist partisan views pretends can't be understood.

You want to complain about lack of facts go ask Omni for the law he claims magically removes the applicability of the clean hands doctrine?

Finish it. Explain to me How two wrongs establish a right. Explain to me with facts how the violation of the Charter magically washes Kadr's hands of its blood. Lecture me. Patronize African child soldiers while you are at it Bwana and sip on your tea as you discuss these misunderstood children to me.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Rue

Goddess · July 18, 2017

6 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

You think we paid Khadr because he was a terrorist? That's rather dumb. We had to pay him because his rights were violated, according to the Supreme Court of Canada. If we play by the rules... rules that we signed onto... then we won't need to pay anyone a cent.

You have no idea if this is true. You're making stuff up.

Yes, I get that Canada didn't do enough to get him out of Gitmo. I get that he's not being paid an inordinate amount of money "for" being a terrorist.

But he IS a terrorist. Who was caught red-handed. Sorry, but I really don't care about the rights of terrorists as much as you do.

And you have no idea if my opinion isn't true. He had many opportunities to quit being a terrorist, to surrender, to not be there in the first place (he didn't want to be left behind with the women). He chose to continue. I still say that at some point prior to being captured, he ceased being a "child" soldier and willingly became a terrorist.

Omni · July 18, 2017

9 minutes ago, Rue said:

When were you in Africa? When did you ever see a child soldier in Africa?

I spent the better part of 10 years working in Africa in various countries including Somalia, Sudan, the DRC, Angola and others and I can confirm to you there are a lot of child soldiers in Africa.

13 minutes ago, Rue said:

I have argued the failure of Trudeau to not ask the Supreme Court to reference public morality and the clean hands

The SC has already spoken on the issue.

15 minutes ago, Rue said:

ou would have this country engage in moral cowardice and lack of morality and pay off a terrorist

We paid off a child soldier who's charter rights were denied.

18 minutes ago, Rue said:

You want to complain about lack of facts go ask Omni for the law he claims magically removes the applicability of the clean hands doctrine?

Show us your "facts" as to how it does apply.

You keep just digging a bigger hole.

Rue · July 18, 2017

48 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

He was a child soldier... the very definition of the term. Normally, a western country doesn't detain and torture child soldiers to make them "confess". Canada turned a blind eye to this.... Canada has to pay.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jul/12/omar-khadr-compensation-payout-could-boost-rights-of-child-soldiers

Actually he doesn't match the very definition of the term and you would know it if instead of you bluffing you read the actual convention definition.

Next you and your Kadr entourages keep mentioning he was tortured. His claim of torture was that a light was left on his room 24 hours a day and he was forced to wash floors.

That's how full of crap he and you are. Torture. How about you spend one day with me and see what burns look like or bruises or other wounds from actual abuse. Yah I know you are an expert on torture. You deal with what Hudson Jones calls facts.

The_Squid · July 18, 2017

3 minutes ago, Rue said:

How about you spend one day with me and see what burns look like or bruises or other wounds from actual abuse.

Torture would be being stuck in a room while have to listen to your verbal diarrhea... Aren't you a lawyer? Would you try and hit me with your loafer? lol Violence indeed... :rolleyes:

Omni · July 18, 2017

13 minutes ago, Rue said:

His claim of torture was that a light was left on his room 24 hours

Nope, he was was moved from location to location every 3 hours. That's how sleep deprivation works as torture.

jacee · July 18, 2017

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

We, as a global community, are most certainly being terrorized by Islamic extremists.

Good grief.

Aren't you being just a wee bit ostrich?

Who the hell is "we"?

We are not being terrorized. That's absolute nonsense.

Rue · July 18, 2017

7 minutes ago, Omni said:

I spent the better part of 10 years working in Africa in various countries including Somalia, Sudan, the DRC, Angola and others and I can confirm to you there are a lot of child soldiers in Africa.

The SC has already spoken on the issue.

We paid off a child soldier who's charter rights were denied.

Show us your "facts" as to how it does apply.

You keep just digging a bigger hole.

In regards to your first comment I have never denied there were child soldiers in Africa so spare me the moral righteous crap Bwana the great white saviour who toured Africa. Spare me Rudyard Kipling.

The Supreme Court of Canada has never spoken on the doctrine of clean hands, public morality and the applicability of s. 1 of the Charter to the Kadr case. You again lie and fabricate and to date have not provided your supposed cases, case, law, etc.

Go on Omni I am still waiting. You think you can weasel your way out by demanding I prove something does not exist? Lol. Right. You claim it exists Omni prove it or stop lying-I have produced the doctrine of clean hands. Nowhere does it state dirty hands are cleaned by the wrong doing of others and you are well aware of this.

WE did not pay off a child soldier,-Trudeau paid off a terrorist who you call a child soldier.

Don't presume to tell me what Trudeau did and who he did it for. He did it for his Liberal cronies who want to get elected again. There's no we. Don't use that Bwana elitist tone with me and presume to tell me what a child soldier is.

Kadr was and remains an unrepentant terrorist.

You are nothing but some presumpotious missionary only now you claim to cleanse the sins of Kadr not with a Bible, but the Charter. How noble of you. How righteous tat must make you feel.

Let me astate this Bwwana had you actually been to Africa you would know the difference between a child soldier and a terrorist.

Yah I know they all look the same to you right Bwana?

Until you produce the law that magically cleans Kadr's hands spare me the righteous missionary shtick.

drummindiver · July 18, 2017

2 minutes ago, Omni said:

Nope, he was was moved from location to location every 3 hours. That's how sleep deprivation works as torture.

Lol....my dogs wake me up every 3 hours and my partner and I have to swap around. While an inconvenience, it is clearly a stretch to call this torture.

Omni · July 18, 2017

Just now, Rue said:

The Supreme Court of Canada has never spoken on the doctrine of clean hands,

They didn't have to, that was resolved by the finding that his rights were violated and he was held illegally.

Omni · July 18, 2017

2 minutes ago, drummindiver said:

Lol....my dogs wake me up every 3 hours and my partner and I have to swap around. While an inconvenience, it is clearly a stretch to call this torture.

Well maybe you should take that up with the UNHRC or the Geneva conventions. Your situation is one of your own making so it's a bit silly to try to conflate it with what happened to a child soldier in an illegal prison.

Hudson Jones · July 18, 2017

49 minutes ago, Rue said:

In regards to this thread, it is in fact you and an entourage of Kadr apologists who rant without facts . Here you are chalenging me for having no facts and in the same breath spew a non factual subjective opinion out as what? You state, and I quote,"Kadr was put in a situation he had no control over...." and was and I quote.. "just like the soldiers you see in Africa".

His family took him abroad. He didn't have control over this. His father did.

Why argue otherwise?

Rue · July 18, 2017

22 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Torture would be being stuck in a room while have to listen to your verbal diarrhea... Aren't you a lawyer? Would you try and hit me with your loafer? lol Violence indeed...

Wow that was a zinger. Listen Squid, I did not come on this board and raise the fact I am a lawyer, insecure people like you do. You want to pose as if you understand a law you didn't read I will challenge you on that. Go read the convention from the UN on torture.

The_Squid · July 18, 2017

1 minute ago, Rue said:

I did not come on this board and raise the fact I am a lawyer

Judging from your grasp of the law, I never believed you were any kind of lawyer. Nice try though...

Goddess · July 18, 2017

7 minutes ago, jacee said:

Who the hell is "we"?

We are not being terrorized. That's absolute nonsense.

Can you read? Or just can't read very well?

I said, "We, as a global community....."

Are you seriously denying that Islamic terrorism is a problem in the world? Is it because you don't know how to read very well?

Rue · July 18, 2017

40 minutes ago, Omni said:

They didn't have to, that was resolved by the finding that his rights were violated and he was held illegally.

You again repeat your lie. If the Supreme Court was given a reference and asked to comment on whether the doctrines of clean hands and public morality should apply to reduce the amount awarded to a nominal amount-they would have to address the issue.

Of course they haven't, they have never been asked to.

Again you engage in a bold faced falsehood and state Charter rights violations pre-empt the doctrine from being applied. The court never said that. The court would never say that. The legal issues that find whether the Charter was violated have nothing to do with the legal issues that determine whether Kadr's hands are dirty as I have shown. The two concepts are not dependent on one another.

No the wrong the government did, can not and did not wash Kadr of what he did. It didn't magically make his grenade disappear, his terrorist activities disappear.

Your contention shows how you lied to me. You claimed the law states the violation of the charter cleanses a dirty man's hands, now you try weasel your way out of your lie saying you can come on this board and infer based on your subjective pronouncement not the law, that Kasr's hands magically become clean once his Charter rights are violated. That is a bald faced lie.

A murderer let out on a technicality and who goes free can not then sue the estate of the person he killed for inheritance. That is a fundamental and basic principle of law in this country and always has been. For you to suggest it is not the case and continue to lie and now get caught red handed with no proof and now having to admit you inferred your claim but you clearly can't prove it with actual legal wording, says it all.

You want to pose as a lawyer and presume to lecture me on the law? Move on with your bold faced misrepresentations.

You want to send Squid or Hot or Eye to belittle my profession be my guest but you lied and you misrepresent the laws of this nation and that is why I defend them. This country has morals. The Charter never extinguished them. The two co-exist. One does not cancel out the other. The Charter is not a tool to enable being a criminal for profit or terrorist for profit. Trudeau has decided to use it that way..

Trudeau chose to refuse to ask the Supreme Court to rule on the applicability of dirty hands as to the amount of the award. The violation of Kadr's charter rights never and does not preclude considering what the amount of his award should be. Most probably had the moral coward Trudeau raised the issue Kadr would have been awarded legal costs but nothing else.

Omni for you to state as you do now the "court did not have to" is not a legal argument or legal fact or legal principle-it is your subjective inference based on your politically partisan bias not the law. You now show you lied. There's no ruling to that effect. There's no wording from a Judge that says that-all we have is you and your inference. Get it clear your inferences are not the law they are your subjective opinions and may I say deeply ignorant ones. The doctrine of clean hands ais not extinguished or magically pre-empted by another party's wrong-doings.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Rue

Rue · July 18, 2017

23 minutes ago, The_Squid said:

Judging from your grasp of the law, I never believed you were any kind of lawyer. Nice try though...

Yah and you and Omni can lecture this board on how Kadr's dirty hands magically become clean once his Charter rights are violated.

Ooh you told me. Lol.

Rue · July 18, 2017

41 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said:

His family took him abroad. He didn't have control over this. His father did.

Why argue otherwise?

Because I have seen children first hand taken by terrorists and indoctrinated at 6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 and make the decision to stop what they are doing.

Because I have seen the courage of children say no to terrorists and I have seen mothers say no to terrorists.

Because I have seen people dying rather than go along with terrorists.

Because I have witnessed the worst in people and have seen in that darkness a light of hope come about of it.

Because I do not and will never allow people like you to make excuses for the moral failure of terrorism.

Because I have seen children walk away from their abusers.

Because if an abused child goes on to be an abuser making excuses for his abuse will only empower him to commit more violence and abuse.

Because I have worked first hand with the abused and no the only way to break the cycle of violence is to never make excuses for it.

Because violence and.or terrorism have no excuses, ever0the moment you excuse-you condone.

Because your reasoning, your excuses has forced men far better than me as well as myself get blood on our hands we can never wash out.

Until you want to join me cleaning toilets do yourself a favour and stop asking questions you don't want answers for.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Rue

The_Squid · July 18, 2017

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

Because I have seen children walk away from their abusers.

what a bunch of nonsense.

Hal 9000 · July 18, 2017

3 hours ago, jacee said:

We're being terrorized?

Good grief.

Aren't you being just a wee bit melodramatic?!

Last time I checked, 6 Muslim Canadians were murdered by a right wing Canadian terrorist:

The suspect is Alexandre Bissonnette, a 27-year-old student at Laval University. Mr. Bissonnette faces six counts of first-degree murder. He was known in the city’s activist circles as a right-wing troll who frequently took anti-foreigner and anti-feminist positions and stood up for U.S. President Donald Trump.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec-city-mosque-shooting-what-we-know-so-far/article33826078/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

Because I've listed to your arguments, I have to believe that Bissonette in not a terrorist, just a solider of some unnamed group. If we look hard enough, we may even find some victim status for him.

Omni · July 18, 2017

34 minutes ago, Rue said:

If the Supreme Court was given a reference and asked to comment on whether the doctrines of clean hands and public morality should apply to reduce the amount awarded to a nominal amount-they would have to address the issue.

No they wouldn't. In order to try and apply your clean hands doctrine, it would have to be shown the plaintiff was not acting in good faith. In this case the plaintiff was suing due the violation of his charter rights, which the SC had already ruled had occurred.