Dutch's election results

[eyeball]

14 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Everybody who doesn't want to submit to the cult of Islam is an Islamophobe.

No I'm not.

[-TSS-]

It gives me great pleasure to think how the Nordic Social Democratic Parties, the traditional governing parties in the Nordic countries, must be watching in horror what happened to the Dutch Social Democratic Party, also a strong party and often the leading party in the Netherlands.

They were absolutely annihilated and reduced to insignificance. In terms of influence and importance they were relegated to the same category as the funny fringe-parties in the Dutch parliament such as the animal rights party or that religious nutjobs party which wants to ban women from the public life and abolish their right to vote.

[marcus]

Majority of the Wilders and LePen's voters are racist and xenophobes who are easily moved by the fear mongering of the non-existing 'take-over' by migrants/Muslims.

The biggest news in the Dutch elections was how well the left, pro-environment parties did, especially the Green party. The Green party ended up taking votes away from the stale fence sitting centre party. The GreenLeft went from 4 seats to 14 seats and they, combined with the other pro-environmental parties will have a big say in the policies pertaining to the environment and immigration.

Most people know what the real threat to the world is. It's not the made-up migrant/Muslim threat. The real threat is climate change and the effects it is having on our planet. 

[Rue]

Holland like many European nations has serious issues with the assimilation of Muslims, Mollucans, Africans. Those issues are real.

The leader the press created as some right wing Donald Trump was never anything other than a fringe politician. The press crated him.

The Dutch never supported him as wide spread as the media tried to claim.

The current Dutch leader has not pretended or denied there are assimilation issues. In fact he had to come clean about them in a very public way and

state he would have to look into defining limitations as to how many people the Netherlands can take in and how much accommodation is possible.

He got elected because he talked directly about those issues and refused to ignore them and paint a pretty picture.

I think trying to falsely stereotype Holland as not caring about such issues because they did not vote for some bigot is absurd.

The bigot they did not vote for was ignorant. He made deliberately ignorant hateful comments. Had he spoken intelligently and not used such words he would have gotten more votes.

The current Dutch leader is a gentleman. He phrases his words carefully and carries himself with dignity but you are making  a mistake thinking he is not concerned about Muslim assimilation issues in Holland or Dutch people are not.

They have issues no different than the rest of Europe. The days of being able to accommodate those Muslims who do not wish to assimilate is coming to conflict. The fact Holland chose a person who will not engage in bigoted statements and hatred to deal with the issue does not mean he is not going to deal with it.

Some people think there is no problem in Europe with Muslims assimilating and if you say there is, its just racism and bigotry stating that. That is not true. Dutch people are famous for their tolerance but poll after poll shows they are very concerned with the future of their country and Muslims in Holland who are not assimilating into its culture.

 

[GostHacked]

On 3/15/2017 at 9:33 PM, DogOnPorch said:

A great victory for Islam over the West.

Congratulations.

It's a European nation, not a Western nation. Geography n such.

[eyeball]

He's commenting on an alternative dimension that exists under his bed.

It's probably LSD and such, not geography.

[marcus]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Some people think there is no problem in Europe with Muslims assimilating and if you say there is...

 

You did somewhat okay in trying to separate different Muslims in your previous statements, but then you finished with the conclusion above. 

There is no "Muslim problem" since majority of Muslims have no problems living and assimilating in Europe like they have been for a long time. There are issues, very minimal issues, with a small minority of people from certain parts of the world, sure. But this is not due to them being Muslim, since an overwhelming majority of Muslims do just fine in living in harmony in Europe.

[DogOnPorch]

39 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

It's a European nation, not a Western nation. Geography n such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

amazing

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

amazing

 

Mind the Homer.

[Cum Laude]

6 hours ago, GostHacked said:

It's a European nation, not a Western nation. Geography n such.

GH, no doubt you’ve read that there’s a sizeable survivalist subset of mega-billionaires that are buying and re-furbishing obsolete missile silos as shelters and hide-outs. Others are buying up land in New Zealand as a modern-day refugia.

Looks like they’ve read the entrails. They know the system they’ve made over the past generation or two is unworkable and unfixable and they’re gettin’ outta Dodge.

Well, they can run but they can’t hide.

To your question, is it better to be forewarned and therefore presumably forearmed? Your guess is as good as mine. You have to make guesses as to the future course of events. Which side of a brand new border do you want to be on, where do you run to, which of the brand-new lordships and their band of bullies will be least-worst? Is it better to go along to get along even if it’s onerous or take a stand and fight and hope for the best?

One way or another, society will re-make itself. For the better? Who knows? What's your opinion?

[-TSS-]

On 18.3.2017 at 7:43 PM, marcus said:

Majority of the Wilders and LePen's voters are racist and xenophobes who are easily moved by the fear mongering of the non-existing 'take-over' by migrants/Muslims.

The biggest news in the Dutch elections was how well the left, pro-environment parties did, especially the Green party. The Green party ended up taking votes away from the stale fence sitting centre party. The GreenLeft went from 4 seats to 14 seats and they, combined with the other pro-environmental parties will have a big say in the policies pertaining to the environment and immigration.

Most people know what the real threat to the world is. It's not the made-up migrant/Muslim threat. The real threat is climate change and the effects it is having on our planet. 

At the expense of the social democrats who fell from 25% to 6% and seatwise from 38 to 9. A total and utter humiliation and annihilation. They were the junior partners in the government the two parties and it seems that while the Liberals also lost popularity and seats but remained the largest party it was the social democrats who took the beating for unpopular policies.

Only because Wilders failed to make such gains as expected it is a false analysis to state that the election was a victory for status quo. Far from it. The protest-votes were scattered more widely than to benefit Wilders alone.

 

[marcus]

9 hours ago, -TSS- said:

At the expense of the social democrats who fell from 25% to 6% and seatwise from 38 to 9. A total and utter humiliation and annihilation. They were the junior partners in the government the two parties and it seems that while the Liberals also lost popularity and seats but remained the largest party it was the social democrats who took the beating for unpopular policies.

Only because Wilders failed to make such gains as expected it is a false analysis to state that the election was a victory for status quo. Far from it. The protest-votes were scattered more widely than to benefit Wilders alone.

I never said or insinuated that this was a victory for the status quo. Personally, I like that the typical stale parties received less votes and lost more power. The PPFD and the  Social Democrats are a lot like the Clinton Democrats in the United States. They're mainstream fence sitters and even though they have held onto power, they've also lost a lot seats. Which gives away to the true leftist parties whose priority is the environment. 

 

[-1=e^ipi]

VVD is actually the party Wilder's used to belong too, and it's also the party of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who is an islamophobe according the the Islamic Human Rights Commission). CDA is a christian conservative party. D66 seems relatively centrist. So it's inaccurate to say that the right lost the dutch election.

 

On the other hand, DENK, the Armenian genocide denying party that wants to ban words like 'integration', 'immigrant' and 'foreigner', use public money to fund imams, and want's to set up a 'racism register', where anyone who doesn't agree with SJWs will be called racist and put on the register, where those on the register will be unable to get a job in the public service, well they got 3 seats.

 

What a strange country.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎03‎-‎18 at 5:09 PM, marcus said:

You did somewhat okay in trying to separate different Muslims in your previous statements, but then you finished with the conclusion above. 

There is no "Muslim problem" since majority of Muslims have no problems living and assimilating in Europe like they have been for a long time. There are issues, very minimal issues, with a small minority of people from certain parts of the world, sure. But this is not due to them being Muslim, since an overwhelming majority of Muslims do just fine in living in harmony in Europe.

No and I was specific at this one but not intended to hate Muslims. I say what I said because this is what Muslim leaders in Europe are saying. The majority of Muslims have problems  Europe according to their leaders. Now before you assume I am accusing Muslims of not wanting to assimilate or are bad people let's clarify. I do not know or claim to know how many Muslims are moderate or not in Europe. I do not know ok? Let's get that clear. I am also not about to smeer all Muslims in Europe as terrorists or extremists. I wil go so far in generalities to say most came to get a better life and get away from Muslim extremism.

However Muslim communities are having problems assimilating especially their youth according to their leaders. Within their communities young Muslims are prone to recruitment to extremist groups. Many Muslims due to lack of language schools have given up looking for work. Many Muslims feeling the brunt of distrust from mainstream European society are turning inwords. So the mainstream Muslim leaders are now speaking out saying, we have assimilation problems. When I say assimilate I mean it in the sense of getting jobs, moving about freely and not dependent on staying within ghettoes and feeling comfortable interacting with non Muslims.

The breakdown is happening. Some if it is language problems,. Some of it is because it takes 2-4 generations for assimilation to occur. Some f it is deliberate religious ideology to resist assimilation. Its complex.

There is a "Muslim" problem. Don't assume I mean it as a negative reflection on Muslims o r I use it the way Hitler did with Jews. I get your concern. Its not how  I meant it. There's a problem with "Turks" in Europe as well. There's a problem with "Romas". There's definitely a problem for ultra-orthodox or visible Jewish people in Europe often triggered by the same bigots who hate Muslims other times by Muslims.. Its not meant to insult anyone when I say that. Its just a fact.

Le Penn, Wilders, that whole lot, you know they are going to exploit the social assimilation adjustment issues. That's what they do. They do what Hitler once did, but not at Hitler's level not yet anyways. Trump's doing it. They pick up on discontent and resentment and they run with it to get votes. Trudeau does it only in reverse to get ethnic votes by pandering to minorities stereotyping them all assuming they need his support. The more visible in clothing a Muslim, the more the problem they will experience on the street no different than any other minority,. Muslims  who choose to remain segregated and demand public places be segregated for only their use, add to this problem. I am not blaming them or anyone I am just stating it as a fact. You close a public swimming pool and only allow Muslim women to swim it breeds resentment.

Marcus I do not believe any ethnic or religious group should demand a public place be used exclusively only for their own group and that includes Jews, Christians, Muslims. I do believe certain Muslim groups demand public swimming pools, etc., be segregated for them and that adds to the problem in Europe. There was a time people said well Jews bring it on themselves in Europe because they dress and speak differently. They've said that about the Roma for centuries. Its a tough issue. If you embrace a culture or ethnicity or religion in a manner that segregates you by your own choosing from the majority of your society, you will bring resentment on yourself. Its one thing to have that segregation forced on you so you have no choice but to turn inwards. Its another when you choose to do it, and in all assimilation issues its a mix of both. What I am saying is I can't expect the majority society if its not Jewish to accommodate my religion by taking their public places and exclusively making them available only to Jewish people. Its not right. Many Muslims are demanding that so they create a back-lash. Now if a woman chooses to cover herself head to toe yes skinheads and even moderate Europeans are going to frown on it. I am not saying its right or wrong but I am saying its a clash of values and a problem.

I also think its unrealistic to pretend the Muslim ghettos within France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, etc., are not real or the religious rituals that intentionally or unintentionally create segregation and difference are not problematic to adjusting to Europeam society. They are.

We have to talk openly about it. Europe has always been elitist. Some call it racist but Portugese when they went into Africa could care less about skin colour when they exploited Angola and Mozambique. European culture is one of a sort of sense of entitlement to colonial resources that no longer exist so they have lots of people from their former colonies who moved to their countries and they created the first tier or layer of assimilation issues often defined as racism but is more complex than just skin colour.

In Europe your accent, your economic status, your family name, where you are born, who you are related to, its all part of it. You have deeply entrenched class systems based on far more than skin colour and you add brown people with Muslim religion to it, it doesn't mix easy. Its already a layered class society even when you are white.

That's what I am trying to say. You have a right to challenge me on any generalization. I admit all generalizations are inaccurate. This one I only meant for discussion purposes not to suggest Muslims are to blame. I mean to discuss adjustment problem without blaming anyone.

I am trying to talk about the problems without negatively blaming Muslims or anyone in Europe.

Me personally I think Wilders is a very hurtful man He has said some very very hateful things. The Dutch PM who was elected is trying to be open and blunt about the assimilation problems without stereotyping all Muslims as extremists but none-the-less he is talking openly about problems. He's not Trudeau. He's polite, but he does not shy away from the adjustment issues.

I now am going to generalize again . I have ben to Holland a few times. Dutch people are pretty tolerant but once you insult them they have enough. They have had for years a social adjustment issue with Mollucans. They will take criticism over being racist up to a point, then they get fed up. Dutch have limits. I spent some time in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Dutch appreciate brains in people. They are a trading country, They trade everything so they are open to about anything. Their attitudes about sex, drugs, culture, art its a lot different than in North America. Things that seem morally outrageous to Canada or the US they wouldn't even notice. These are pretty open minded people.

You take someone who comes from a traditional Muslim ideology and stick them in Holland they will probably find Dutch peoples' views on drugs, sex, art, politics, night and day different. Its not an easy gap to bridge. There's been a lot of tension in Holland over the murder of an artist by a Muslim when the artist was perceived as ridiculing Muhamed.

Holland is about critiquing all religions. Holland has issues it is still resolving about Germany during WW2. It has a very strange and loving relationship with its  Jews and Israel that allows it to be at times critical with Israel like no other European nation can precisely because of its decision to not buckle under with oil boycotts int he late 60's by Arab nations to punish Europe for supporting Israel's existence. Holland can and does criticize Israeli foreign policy but in a way that never questions the right of Israel to exist. It took the holocaust to heart and has a deep connection to how it impacted in Holland.It had its share of anti-Semites and the invasion of Nazi Germany pushed it to question and reject that anti-Semitism as well as fascism and totalitarianism.

Dutch do not like fascism or communism, They like certain kinds of socialism particularly with medical care but you can't tell a Dutch person the government should tell them how to think or any religion should tell them how to think. These are people that decide first and foremost as individuals.Their form of Protestant Christianity was about reform-questioning rigid ideology. Dutch people question everything. Maybe its because they are traders  so it comes natural to ask about everything they are going to buy and sell. They are a vibrant people that way. Their entire society is about finding out something new.Call it the import-export  influence of their no.1 economic activity. They don't go around envying people for having things they find a way to share and get those things in exchange for something else. Its a trading society. Traders exchange ideas constantly. So when they run into orthodox ideologies that can't flex and give and take, their is going to be a clash.

I have made a lot of generalizations and I am sure anyone Dutch will smile about what I said because its not 100% true butfor discussion purposes is accurate enough to say you can't expect a Dutch person to put up with people who won't give and take. Compromise is Dutch.

The problem though is the Dutch are not people who are afraid to talk openly about any intolerance and challenge it. Doesn't make them anti Muslim but boy they will challenge fundamental Islam like they once did Catholicism.

Hope that explains it because Holland is a wonderful but complex nation of creative free thinkers and its a mistake to think they are not having problems with their Muslim communities. Their own Muslim leaders are open and frank about it. Let's not let idiots like Le Penn or Wilders prevent open discussion about it.

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Rue

[Rue]

8 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

VVD is actually the party Wilder's used to belong too, and it's also the party of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who is an islamophobe according the the Islamic Human Rights Commission). CDA is a Christian conservative party. D66 seems relatively centrist. So it's inaccurate to say that the right lost the dutch election.

 

On the other hand, DENK, the Armenian genocide denying party that wants to ban words like 'integration', 'immigrant' and 'foreigner', use public money to fund imams, and want's to set up a 'racism register', where anyone who doesn't agree with SJWs will be called racist and put on the register, where those on the register will be unable to get a job in the public service, well they got 3 seats.

 

What a strange country.

Wilders is a strange man. He will in some speeches sound quite moderate and logical then in other speeches sound like an SS officer. As for Ayaan Hirsi Ali who is no longer in the Dutch Parliament. she was never a bigot like Wilders. She was a very precise woman in language challenging fundamentalist Muslim ideology and in particular how it impacted negatively on minorities and women. Ali is no Wilders or vice versa. In Wilders own party you have extremist neo Nazis but also very moderate people who hate fundamentalism.. There is just no point trying to label Dutch politicians. They say what they feel and it crosses party lines.

We have Muslim women in Canada like Ali. They too have faced a lot of backlash from mainstream fundamentalism Islamic clerics.

 

[Rue]

My apologies to any Dutch person. My threads are meant only for discussion not to talk for you. But hey just yesterday I was Irish.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rue said:

My apologies to any Dutch person. My threads are meant only for discussion not to talk for you. But hey just yesterday I was Irish.

But you got better?

[dre]

On 3/18/2017 at 11:04 AM, Rue said:

 

Some people think there is no problem in Europe with Muslims assimilating and if you say there is, its just racism and bigotry stating that. That is not true. Dutch people are famous for their tolerance but poll after poll shows they are very concerned with the future of their country and Muslims in Holland who are not assimilating into its culture.

 

Part of that is because people respond really well to fear mongerers. For example lots of people support Trumps "muslim immigration ban" or whatever they are calling it now, because Trump has successful pitched Muslims as a threat to the safety of Americans. But if you look at the actually data the opposite is true. Muslims are statistically LESS likely to kill Americans than other Americans. That means that every time a Muslim immigrates to the US Americans are actually statistically a bit safer.

So the entire thing is based on an easily demonstrable false premise. But people don't care because firebrand rhetoric is fun, but data and statistics are boring.

Same thing In Canada where a large segment of the population supports this moronic "Canadian Values" test. A solution is being proposed before it has even been demonstrated that there is a statistically significant problem.

Same thing goes for the war on terror where the west has spent about 6 trillion dollars combating a threat that is 1/7th as likely to kill them as being struck by lightening.

We don't live in an evidence based reality anymore.

[kactus]

16 hours ago, dre said:

Part of that is because people respond really well to fear mongerers. For example lots of people support Trumps "muslim immigration ban" or whatever they are calling it now, because Trump has successful pitched Muslims as a threat to the safety of Americans. But if you look at the actually data the opposite is true. Muslims are statistically LESS likely to kill Americans than other Americans. That means that every time a Muslim immigrates to the US Americans are actually statistically a bit safer.

So the entire thing is based on an easily demonstrable false premise. But people don't care because firebrand rhetoric is fun, but data and statistics are boring.

Same thing In Canada where a large segment of the population supports this moronic "Canadian Values" test. A solution is being proposed before it has even been demonstrated that there is a statistically significant problem.

Same thing goes for the war on terror where the west has spent about 6 trillion dollars combating a threat that is 1/7th as likely to kill them as being struck by lightening.

We don't live in an evidence based reality anymore.

Well stated...

And I am still waiting for an answer how could a ban on Muslims like Iranians can make America safe again. You heard the same argument from Trump supporters blaming the 'liberals', 'media', 'Obama', Hillary and so on. Just like anyone they are discontent with... 

On Dutch election....an interesting uptake by the Guardian on how the Brexit press miscalculated the election in Holland:

The alarmist Brexit press got everything wrong about the Dutch elections

Quote

Coverage of the Dutch elections last week is clear evidence that in the pro-Brexit media a toxic combination of ignorant hostility and selective perception continues to inform views about Europe. This attitude has led Britain to leave an organisation it never bothered to understand, in the hope of a future it did not examine. It is now leading Britain to fundamentally misunderstand the countries it depends on for a reasonable Brexit deal.  

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/20/brexit-press-dutch-elections-geert-wilders

Edited March 21, 2017 by kactus

[Argus]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:41 AM, bcsapper said:

But you got better?

Wouldn't that make him Scottish now?

[Argus]

20 hours ago, dre said:

Part of that is because people respond really well to fear mongerers.

Nonsense. If that were true than Wilders would have won a hell of a lot more seats than he did. 

20 hours ago, dre said:

For example lots of people support Trumps "muslim immigration ban" or whatever they are calling it now, because Trump has successful pitched Muslims as a threat to the safety of Americans.

Not exactly. He pitched the religious violence of the Muslim world as a threat to the safety of Americans, which, after 9/11, cannot be intelligently disputed. The degree of the danger can be.

But it's also not just about physical danger. It's about 'the other'. Another indisputable point is that people throughout the world feel more comfortable around others who are like themselves. Americans in certain communities find themselves among too many people who do not appear to be at all like them, and do not, to them, appear to respect America's values and culture. The most visible of these is Muslims.

20 hours ago, dre said:

Same thing In Canada where a large segment of the population supports this moronic "Canadian Values" test. A solution is being proposed before it has even been demonstrated that there is a statistically significant problem.

And again, you're ignoring the reality of why Canadians want a values test. It isn't a 'segment' btw, but the great majority. And it's not that they fear Muslim terrorism but that they fear Muslim values as their numbers climb.

 

[DogOnPorch]

There's what? About 3% of the population that's Muslim and we're already getting calls for blasphemy laws. They're calling the shots, now. What happens at 10% Muslim? More?? Yikes...

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

There's what? About 3% of the population that's Muslim and we're already getting calls for blasphemy laws. They're calling the shots, now.  

Ridiculous hyperbole.  By this logic a single opinion uttered by anyone from a group is grounds for declaring that group responsible and saying "they're calling the shots".

I really hope people don't buy this.  We've been tested to a far greater degree on inclusion in the past and have made it through.  This is no different, although some will say it is.

[blackbird]

22 hours ago, dre said:

Same thing goes for the war on terror where the west has spent about 6 trillion dollars combating a threat that is 1/7th as likely to kill them as being struck by lightening.

We don't live in an evidence based reality anymore.

You don't seem to be aware of the facts.   9-11 killed around 3,000 people.  Since 9-11, more than 30,000 people have been killed by jihad terrorist attacks around the world,  including a lot of Muslims.  They don't seem to care if Muslims are killed as well, but many christians are killed every week in some parts of the world.  Hundreds of people are killed every week or month by jihad terrorists.  The west cannot just sit back and do nothing.  That is not a sensible approach.   The truth is these jihad terrorists believe they will go to heaven right away and receive 72 virgins if they die fighting for Allah.  That is the simple fact.  That's why we see often that lone wolf attacks are often perpetrated by unstable, individuals with mental issues and who may have a criminal record, but who believe they can escape all their problems by dying in jihad and get those 72 virgins.

Edited March 21, 2017 by blackbird