Another USA warning to NATO members.....

[?Impact]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

There should be a better balance.

Which is more effective, the carrot or the stick?

[Argus]

Just now, ?Impact said:

Which is more effective, the carrot or the stick?

Depends on who you're dealing with Carrots are largely useless against the likes of China, Russia, North Korea, etc.

[Army Guy]

18 hours ago, dre said:

Why would we be pouting? Who cares if we are on the sidelines instead of wasting lives and treasure in poorly thought out and counter productive attempts to police the world.

You assume that the US would spend less if Canada spent more. Ridiculous. The US has a huge military budget because it is a major industry in many US states, and theres a massive amount of pork barreling and profiteering going on. If you honest think what Canada spends has anything whatsoever to do with what the US spends you are completely kidding yourself. The US wants other countries to spend more because they are the worlds biggest supplier of those things.

And NATO is the gift that keeps on taking. We have spent billions and wasted a lot of lives, and have never, and will never get anything in return. If Canadian sovereignty is challenged do you really believe that Albania, or Belgium, or Bulgaria, or Crotia, or Latvia, or Lithuania or Portugal are gonna rescue us? No... it will be the US simply because they would view a military trespass on this continent as being counter to their self interests, and maybe the UK.

Military spending wont do jack shit to help that. Those people need social services. And I have your backs... if I was in charge no Canadian troops wouldn't commit suicide because they wouldn't be sent on fools errands that are planned by idiots. Non-interventionalist foreign policy is the very best thing for soldiers, thats why Ron Paul won the military vote when he ran for president. Our troops would have been at home with their families for the last 50 years, and acting a corps of engineers, building low income housing, and Canadian infrastructure when they aren't training to make sure they are ready if our sovereignty is challenged. 

Well if we don't care about being on the sidelines why does all our PM's but so much concern into these organizations, NATO, NORAD, UN, or maybe your talking our the rear end of a passing bufflo, maybe Canada and it's PM's no something you don't. Maybe there are benefits to our country being involved in these defensive pacts....

I did not assume anything, I said that the US is getting tired of picking up the entire bill, and it was going to take measures if countries did not start picking up their own tabs....The US is the worlds largest military industrial complex.....However that being said, our country has very little US made wpns systems, most of the are european, design....

 

I'm glad you have it all figured out DRE, i'm also sure your new social services plan will be popular with the people, however ever nation on the globe has a military, every nation on the globe has used thier military to enforce their policies, home and abroad.....Including Canada, for all kinds of reasons, from fighting off the Boars, to the Germans in WWI, the NAZI's in WWII, korean conflict....the Afghanistan conflict.....and the countless of UN and NATO missions around the globe....

NON interventionalist policy is nothing more than sticking your head up our own ass, and pretending everything in the world is going just fine, and every once in a while we will remove our heads long enough to feel sorry, and some what guilty that people are starving, or living with the effects of war and we will feel the need to send some money, or invite a small percentage here.....then reinsert heads.....Works for you not me.... 

acting as corps of engineers, building low income housing...that is the best you can come up with for military uses....you don't want a military ...you want someone that will come by your house with a camouflaged lawn mower and do your out door work for you.....deliver your paper, clean up dog shit off your lawn....mean while you have no clue what your current military does for you and the rest of us on a daily basis, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.....Your sovereignty is challenged every day you just don't know it....

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Well if we don't care about being on the sidelines why does all our PM's but so much concern into these organizations, NATO, NORAD, UN, or maybe your talking our the rear end of a passing bufflo, maybe Canada and it's PM's no something you don't. Maybe there are benefits to our country being involved in these defensive pacts....

 

I think he has an eye to a greater calling: UN Secretary General Justin Trudeau. But that's just my wild theory...

[GostHacked]

Army Guy,  how does it feel to be used by the government? I mean to put forth something that was other than what we were told initially going into Afghanistan?

[Army Guy]

17 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Army Guy,  how does it feel to be used by the government? I mean to put forth something that was other than what we were told initially going into Afghanistan?

Why would you even care Gosthacked, you have been on the other side of most of the topics i have addressed, so explain to me why your concerned on how i feel to be used by the government, over and over again.....you make it sound like you were not screwed by the same government.....

I mean come on the liberals are just as guilty as the cons over this entire Afghanistan thing.....but i will tell you this after a while you get used to listening to your government talk out of both sides of their faces, and learn not to expect to much out of them...............However what will always stay with me is the lack of support from Canadian people , Ya thats right gost guys like you, left us there to rot in hell, you complained and whined only loud enough to have funding shut off, to ensure we did not get any of the equipment or supplies to finish the job Canadians sent us over, what equipment was purchased was done only when enough soldiers had died, and then it was only small numbers..........your complaints and whinning was not loud enough to have us withdrawn, because you did not care enough to make that happen......... And a majority of Canadians were good with that.....The Afghan mission was not a canadian mission in which the country took part in.....It was a DND mission that you stuck us with, then forgot we were there except when one of us returned to make a trip down the high way of heros....and it got a few second sound bite on the media.....then it was back to the hockey game.....

Don't get me wrong there are Canadians out there that deeply care about our military and the missions there are sent on, the care on how we are trained, and equiped.....but they are far from the majority.....I have made my peace with this betrayal.....one day so will you....

[BillyBeaver]

Army Guy, Canadians are only now waking up to the betrayal perpetrated by the globalist Liberal and Conservative Parties. Kandahar was a disaster, motivated by outright lies.

I thank you whoteheartedly for a commitment honoured with little support from fellow Canadians or our government.

 

On topic, so we have units in Ukraine and Iraq, at what benefit to us other than appeasing globalist assholes that want to continue to put pressure on Russia?

The EU has been secretly diverting NATO resources to fund an EU army. NATO is done for. I'm all for a US/UK/Aus/NZ/Canada military alliance. Fuck Europe. They've made their bed and now they can lay in it.

[Army Guy]

Is that how you would describe Canada's major political parties as globalist. I don't think they have the vision to be globalist, i mean most of their actions and policies seemed to be pointed towards themselves, not the nation or globally.  It is their continuous effort to get re elected that takes up most of their time, leaving very little time to really think about national improvements, let alone inter national.....Yes there are a few minutes the liberals have put together to try to win a seat in the UN, but this is party driven....

As far as Kandahar being a disaster, in your mind how so....and to whom are these disasters attributed to....

Well once again Canada and it's citizens need to take a look at the whole picture, such as Why are we still a member of NATO, and by being a member what does it give us....and to continue being a member what will it cost us, such as deploying troops to the fringes of NATO, or assisting in other ways on the ground in Iraq to train local troops...

Not sure what the EU is doing , what everyone does know is most EU nations have been riding the peace bonds that the destruction of the wall , and the pull back of Russian forces have created.... it is now to the point that there are major shortfalls in NATO defensive units...it was bad during the cold war, but it is down right disgusting now....militarily speaking.

As for ABCA  or  US/UK/Aus/NZ/Canada military alliance it has been a defensive pact for the most part since the end of WWII, and has been expanding rapidly over the last 10 years as the point of interest is shifting from the european theater to the pacific..

 

 

 

[BillyBeaver]

go to openparliament.ca and look at the conservatives and liberals stance on TPP and CETA and tell me they don't have globalist values.

 

I don't mean the way the military conducted themselves while stationed in kandahar, just the way that the americans used us a proxy for all the shit they didn't want to do. And, how quickly we jumped on board post 9/11. Chretien stayed out of Iraq purposefully and despite his flaws, he put Canadian lives first over sabrerattling by Bush and Blair.

I agree about nato units being underfunded, but Canada is very guilty of allowing our military infrastructure to deteriorate. The state of our Navy is very telling.

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, BillyBeaver said:

go to openparliament.ca and look at the conservatives and liberals stance on TPP and CETA and tell me they don't have globalist values.

 

I don't mean the way the military conducted themselves while stationed in kandahar, just the way that the americans used us a proxy for all the shit they didn't want to do. And, how quickly we jumped on board post 9/11. Chretien stayed out of Iraq purposefully and despite his flaws, he put Canadian lives first over sabrerattling by Bush and Blair.

I agree about nato units being underfunded, but Canada is very guilty of allowing our military infrastructure to deteriorate. The state of our Navy is very telling.

This is what i mean , TPP, CETA are about 1 % of they're platform, and activities, look at JT, he slipped in the poles so he conducts a canada wide election type campaign....worried about image instead of issues that effect our nation....everything they do is all about perception like they future plans of our military, they know it is going to get very costly to bring our military back into the fold, but their first act was to bring it to the public...lets gauge what they think....incorporate that into our plans and look like heros their plan is our plan........Now i would say 90% of Canadians know nothing or very little about our military, or the current state it is in right now....the logical thing to do would be inform Canadians on the state of our military, and then lay out a well thought out plan to correct the situation, Leadership is also making those decisions that may be unpopular with the public but necessary for the nation....

Perhaps i have a very different perspective of Afghanistan, Even in Kanadar we worked very closely with the the US armed forces, keeping in mind the base in Kanadar had over 40,000 troops on it, or around it....and at the peak of Canadian operations we had only 3800...maybe 4200 during rotation periods...troops on the ground....a spec of sand in the desert of things.....Kanadar was far from the largest base in Afghanistan.....The Canadian Area of operations was huge, the size of PEI, Kanadar was the birth place of the Taliban so they would not let it go without a fight.....Remember this is the time were this operation is becoming not very popular with the people back home....so getting in more troops was out of the question, as with getting in newer equipment well that was paid for by the blood of our soldiers.....and trust me equipment costs alot of lives.....

As for us being their proxy, well if you look at all the other nations there, Canada did not have all the restrictions they had......restrictions in ROE, (rules of engagement) restrictions on how we could be deployed, could we be used in combat, Canada had sent us over to do one thing "Combat" get er down......while other nation were very restrictive on the use of their combat troops. So when things needed to get down , Canadian military got the call, that and the fact we had by this time earned a rock solid reputation as soldiers that could be counted upon....I don't remember how many times we we asked to assist the UK or US troops for operations or while they were under attack...SO it may of seemed like we got all the shit jobs they did not want, but i can remember staying over night in some UK and US FOB's while passing through, and thinking to myself, i've been to alot of shit holes but i would not want to be there in the middle of no where, surrounded by taliban, being in contact for 355 days out of a 365 day tour....with most engagements lasting a couple of hours....these units or sub units would have a 40 to 45 % Cas rate, over a full year that is alot of lost comrads....

I think you give Chretien to much credit , he threw us to the dogs without even missing a beat, he may of made the right decision on Iraq, but he knew we were going somewhere, and despite DND recommendations again'st going into Afghan.....we went, regardless of our equipment, supplies, or troops strengths.....

Canada has no excuses for letting it's military slide into it's current state.....and the navy may be the worse element, all 3 of them are in terrible shape....IE the army has fields upon fields full of military trucks completely rusted out, being used for parts to keep the last 1/3 of them on the road.....and todate only one truck type out of 6 has been ordered and expected to arrive and operational  in 2018-19....The army can not move with out trucks....units train by gather trucks up from dozens of other units, or by renting school busses.....or for going training with vehs and doing everything dismounted.....meaning by foot....one question how can a Mechanized unit train for combat while being dismounted.....You Can't....Don't get me started on Armoured Fighting vehs and all their shortages.... 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Army Guy

[BillyBeaver]

Thank you for highlighting many of the concerns facing our military and expressing what Afghan deployment was like.

You're right about Chretien green-lighting afghanistan with no debate or criticism much like the Iraq WMD debacle.

 

We need two years of 10% GDP spending on defence and a stronger domestic military-industrial base. We are so weak in so many regards because we have wasted so much money on useless crap.

[Army Guy]

22 minutes ago, BillyBeaver said:

Thank you for highlighting many of the concerns facing our military and expressing what Afghan deployment was like.

You're right about Chretien green-lighting afghanistan with no debate or criticism much like the Iraq WMD debacle.

 

We need two years of 10% GDP spending on defence and a stronger domestic military-industrial base. We are so weak in so many regards because we have wasted so much money on useless crap.

What our nation needs is to replace equipment as it becomes due for replacement, to have a steady form of funding, not one that gets chopped just before every election because it is an easy target....I am not advocating for a huge military, or a military capable of knocking over small countries.....i am advocating a military large enough to defend our sovereignty,  all our foreign interests, all our defensive pacts to include NATO, NORAD, ABCA, plus have the resources to assist with any operations that other security agencies with our nation might have , Such as CSIS , RCMP, DFO, etc etc and lastly to be able to respond to any natural disaster within our borders with a reasonable force level to make a difference....

[Army Guy]

 

Quote

 

WASHINGTON — Canadian MPs visiting Washington this week said they kept hearing a familiar message in the United States capital: that Canada and other NATO partners will be expected to pony up more money for the military.

It's something members of the parliamentary committee on national defence said they would take home after three days of meetings at the Pentagon, the U.S. Capitol and think-tanks that concluded Wednesday.

They tempered that by saying their U.S. interlocutors recognized Canada's non-financial contributions — such as volunteering for roles in combat zones including Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq, in addition to efforts in Eastern Europe.

 

 

Liberals see using existing military to deflect the mandatory 2 % of GDP that is required for membership in NATO....this is to all those liberals that think our government should not be sending our troops to the worlds shit holes......This practice is not going to stop, it is how they will get out of their expected commitments to NATO.....

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/7180133-canadian-mps-get-clear-message-in-washington-spend-more-on-defence/

 

Quote

 

Stephen Fuhr, the Liberal chair of the defence committee, said there's clearly a desire to see Canada spend more, but no one is demanding that Canada rush to the NATO spending target of two per cent of GDP.

"Is there an expectation? I'll be 100 per cent frank. Yes. There's an expectation Canada will contribute more," he said. "There's no doubt about that. But there's also a recognition of what Canada does bring to the table — which I think is also very important.

 

See the liberals think this is all talk and will blow by with time......I mean it has not happened in the past....why would they hold us accountable now....SO what does Canada bring to the table....well the ability to deploy a small battle group, the fact that there will be close to  2000 soldiers deployed that will be close to it's maximum....and there are counting on that to be enough to make up the close to 20 Bil shortage in NATO membership spending.

Quote

Despite that pressure, there are indications the federal budget later this month will not include any significant new injections of money for the military. Rather, many are now turning their attention to the fall, by which point the Liberals will have completed their defence policy review.

Yes the Defense review we have all been waiting on, this is where we find out exactly how the people of Canada think about our military, by answering those important questions, like how should it be funded, equipped, etc.....Now we already know that the majority of Canadians do not want to spend more on the military... so how is all this current NATO spending  going to sit with those Canadians that took their time on the surveys.... Not very well, the liberals are looking for the US to find some middle ground.....

 

Quote

 

One defence analyst suggests the likely long-term target is far more modest: 1.2 per cent of GDP. The current level is just under one per cent. David Perry calculates that adding the coast guard to the defence budget would take Canada nearly one-quarter of the way there.

But he warns against it.

"It will be transparent to other countries," said Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. "Our coast guard does a lot of things — but defence of the coasts is not one of them. ... It's going to be pretty transparent that we're fiddling with our accounting framework."

 

In fact they are looking at 1.2 percent....now there is a huge compromise on NATO's part..and if that was to much for Canadians to swallow ....they will try and include the funding of our Coast Guard into the the DND budget....but wait a minute, the coast guard is not armed, nor do they have the mandate to defend anything really, we'll have to keep an eye on this one, because the Liberals have already changed the way things are reported to suit their needs. Remember how our F-18's were counted and how their numbers were prioritized , a quick stroke of the pen and boom shac alaca boom.....now we don't have enough F-18's to do the job...that some how we had enough for 25 years.

 

SO to sum things up.....there is going to be increases in military spending ....according to liberals they are going to low ball NATO, to see where that goes....Canada will try a little bit of magic by deploying it's forces around the globe to make up some of the shortfall in it's NATO spending.....According to the Liberals don't expect any increases to our military this year....their proposed increases will be over 10 years.....WOW that will address all the shortfalls within our military....i can't wait to see how they deal with other problems in the country.....like legalization of pot.....more disappointment all around...but hey sunny ways are on the way....just 2 more years until the next election cycle... 

[?Impact]

32 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

they will try and include the funding of our Coast Guard into the the DND budget....but wait a minute, the coast guard is not armed, nor do they have the mandate to defend anything really

The security of society is dependent on much ore than armed law enforcement or military force. Canada should be looking at spending more on both domestic and international security efforts that don't involve shoving a rifle in someones face and demanding their supplication. The military forces of Canada (and the US) are involved in many non-military efforts, and that is fine but it is limiting. Lets focus on non-military missions through non-military forces, we would get more support and more individuals willing to participate.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

The security of society is dependent on much ore than armed law enforcement or military force. Canada should be looking at spending more on both domestic and international security efforts that don't involve shoving a rifle in someones face and demanding their supplication.

Soooo.... more money for housing?

To uh, defend ourselves?

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, ?Impact said:

The security of society is dependent on much ore than armed law enforcement or military force. Canada should be looking at spending more on both domestic and international security efforts that don't involve shoving a rifle in someones face and demanding their supplication. The military forces of Canada (and the US) are involved in many non-military efforts, and that is fine but it is limiting. Lets focus on non-military missions through non-military forces, we would get more support and more individuals willing to participate.

Then you'll need to change your vote won't you....because the Liberals have already laid out their hand, they won't spend much on the military, but they will squezze evry once of blood out of them that they can....Want to stop military deployments liberals will have to send a stronger message.....

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, ?Impact said:

The security of society is dependent on much ore than armed law enforcement or military force. Canada should be looking at spending more on both domestic and international security efforts that don't involve shoving a rifle in someones face and demanding their supplication. The military forces of Canada (and the US) are involved in many non-military efforts, and that is fine but it is limiting. Lets focus on non-military missions through non-military forces, we would get more support and more individuals willing to participate.

I used the example of the Canadian Coast because the Liberals were going to use this agency as a underhanded trick to boast military spending, to make it look like we spend more of our GDP on defense....nothings is above the liberals including lying to our allieds in order to not pay our agreed amount in percentage of GDP...which shows the world our actual commitment towards NATO....towards any of our defensive agreements.

 

[herples]

After the fall of the Soviet Union NATO became obsolete. The US won't do anything to shake the boat too much which is why they will continue to complain about freeloaders. 

[PIK]

What ever happens ,keep us out of africa.

[DogOnPorch]

8 hours ago, herples said:

After the fall of the Soviet Union NATO became obsolete. The US won't do anything to shake the boat too much which is why they will continue to complain about freeloaders. 

 

Zoom out...

 

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, herples said:

After the fall of the Soviet Union NATO became obsolete. The US won't do anything to shake the boat too much which is why they will continue to complain about freeloaders. 

They are shaking the boat , they have grown tired of paying for everything, and ponying up the troops all of the time.....they have every reason to complain....Canada has been free loading for quite awhile now, it's time to live up to our agreements.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Army Guy

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

They are shaking the boat , they have grown tired of paying for everything, and ponying up the troops all of the time.....they have every reason to complain....

Right, just wait until the bill for reparations comes due then you'll hear some real snivelling.

Quote

Canada has been free loading for quite awhile now, it's time to live up to our agreements.

We agreed to go on a multi-decade long rampage around the world with our allies?

Who's brainwave was that?

[Army Guy]

56 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Right, just wait until the bill for reparations comes due then you'll hear some real snivelling.

We agreed to go on a multi-decade long rampage around the world with our allies?

Who's brainwave was that?

Every Canadian Citizen has a voice, all you need to do is grab those dangling things between your legs and squeeze, that pain you feel is proof your alive, and your voice does work.....don't like the way things are being run get involved, or STFU, and work on things you can control like getting cable into your tree house, putting up anti chainsaw panels around the base of your tree....

[herples]

15 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Zoom out...

 

 

Russia is a country the USSR was a group of countries. The attempt to surround Russia will not create any desirable response. However viewing NATO as obsolete does not mean it has to be dismantled it needs to change it's goals to meet the challenges of today.

13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

They are shaking the boat , they have grown tired of paying for everything, and ponying up the troops all of the time.....they have every reason to complain....Canada has been free loading for quite awhile now, it's time to live up to our agreements.

NATO is too important for the US to get rid of or to sanctions member states over military spending. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Deadbeat NATO allies actually had the gall to blame the United States for Russia's success in the Crimea.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/18/white-house-promises-more-sanctions-russia/

Like Canada,  NATO members in Europe have the permanent expectation that the very largest burden should always fall on the Americans.   This way they are free to spend more money on their social welfare states.