bush_cheney2004 Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just now, ?Impact said: Nor does it have to do with this topic, perhaps you and taxme need to take this conversion offline. Canada's Hug-A-Thug® policies for perps must be very appealing to criminals, including refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Thanks Betsy, I appreciate you helping out taxme here. Let's watch and see how the Swedish government responds. I believe that we're in an era where these claims have to be investigated carefully on both sides. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Thanks Betsy, I appreciate you helping out taxme here. Let's watch and see how the Swedish government responds. I believe that we're in an era where these claims have to be investigated carefully on both sides. Thanks again. I know of one response from a Swede MP: Rape by migrants isn't as bad. So....when being raped by a migrant, just relax and enjoy it. Edited February 20, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, betsy said: I know of one response from a Swede MP: Rape by migrants isn't as bad. So....when being raped by a migrant, just relax and enjoy it. Some people go a great degree to attribute rape with immigration equating to muslims and therefore attach that stigma with religion and therefore everyone who is a muslim. How long would it take to realise that it is not just about 'immigration', 'integration', 'multi-culturalism' or anything that we can sub consciously attribute to the religion of Islam and muslims before someone has the guts to say it like it is and call this discrimination against a whole bunch of people reardless of their backgrounds..... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, ?Impact said: Yes, that is a good article and worth reading. It explains why the statistics are higher in Sweden than other jurisdictions, and yes have absolutely nothing to do with recent immigrants/refugees. We've seen in the UK and Germany, open admissions from the media that they have either shrank from identifying the ethnicity of Muslim attackers, or actually cooperated with the authorities in downplaying any tales of sexual assault committed by migrants. To my knowledge there has been no admission of this from the Swedish media but there have been very strong allegations of it for years. This story in Mother Jones actually points out how Doug Saunders, a left wing columnist for the Globe and Mail, is doing the same thing about Sweden. Take a look at the charts on crime they show. This came from RT, of all places, a Facebook rant from a Swedish cop angry over the number of sexual assaults he keeps seeing by Muslim migrants. And this is from the Daily Mail, which details how Swedish media and government sweep such accusations under the table. Fears of a cover-up have been fuelled by an investigation published by a flourishing online Swedish news outlet Nyheter Idag, showing that Swedish authorities hid from the public sexual assaults by immigrant gangs on scores of teenage girls at a popular Stockholm music festival both last year and in 2014. The Swedish police and a national newspaper were accused of hiding the truth deliberately because the perpetrators were migrants. Astonishingly, Stockholm police chief Peter Agren – in charge of the 2014 festival – admitted later: ‘Sometimes we dare not tell how it is because we think it plays into the hands of the Sweden Democrats.’ Edited February 20, 2017 by Argus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 3 hours ago, kactus said: Some people go a great degree to attribute rape with immigration equating to muslims and therefore attach that stigma with religion and therefore everyone who is a muslim. How long would it take to realise that it is not just about 'immigration', 'integration', 'multi-culturalism' or anything that we can sub consciously attribute to the religion of Islam and muslims before someone has the guts to say it like it is and call this discrimination against a whole bunch of people reardless of their backgrounds..... Everything would be just fine if Swedish women cover up their bodies with Burkas. That should help muslim men to calm down, right? they can't help themselves and we should welcome them with open arms, and our daughters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, OftenWrong said: Everything would be just fine if Swedish women cover up their bodies with Burkas. The problem I have with this discussion is that people make extreme statements for effect. If you're asking people to open their minds then it would seem to me that you would want to do your part to help frame the discussion in a sober manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: The problem I have with this discussion is that people make extreme statements for effect. If you're asking people to open their minds then it would seem to me that you would want to do your part to help frame the discussion in a sober manner. I know, but we are far beyond that point. The effect in my case is to demonstrate how easy it is for some on the left, who claim to be the vanguard of women's rights to dismiss these repeat offenses, because they don't fit the narrative. People coming from a land where they maintain what we call Barbaric Cultural Practices have difficulty integrating into our liberal society. Since they don't have to undergo any special training, they are released into society in large numbers. They form groups with others of their kind since that is the only kind of person they can relate to. It doesn't take much cranial power to connect the dots, unless of course you refuse to acknowledge it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: It doesn't take much cranial power to connect the dots, unless of course you refuse to acknowledge it. I think it's more complicated than that. I'll dialogue with people who can make a case without resorting to hyperbole and hysterical fear mongering, though. If people really want to solve a problem, they should be able to frame the problem without those trappings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: I think it's more complicated than that. I'll dialogue with people who can make a case without resorting to hyperbole and hysterical fear mongering, though. If people really want to solve a problem, they should be able to frame the problem without those trappings. Is it hyperbole or mere sarcasm? I don't think it's hysterical either. And he's right about the inevitable results of taking large numbers of young men who have never been exposed to more than a female ankle, if that, who have been taught from birth that any woman who doesn't dress modestly is a total whore and putting them on the streets of Sweden, or for that matter, Australia or Canada. Western women do not act in any way, shape or form the way a proper Muslim woman is supposed required to act. In fact, they act in ways which would bring shame and humiliation on a Muslim man from that region if they were related to him. They dress in ways which would get them mobbed in a Middle East country. And the entire Middle east male population has taken it as a given for at least the last few decades, that western women are whores, almost mythical creatures of sexual abandon. I posted a column by a British woman a short time back who related how she and her sisters had to live in Turkey for a year or so when their father was posted there as a diplomat. In 1993, when I was 17 and my sister were 12 and 11, our family moved to the Turkish capital, Ankara, because of my father’s job with the UN’s refugee agency, the UNHCR. For the next two years we were leered at, jeered at, hissed at, groped and touched, again and again and again, every single time we left the house. The only time this treatment lessened was if we went out with my father. Once I was groped and hit in the face right outside the president’s palace. The guards responded by hooting and laughing and shoving their pelvises at me. And remember that Turkey is supposedly one of the more 'enlightened' of the middle east states. So just what the hell do you think is going to happen when we bring hundreds of thousands of men from that environment here? What happens when one goes to a swimming pool and sees a bunch of teenage girls prancing around in bikinis? Edited February 20, 2017 by Argus 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 The New York Times has a good article about all the imagined issues with Sweden, and of course the imaginer in chief as well. It addresses many of those imaginations that have been repeated at MLW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, ?Impact said: The New York Times has a good article about all the imagined issues with Sweden, and of course the imaginer in chief as well. It addresses many of those imaginations that have been repeated at MLW. All this points out is that the government stopped keeping crime stats by ethnicity years ago. It does NOT point out they stopped because they feared they would be used to stoke anti-immigrant feelings, since they showed a very disproportionate amount of crime, particularly assaults and rapes coming from non-Swedes. The governments in Canada also refuse to keep crime stats for the same reason. Thus you cannot "prove" that they are in any way disproportionate, which is what the government wants. That doesn't mean everyone doesn't know damned well they ARE disproportionate, even though we rarely get much government evidence of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Argus said: All this points out Obviously you didn't read the entire article and the many sources it referenced. I can't be responsible for your selective reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just now, ?Impact said: Obviously you didn't read the entire article and the many sources it referenced. I can't be responsible for your selective reading. I read it. It did not contradict the articles I have printed. It merely had a different view. Yes, a couple of cops said they had been misquoted, but I'm not quoting those cops anyway. It says crime "overall" hasn't risen between 2015 and 2016, but assaults and rapes have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 20 minutes ago, Argus said: Is it hyperbole or mere sarcasm? I think it's the former, but it's not helpful. I'm interested in the topic, but I think the bigger problem is how to discuss it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: I think it's more complicated than that. I'll dialogue with people who can make a case without resorting to hyperbole and hysterical fear mongering, though. If people really want to solve a problem, they should be able to frame the problem without those trappings. It is indeed, far far more complicated than that. As to solving, it would be great if we could solve anything at all in a discussion forum. At the very least, we do learn many facts from one another which helps to shape our opinions. I enjoy that part of forum discussion the most, uncovering facts that are not evident through splashy headlines/ slogans/ soundbites. One thing you are not involved in as a moderator is the relationship between two posters who hold strongly differing views, and the back-and-forth dialogue, rhetorical, teasing and a kind of rapport that ensues. It is off-topic, just a reminder! Edited February 20, 2017 by OftenWrong Had to remind the mod to stay on topic... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: The problem I have with this discussion is that people make extreme statements for effect. If you're asking people to open their minds then it would seem to me that you would want to do your part to help frame the discussion in a sober manner. The problem is the "other people" are not willing to hear the other side of the argument...Blaming certain muslims from 7 mentioned countries is used to score a political point. I like to call it 'brownie points'. Heck, there are even people on this forum who use muslims as a framework to exonerate the actions of the israeli government...Recent expansion of settlement in the occupied territory rings a bell? Where are those so called moderates who advocate for progressive muslims to have a voice? Why don't these people come out and condone the actions of the BIBI governments? When these people start listening to the other side of the argument then maybe (perhaps maybe) it leaves a room for engaging in constructive discussion to shape our opinions. In the absence of those voices taking a critical thinking and call the spade for what it is it will create room for ambiguity and polarity in opinions... I do appreciate this is a bit off topic here but it just gives me the impression that some opinions is already shaped by some of us and quite biased in favour of a political ideology distorting the reality. Edited February 21, 2017 by kactus 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, kactus said: The problem is the "other people" are not willing to hear the other side of the argument...Blaming certain muslims from 7 mentioned countries is used to score a political point. I like to call it 'brownie points'. Heck, there are even people on this forum who use muslims as a framework to exonerate the actions of the israeli government...Recent expansion of settlement in the occupied territory rings a bell? Where are those so called moderates who advocate for progressive muslims to have a voice? Why don't these people come out and condone the actions of the BIBI governments? When these people start listening to the other side of the argument then maybe (perhaps maybe) it leaves a room for engaging in constructive discussion to shape our opinions. In the absence of those voices taking a critical thinking and call the spade for what it is it will create room for ambiguity and polarity in opinions... I do appreciate this is a bit off topic here but it just gives me the impression that some opinions is already shaped by some of us and quite biased in favour of a political ideology distorting the reality. I appreciate most of what you said until you threw in the accusation there are people on the forum who use Muslims as a framework to exonerate the actions of the Israeli government. The rest of your comments are fair and well stated. That one allegation however is questionable. When people criticize the policies of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas Hezbollah, Muslims who engage in terrorism against Israel hat is fair game. If all Palestinians are stereotyped as evil that's anti Palestinianism not anti Islam. You are having problems and seem to be lumping any criticism of Palestinian extremism as anti Muslim which is b.s. Katcus you have come on this board and you ask for a standard to be upheld which is fair but the problem is you demonstrate time and time again when you claim to be challenging Israeli state policies, you find it fair to stereotype negatively all Israelis and then all Jews. You have done it over and over again and its as wrong as slurring all Muslims when challenging Muslim extremists and terrorists or Palestinian extremists and terrorists. You couldn't even manage to get your point across without twisting it to try justify your slurs against all Israelis and Jews when challenging Israeli state policies Your sentence clearly indicates you think it o.k. to engage in the very comments you challenge others for as long as you pretext it as being anti Israeli. You are trying to use the anti Muslim card to shelter justify your own anti Jewish, anti Israeli comments. You can't get a sentence out without insulting all Jews and challenging them for existing as a Jewish state. You don't believe Jews have the equal right to a state as Muslims do. That Sir is a bigoted belief and you should practice what you preach. Stop challenging my right or any Jew's right to have a state and live terror free in that state. Until you do your comments are bigoted. As for slurring all Muslims because of the beliefs of the PA or Hamas etc., yes that is equally as unfair.. Edited February 21, 2017 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 So a survey out today says the Liberals are 'testing the limits' of Canada's acceptance of refugees. 47% thought things were fine, while 41% thought we were taking in too many. Almost no one wanted to take in more. I wonder what the poll numbers would have been if they only asked native born Canadians... I also wonder what the numbers are going to show if, as seems very likely, we get a continual increase in illegal entries on the border as the snow melts, and people see them as queue jumpers (which tends to tick off legitimate immigrants who went through the process even more than it does the native born Canadians). http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/liberal+government+98testing+limits+canadians+attitudes+refugees/12951165/story.html A story the other day in the Toronto Star again points out that most of those crossing the border aren't the general run of illegals in the US who are Latinos. Most of those crossing the border are Africans, especially Somalians. When quizzing Somalis in Minneapolis all of them praised Trudeau and all of them knew his immigration minister was a Somalian. And they thought border crossings were going to increase, not decrease. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/02/17/us-somalis-not-surprised-many-refugees-eyeing-canada-amid-trump.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kactus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Rue said: Quote I appreciate most of what you said until you threw in the accusation there are people on the forum who use Muslims as a framework to exonerate the actions of the Israeli government. The rest of your comments are fair and well stated. That one allegation however is questionable. Wonder why those allegations are questionable rue. You may have seen something in my post there which fits you nicely into one of those people to slander me Quote When people criticize the policies of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas Hezbollah, Muslims who engage in terrorism against Israel hat is fair game. Subjective based on your opinion not mine.... Quote If all Palestinians are stereotyped as evil that's anti Palestinianism not anti Islam. You are having problems and seem to be lumping any criticism of Palestinian extremism as anti Muslim which is b.s. The subject matter of the conversation here are syrian refugees not palestinians. But since you brought them up palestinians are muslims which many here blame for Islam. So stereotyping against muslims happens all the time. Quote Katcus you have come on this board and you ask for a standard to be upheld which is fair but the problem is you demonstrate time and time again when you claim to be challenging Israeli state policies, you find it fair to stereotype negatively all Israelis and then all Jews. You have done it over and over again and its as wrong as slurring all Muslims when challenging Muslim extremists and terrorists or Palestinian extremists and terrorists. Rue, rue, rue.....Stop it! Really stop this nonsense victim card that you play over and over again. You know you are beginning to sound like godwin to literally kill off the discssion for anyone who dismisses the israeli government. That is pure hyperbole and scare mongering I have seen you resort to to divert from other pertinent issues. Ofcourse you would do that in a biased way in favour of Israel as I would expect a hard core palestinian doing the same for their palestinian cause. Difference is you get your brownies from alot of advocates here. Palestinians don't have same privileges to voice their concerns. And if a liberal like me as some of you like to refer to me voice those concerns you would't hesitate to shut it off because it shakes your norm/ what you are inclined to listen to. So for you to critisize me in this way is not surprising. I think it's rich of you coming on this board putting words in my mouth... Quote You couldn't even manage to get your point across without twisting it to try justify your slurs against all Israelis and Jews when challenging Israeli state policies Your sentence clearly indicates you think it o.k. to engage in the very comments you challenge others for as long as you pretext it as being anti Israeli. I am sorry rue but that is just drivel....Again it wouldn't stop you falling short of calling me and almost half the people on this forum as anti semitic because that rhyme does not play welll with you. Well guess what I don't deny the fact that the actions of the Israeli government is attrocious and if you are too blind to condone that then too bad. Not my problem... Quote You are trying to use the anti Muslim card to shelter justify your own anti Jewish, anti Israeli comments. You can't get a sentence out without insulting all Jews and challenging them for existing as a Jewish state. You don't believe Jews have the equal right to a state as Muslims do. That Sir is a bigoted belief and you should practice what you preach. Stop challenging my right or any Jew's right to have a state and live terror free in that state. Until you do your comments are bigoted. As for slurring all Muslims because of the beliefs of the PA or Hamas etc., yes that is equally as unfair.. Same way you have been using the anti semite card with anyone who disagrees with the israeli government's policies and have accused them. That sir is an ignorant belief that whatever is happening there right now including the construction of illegal settlements in occupied territories is somehow justified. That phrase 'practice what you preach' is very appropriate here. Fyi, it is not your right to continue building settlements in an area that does not belong to you. And that honourable gentlemen is breaching the UN resolution. Until you do breach your comments are bigoted. Self inflicted travesty... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Kactus I have never in one sentence, one word, one phrase on this forum ever stated someone was an anti-Semite for criticizing Israeli state policies. You have made that allegation many times and when asked to provide the words where I did this have never responded because you know they do not exist. As for the rest of your comments, I am not engaging in any debate with you on a different issue than the one on this thread. I repeat again, the fact people criticize Islamic religious precepts or Muslims who use their religion to justify engaging in terrorism or extreme political behaviour does not make people anti Muslim. Your attempt now to claim any criticism of anyone who is Muslim for any reason is anti Muslim as you are doing, speaks for itself and its why people like you are challenged You try use the anti Muslim card to censor debate about Muslim extremist beliefs, Muslim terrorism, words that slur all Jews, Israelis for being either or both. You do not demonstrate in any of your responses you differentiate between Israeli state policies, Israelis as a people, and Jews. For that matter you lump all Palestinians, Muslims, terrorists who are both or one or the other into one category. I find your very choice of words explains how you generalize and don't differentiate, the very thing you criticize others for doing. Now put up or shut up. Provide the words where I called someone an anti semite simply because they criticized an Israeli state policy. Put up or shut up. You have been asked over and over to prove your allegation and you can't. That speaks loudly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Well Argus to start with why are we using the word refugee interchangeably with illegal entrant? You notice how the press refers to illegal entrants automatically as refugees when the vast majority are not and eventually will be rejected as refugees? The CBC, CTV call such people refugees. They assume they fit the UN definition. Most do not. Even worse we now have cities stating openly they welcome people who break Canadian laws, jump the line ahead of legitimate immigrants applying and refugees applyting through the proper process. This is insane. What the hell is a sanctuary city? It simply means the municipality says loudly to coyotes, keep smuggling your line jumpers in and making your millions we will aid and abet your breaking the law! Its a fair question to ask-is the Mayor of Montreal, the Mayor of Toronto, the Mayors of sanctuary cities being paid off by coyotes? Why are they rewarding people breaking Canadian laws? Why are they undermining our laws and creating floodgate at our borders encouraging line jumping? Do these Mayors, do you, do I, does our press, do our politicians know the difference between a legitimate immigrant applicant, a legitimate refugee applicant, and illegals breaking our laws to jump the line in front of the other two? How is that right? Why is our press portraying these people as heroes? The coyotes, the organized criminal syndicates now dumping illegals in Canada are laughing at us. The floodgates have been opened and spineless politicians who all want to play the role of good guy and tolerant lover of the down-trodden are in fact pissing on the rights of legitimate immigrants and refugees to their prejudice in favour of these illegals. Its wrong. Dead wrong. Oh its politically popular but its dead wrong. Isn't it interesting that the floodgates now turned on and being blamed on Trump has nothing to do with Syrian refugees and everything to do with illegal entrants who won't qualify for refugee status or immigration status. Let the people who support illegal lime jumping explain how those illegal line jumpers are not prejudicing the rights of legitimate immigrants and refugees. Lol, don't hold your breath. Let one person say to me I am anti immigrant or anti refugee because I think line jumping illegals are prejudicing and harming them. Please, just one. I would love to explain to them how encouraging jumping in front of immigrants and refugees is pro immigrant or pro refugee. Edited February 21, 2017 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Yes, the press is lazy in referring to refugee claimants as simply refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, ?Impact said: Yes, the press is lazy in referring to refugee claimants as simply refugees. Most of them are economic migrants. I reject the notion that every person from an unstable country qualifies as a refugee in Canada. Sure Somalia is a craphole. Does that mean all of the millions who live there qualify as refugees? Lots of people live there and rarely encounter anything of violence, nor are they under personal threat from those who are fighting. The same goes for almost all those coming here from North Africa. For that matter, the same goes for almost all the migrants who have gone to Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxme Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 On 2/20/2017 at 6:49 AM, Michael Hardner said: Can we have a cite for this ? I have noticed a pattern whereby people make up stories, then claim that the media is lying by not reporting the fake stories. So if you are posting in good faith, I expect you to provide a source for your claims here. I get most of my stories from Youtube, and The Rebel/Ezra Levant website among many others. The videos that I watch on You tube have shown actual events that have recently occoured, and I have no reason to doubt those videos that I am viewing are reporting false or fake news. Stories that I never see on the main stream Canadian media. All one has to do is go to Youtube and punch in Swedish rapes and other associated crimes involving so-called migrants in Sweden. I hope that answered your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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