Arrest (in Edmonton) leads to renewed criticism of refugee policy

[BillyBeaver]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I agree there are processes to follow but I wouldn't entrust their application to right-wing conservatives. I think conservatism lacks the empathy and the ethical and moral background that such a sensitive task requires.

The failings and deficiencies of conservatives are always on topic when it comes to dealing with the needs of human beings in distress.

As opposed to "left-wing conservatives" lol. What a statement. Vegreville (full of rural, conservative 2nd and 3rd gen Canadians) handled a lot of Immigration canada's paperwork. Suggesting that conservatives lack empathy as a group is both fallacious and detached from reality. 

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Let's either decide we're going to follow the zeitgeist (anecdotal evidence, cringing fears that blow with the wind) or science.  One or the other.  If you state a principle, then you had better be prepared to be wrong a lot of the time.   Few have the guts to do that.

We can start by following the same dictionary and terms of references. A refugee is no more an immigrant than a patient is a convict.

There is a difference in vetting immigrant doctors and engineers and providing asylum for poor huddled oppressed masses. There can be no principled approach to any issue so long as people are allowed to blend what are clearly different things into one amorphous blob.

[dialamah]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

Evidence of this 'growing subculture'?

Alt-right.   Check out http://www.radixjournal.com read a few of the blogs ... see if you can't pick out the themes of racism and sexism, not to mention anti-gay sentiment.   There is a Canadian component too "http://www.eurocanadian.ca/" - same basic message:  Men should be men and dominate women; feminism is evil - women should stay home and make babies; non-Whites are 'lesser humans', etc.   These folks believe a lot of what Muslims and fundie Christians believe, and they're not even religious!

Alt-right growing in Canada

Alt-right crime increases after Trump's win

Alt-right considered radical hate group

SFU Study shows increase of alt-right

5 hours ago, BillyBeaver said:

I'm of the idea that bigots and discrimination have always existed in Canada

Perhaps so, but they are no prettier than a Muslim who holds the same views.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, BillyBeaver said:

As opposed to "left-wing conservatives" lol. What a statement. Vegreville (full of rural, conservative 2nd and 3rd gen Canadians) handled a lot of Immigration canada's paperwork.

They sound a lot more progressive than conservative. Actions speak louder than words.

Quote

Suggesting that conservatives lack empathy as a group is both fallacious and detached from reality.

The suggestion is based on years of being compared to Stalin and Pol Pot - who were both brutally conservative in their application of communism. Further evidence of this is in their utter lack of empathy and principles when wielding their power and authority and their actions were about as far from progressive as it gets.

Edited March 9, 2017 by eyeball

[BillyBeaver]

          

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

They sound a lot more progressive than conservative. Actions speak louder than words.

The suggestion is based on years of being compared to Stalin and Pol Pot - who were both brutally conservative in their application of communism. Further evidence of this is in their utter lack of empathy and principles when wielding their power and authority and their actions were about as far from progressive as it gets.

No, you're confusing conservative with authoritarian in the case of the two dictators. Stalin and Pol Pot are both Authoritarian Left.

Here's the political compass. Take the test.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/counterpoint-20161110

it's not lack of empathy and principles, it's the state-first group before individual philosophy. All authoritarian governments, including our own, have tendencies towards class separation and institutional divides as a method of social control. The problem is we have enabled the representatives of our Dominion to overstep their bounds in return for privacy and isolational oblivion. Most people you meet aren't fully engaged in the real world. Their minds are so singular and compartmentalized its difficult to engage. A libertarian collectivist model searches for meeting group goals while retaining individual liberties with limits. 

I'm getting offtopic but I fail to see how the application of communism changes the outcome in any way at all. I don't think that Islam can comprehend equality with the Hadiths essentially giving a guide to violent conquest by force. Moral relativism bounces back towards the state that imposes it and undermines its foundations in the end.

26 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Perhaps so, but they are no prettier than a Muslim who holds the same views.

So, before we solve our own problems, we'll import more. Great strategy.

Edited March 9, 2017 by BillyBeaver

[dialamah]

26 minutes ago, BillyBeaver said:

So, before we solve our own problems, we'll import more. Great strategy.

How would we solve the problem of the alt-right and their regressive social values?   

[BillyBeaver]

33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

How would we solve the problem of the alt-right and their regressive social values?   

haha first of all, you stop using MSM buzzwords and further dividing by labels, I don't think wanting to restrict immigration to the best of the best from around the world is regressive. You think that sanctuary cities are progressive? More of a return to feudal serfdom.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, BillyBeaver said:

haha first of all, you stop using MSM buzzwords and further dividing by labels, I don't think wanting to restrict immigration to the best of the best from around the world is regressive. You think that sanctuary cities are progressive? More of a return to feudal serfdom.

 

Was I talking about you?   I did not realize.  

[BillyBeaver]

I don't identify as alt-right. I'm not even sure what alt-right means anymore its been so conflated and overused. Kinda like nazi, and racist and xenophobe.

Labels are still divisive and counterproductive. Like me calling you a muzzy-sympathizer or regressive left. Those terms just polarize and detract from real discussion.

Edited March 9, 2017 by BillyBeaver

[dialamah]

11 minutes ago, BillyBeaver said:

I don't identify as alt-right. I'm not even sure what alt-right means anymore its been so conflated and overused. Kinda like nazi, and racist and xenophobe.

Labels are still divisive and counterproductive. Like me calling you a muzzy-sympathizer or regressive left. Those terms just polarize and detract from real discussion.

 

In another post, I linked to a couple of websites which detail alt-right beliefs, which are quite similar to fundamental Christians and Muslims - women should remain at home to have babies, men should be heterosexual (aka no gays allowed), different races should not intermarry or procreate, immigration is bad for the country, feminism is bad for society.   

If Muslims with regressive values are to be refused entry into our country, what should we do about alt-right regressive values that are already here?   Any thoughts?   

And sure, I have no problem not calling you 'alt-right'.   I didn't intend to do so initially, it seemed to me you were actually claiming that for yourself.  Sorry if I misunderstood.  

 

[BillyBeaver]

It's cool, I'm just used to ad hominems, I'm trying not to resort to them myself as often these days. I realize that Canada has had its fair share of bigotry but those are individual cases. Continued reinforcement of egalitarian values coupled with clear, enforceable laws will cause a shift. It already has. Not 20 years ago I recall gays getting "fagbashed", I haven't even heard of an incident like that that was a one-sided assault by a homophobic canadian where i live for quite awhile. You are drawing incongruent parallels though.

Theocracies create fanatics. Muslims are reinforced to be exclusive, oppressive and deceptive towards those not of their religion. None of the abrahamic religions permit the same behaviours. When you take the products of those oppressive theocracies and thrust them into our culture, of course there will be friction. 

Why not take immigrants that share your cultural values? Why isn't saudi arabia, chair of the UN council on human rights using the temporary housing of which they have capacity to hold thousands of people? Why did SA just expel 50k pakistanis? I don't want to pick up the human pieces from CIA globalists and banksters meddling in foreign governments.

[seraphim]

Since this discussion is so active, I will ask you all a few things, regarding "Islam" to see if I am "Alt Right".

1) Do you believe that the Islamic belief system should be in the public education system? If no why? If yes why?

Friday prayer for Muslim students.

 

2) Do you believe that indoctrination of a child is child abuse restricting free thought and imposing another's will?

 

3) Do you believe it is appropriate for 3% of the population to dictate to the rest of the population as to what they want regarding their beliefs?

[BillyBeaver]

1) Students should be allowed to pray if they want, provided its on their own time during breaks and what not. No safe space required. No outside religious leading or influence though. I'd like to see a mandatory faiths class where all religions (including secular atheists) and belief structures are discussed and students are encouraged to discuss their religions. It'd be a good way to get the muslims expelled for intolerance.

Faith should be private and personal, not forced upon others. Religion corrupts faith through dogmatic reinforcement of values that are often hypothetical. Organized religion is a control apparatus and hierarchy. Is it possible to be anti-religion and pro-belief/faith?

 

2) Not by my definition of indoctrination because all of our collective psyches are shaped and formed by family, religion, school, society, laws. We are all participants forced to establish value sets. Some people just like simple solutions to complex issues. As much as we absorb passively, we also choose actively.

 

3) It all depends on how much power those 3% possess. ideals are nice, but reality in an state capitalist system dictates that there will always be power discrepancies.

But on principle, no, a tiny minority should not be allowed to dominate a majority provided equal rights and status.

Edited March 9, 2017 by BillyBeaver

[seraphim]

44 minutes ago, BillyBeaver said:

1) Students should be allowed to pray if they want, provided its on their own time during breaks and what not. No safe space required. No outside religious leading or influence though. I'd like to see a mandatory faiths class where all religions (including secular atheists) and belief structures are discussed and students are encouraged to discuss their religions. It'd be a good way to get the muslims expelled for intolerance.

Faith should be private and personal, not forced upon others. Religion corrupts faith through dogmatic reinforcement of values that are often hypothetical. Organized religion is a control apparatus and hierarchy. Is it possible to be anti-religion and pro-belief/faith?

 

2) Not by my definition of indoctrination because all of our collective psyches are shaped and formed by family, religion, school, society, laws. We are all participants forced to establish value sets. Some people just like simple solutions to complex issues. As much as we absorb passively, we also choose actively.

 

3) It all depends on how much power those 3% possess. ideals are nice, but reality in an state capitalist system dictates that there will always be power discrepancies.

But on principle, no, a tiny minority should not be allowed to dominate a majority provided equal rights and status.

 

1- What age do you think children should be able to make that decision?

2-Do you think prayers in a language that no one understands except for the child and the priest (Imam) is acceptable?

3-If tradition of a particular prayer time is inciting death to the infidels, should that even occur on Public Education Property>? -- Tarek Fatah -->

Mullahs continue to pray to Allah to grant “Victory to Muslims over ‘Qawm al-Kafiroon’ (Non-Muslims)”

 

[BillyBeaver]

I would say 16, I wouldn't want to see a subject as complex as faith taken on in elementary or middle school. I don't think that younger students need permission slips to pray privately on their own time.

No imams, pastors, priests, vicars, in public schools leading prayer ever.

Of course not, it's hate speech.

 

Are you being serious with these softball questions?

[seraphim]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

Alt-right growing in Canada

Alt-right crime increases after Trump's win

Alt-right considered radical hate group

SFU Study shows increase of alt-right

 

When does one become an Alt-right in your definition?

Is it when:

People speaking out against consummated marriages at age 9? VIDEO: Aisha was 9 years of age when Muhammad consummated the marriage says top Islamic scholar

People speaking out against Imam's preaching violence and death to jews and Infidels? VIDEO: Montreal Imam says "Destroy the accursed Jews"

Is it before or after they see the first video of a homosexual put to death (tossed off of the roofs of buildings, or listening to an Imam preach no tolerance?VIDEO: Muslim Imam in Orlando called for death to gays before night club attack

Is it before they see a beheading and or rape? (not putting that up) 

When is it fair to discuss things in order to protect yourself and your family, before or after they are murdered? Are we living in a society that no longer wants to discuss things rationally and try to be pro-active, or is it that we are no longer allowed to speak about these things, but are forced to allow them to happen to us in order to appease our leaders in the name of tolerance?

 

Why do the Muslim Imam's issue orders to kill moderates that speak peace and love and safety to people such as Tarek Fatah?

I believe in being pro-active and supportive of our Muslim community by signing the petition: PETITION e-909 (Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms)

Once there is no threat of Sharia Law many will feel much safer and happier and have a happy co-existence.

 

 

 

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, seraphim said:

 

10 hours ago, dialamah said:

Alt-right growing in Canada

Alt-right crime increases after Trump's win

Alt-right considered radical hate group

SFU Study shows increase of alt-right

 

 

When does one become an Alt-right in your definition?

 

The websites in my post that you quoted are alt-right websites.   I summarized the beliefs I found on those websites, when I wrote: 

10 hours ago, dialamah said:

Men should be men and dominate women; feminism is evil - women should stay home and make babies; non-Whites are 'lesser humans'.

 

 

  

 

 

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, BillyBeaver said:

          

No, you're confusing conservative with authoritarian in the case of the two dictators. Stalin and Pol Pot are both Authoritarian Left.

Here's the political compass. Take the test.

 

Been there done that ain't buying it.  I apply the post French revolution definition to political right and left. The original political terms have far more to do with describing how power is distributed and wielded in a society than how ideology is applied.  Whichever way it leans power primarily exists for the benefit of a small circle of sycophancy and privilege. It matters not whether you're talking about capitalist CEO's and wealthy landowners or communist generals and union bosses, they're all right-wingers according to the original meaning right-wing. Why conservatives want to identify with that is their business but you can be quite certain the Pol Pot's and Pinochet's of the world would happily disappear someone like me and for the exact same reason. 

Quote

So, before we solve our own problems, we'll import more.

Ironically that's exactly what we're doing.  Our problem is that we exacerbate the reasons refugees want to flee the regions they come from in the first place. We arm dictators and cheer and often join our allies in stirring up the shit in far off lands and then dropping plane loads of misery on them.  As far as I'm concerned we deserve 10's of millions of refugees.

Quote

Great strategy.

Yes it is, and we haven't seen anything yet.

Edited March 9, 2017 by eyeball

[PIK]

20 hours ago, dialamah said:

Being sexist or racist is not illegal, acting on it in a way that harms someone else is.   And given the growing subculture of bred and born racists and sexists in Canada, its even possible to think it is a Canadian value for some people. 

Well maybe it is time to rethink multiculturalism. It seems canadians have come to the end of thier rope with all these people coming here with different attitudes and thinking. We are destroying our country and traditions.

[dialamah]

Just now, PIK said:

Well maybe it is time to rethink multiculturalism. It seems canadians have come to the end of thier rope with all these people coming here with different attitudes and thinking. We are destroying our country and traditions.

Believing that is a choice people make and one not borne out by facts or history.  All of what is said about immigrants and especially Muslims has been said about the Japanese, the Chinese, Sikhs and Hindus over the last 80 years.  Yet Canadian culture, practices and laws remain uniquely Canadians.   Immigrants adapt to Canadian culture, even if they also keep some of their traditional practices, such as Chinese New Year or Diwali.