Another example of Religion in Public Schools

[dialamah]

On 3/19/2017 at 11:25 AM, GostHacked said:

This was an easy issue to observe almost 15 years ago. There was Muslim prayer room (only group that had one) and when it was time, those individuals left their desk to go pray. While people like me continued to do the work.

Co-workers here regularly leave to smoke while I continue to do the work.   Some people also go to the bathroom more than me, again leaving me doing the work.   It's just not fair, I tell you!

Edited March 20, 2017 by dialamah

[Michael Hardner]

They should teach parables, such as the parables of the sowers in the field.

[GostHacked]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Co-workers here regularly leave to smoke while I continue to do the work.   Some people also go to the bathroom more than me, again leaving me doing the work.   It's just not fair, I tell you!

IF smokers get breaks so should I as a non-smoker, however am I granted that extra bit of time? No.

Bathroom breaks can be excessive, but could people have a medical condition? Sure. 

No one else had a prayer room.

[Michael Hardner]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+20%3A1-16

 

Sorry it's the parable of the workers in the vinyard I was remembering.  

Your boss would say: 

"‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? ¹⁴ Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. ¹⁵ Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’"

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎03‎-‎14 at 11:15 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

For those who say religion has no place in schools, how do you explain all of the Catholic School boards we elect every few years? 

To start with they are left over from a constitutional clause that allowed them and comes from a time when the majority of the country was Catholic. It continues to be so . Its a constitutional left over. Technically however its a compromise. Catholics have their schools but they can not force non Catholics to go to any Catholic prayers.

That said, your question engages in a logic that says if Catholics have public schools why shouldn't Muslims. Then so should Jews, Bahaiis, Satanists, Wiccans, on and on.

You raise a constitutional anachronism to try justify arguing Muslims should use publc schools for their prayer rituals. You however don't address  the flood gate argument you create when you start turning public areas into Muslim ones.

The fact is Catholic School boards are almost phased out and should be and doesn't make what Muslims are demanding anymore legitimate than it means favouring only Catholics. . Their school board remains in Ontario because McQuinty your darling Liberal who tried to float the idea of having Muslims opt out of family laws for Sharia law, was Catholic, his wife taught at a Catholic school and when the Conservative candidate who is now Mayor pf Toronto argued there should be no religions in schools he  lost the election on that point. Isn't it ironic though it was the Liberals not Conservatives who had the chance to phase out Catholic schools and they refused. Go ask Kathleem Wynne champion of the oppressed why that is. Secularism is a very simple argument. Like pregnancy you either are pregnant or you or not. You allow one religion in, then all the others demand equal treatment. ASs a result public schools become inundated with religious symbols and ceremonies.

We have far too many monkeys demanding bananas and the bottom line is this sense of entitlement to unlimited supplies of bananas is coming to a head.

I would also remind you this  current Liberal government, the same one that proected the Catholic school board also implemented a sex education curriculum that Muslims en masse walked out of along with other religious groups.. So how we do we explain that? We explain that as the people who walked out as feeling  Canadian society is a like going to a buffet where they get to pick and choose what suits them, and ignore the rest. Not just Muslims but all kinds of people who define themselves now as victims, minorities, special interest groups. They want their cake and to hell with the consequences it causes others.

My comments challenge any religion not just Islam as not belonging in public places.. . None of our religions in a democracy should have more equal standing than any other.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Rue

[Queenmandy85]

Rue, Brad wall is hardly a Liberal and yet in Saskatoon, out of approximately 100 schools in the city, 43 are under the Catholic School Board. It hardly a constitutional anachronism. Catholic schools are thriving. As Islam becomes a significant proportion of the population, should that not be reflected in our education system? Freedom of religion is the most important aspect of our society.

 

[Goddess]

6 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

 As Islam becomes a significant proportion of the population, should that not be reflected in our education system? Freedom of religion is the most important aspect of our society.

 

I agree with Rue.  The Catholic school system is a hold-over from another time period. It should eventually be phased out.

Why do you think Islam needs to be reflected in the school system? What parts of Islam do you feel should be a part of the school system? And Why should any religion be part of our educational system? You don't agree with secularism?

By the way, Muslims in Canada already have freedom of religion. Actually, we all do. Do religious groups now who dont have a place in the school system not have "freedom of religion" in Canada?  That has nothing to do with the school system. 

I'm unclear why you want Islam to be part of Canada's educational system. Or any other religion, quite frankly. What is the value in that? Because I see incorporating a bunch of religions into the school system as a giant step backwards, one that would cause more problems than bring any value to it.

So I guess my questions to you are:

Why do you think Islamic religion should be part of Canada's educational system?

What value would that bring to education?

Please explain why a religion needs a prominent place in the educational system of a country to exercise their right to "freedom of religion".

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Rue, Brad wall is hardly a Liberal and yet in Saskatoon, out of approximately 100 schools in the city, 43 are under the Catholic School Board. It hardly a constitutional anachronism. Catholic schools are thriving. As Islam becomes a significant proportion of the population, should that not be reflected in our education system? Freedom of religion is the most important aspect of our society.

 

It isn't the most important.  It's not even close.  Freedom from religion is far more important, as is freedom of expression, freedom of speech, due process, one person-one vote, driving on the left, etc.  In fact, I'd put freedom of religion up there with daylight savings time and roll up the rim.

[Michael Hardner]

Freedom of/from religion are deeply intertwined with each other, as Western democracies were founded on separation of church/state and freedom of religion not so long ago.

The OP confuses these two from the outset.  Schools don't (and following the Western democratic tradition - shouldn't) enforce an official religion or have compulsory prayer.  They do allow prayer clubs and provide rooms/facilities for the constitutionally guaranteed right to express one's religion.

The class of people debating these things seems to fall into one of:

1 ) Confused/muddying the issue, as in the OP

2 ) Those who argue for/defend the status-quo as the best approach

3 ) Those who blankly state that things have to change (eg. outlaw certain religions, ban all religions) without explaining how this could ever happen, and sometimes without explaining why this is a good thing.

I would be interested in a new thread that addresses the failings of Group 3).  Namely, somebody tell us what is the advantages of getting rid of religious thought, implementing controls on religious thought are and how you would ever do that.  I had a French friend who used to say "If you want religion to go away, allow complete freedom of religion."

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Freedom of/from religion are deeply intertwined with each other, as Western democracies were founded on separation of church/state and freedom of religion not so long ago.

The OP confuses these two from the outset.  Schools don't (and following the Western democratic tradition - shouldn't) enforce an official religion or have compulsory prayer.  They do allow prayer clubs and provide rooms/facilities for the constitutionally guaranteed right to express one's religion.

The class of people debating these things seems to fall into one of:

1 ) Confused/muddying the issue, as in the OP

2 ) Those who argue for/defend the status-quo as the best approach

3 ) Those who blankly state that things have to change (eg. outlaw certain religions, ban all religions) without explaining how this could ever happen, and sometimes without explaining why this is a good thing.

I would be interested in a new thread that addresses the failings of Group 3).  Namely, somebody tell us what is the advantages of getting rid of religious thought, implementing controls on religious thought are and how you would ever do that.  I had a French friend who used to say "If you want religion to go away, allow complete freedom of religion."

 

Your French friend was right, except he should have said, you want everybody dead, allow complete freedom of religion.  He was close.

 

There's a fourth group.  Those who are completely in favour of freedom of religion when a person restricts that freedom completely to themselves without any even remotely unwelcome impact on anyone else.

[Queenmandy85]

The separation of Church and State is an American concept that is seen more in the breech than the observance in that country. 

Canada is a different country. Traditionally, education was provided by the Church. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The separation of Church and State is an American concept that is seen more in the breech than the observance in that country. 

Canada is a different country. Traditionally, education was provided by the Church. 

 

It is important for the Infidel to understand his/her second class status next to Muslims. It is also important that we all submit to avoid conflict/trouble.

We don't want trouble...

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

1) you want everybody dead, allow complete freedom of religion.  

 

2) There's a fourth group.  Those who are completely in favour of freedom of religion when a person restricts that freedom completely to themselves without any even remotely unwelcome impact on anyone else.

1 ) Huh ?  I think you're mixing up complete freedom with state sponsored religion.  'freedom of religion' generally means following the Western traditions I outlined

2 ) The devil is in the details

[DogOnPorch]

Freedom of religion for Islam includes subjugating all other religions and atheists...so as long as we're "down" with that.

[Boges]

10 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Rue, Brad wall is hardly a Liberal and yet in Saskatoon, out of approximately 100 schools in the city, 43 are under the Catholic School Board. It hardly a constitutional anachronism. Catholic schools are thriving. As Islam becomes a significant proportion of the population, should that not be reflected in our education system? Freedom of religion is the most important aspect of our society.

No. 

A voucher system would be the most logical option but as mentioned, it was deemed segregationist in the 2007 Ontario Election. 

[blackbird]

20 hours ago, Rue said:

To start with they are left over from a constitutional clause that allowed them and comes from a time when the majority of the country was Catholic. It continues to be so . Its a constitutional left over. Technically however its a compromise. Catholics have their schools but they can not force non Catholics to go to any Catholic prayers.

That said, your question engages in a logic that says if Catholics have public schools why shouldn't Muslims. Then so should Jews, Bahaiis, Satanists, Wiccans, on and on.

You raise a constitutional anachronism to try justify arguing Muslims should use publc schools for their prayer rituals. You however don't address  the flood gate argument you create when you start turning public areas into Muslim ones.

The fact is Catholic School boards are almost phased out and should be and doesn't make what Muslims are demanding anymore legitimate than it means favouring only Catholics. . Their school board remains in Ontario because McQuinty your darling Liberal who tried to float the idea of having Muslims opt out of family laws for Sharia law, was Catholic, his wife taught at a Catholic school and when the Conservative candidate who is now Mayor pf Toronto argued there should be no religions in schools he  lost the election on that point. Isn't it ironic though it was the Liberals not Conservatives who had the chance to phase out Catholic schools and they refused. Go ask Kathleem Wynne champion of the oppressed why that is. Secularism is a very simple argument. Like pregnancy you either are pregnant or you or not. You allow one religion in, then all the others demand equal treatment. ASs a result public schools become inundated with religious symbols and ceremonies.

We have far too many monkeys demanding bananas and the bottom line is this sense of entitlement to unlimited supplies of bananas is coming to a head.

I would also remind you this  current Liberal government, the same one that proected the Catholic school board also implemented a sex education curriculum that Muslims en masse walked out of along with other religious groups.. So how we do we explain that? We explain that as the people who walked out as feeling  Canadian society is a like going to a buffet where they get to pick and choose what suits them, and ignore the rest. Not just Muslims but all kinds of people who define themselves now as victims, minorities, special interest groups. They want their cake and to hell with the consequences it causes others.

My comments challenge any religion not just Islam as not belonging in public places.. . None of our religions in a democracy should have more equal standing than any other.

 

 

The inherent weakness in giving special privileges to the Catholic schools in some provinces is that some other religion will make the same demands where their numbers are sufficient.  We need to find a way to change that.  No religion should receive special privileges.  I would rather religion be banned from being taught in public school.  People who want religion taught, can send their kids to private religious schools.  We could have a voucher system for everyone.

[Queenmandy85]

The only way to get rid of Catholic Schools is to amend the constitution. Since they are quite popular in Saskatchewan, and no sane politician wants to re-open the constitution, Catholic schools are safe. We are talking about a religion that oppresses women, has extremist elements that commit terrorist acts, and has traditionally subjugated other religions. So what is the difference?

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The only way to get rid of Catholic Schools is to amend the constitution. Since they are quite popular in Saskatchewan, and no sane politician wants to re-open the constitution, Catholic schools are safe. We are talking about a religion that oppresses women, has extremist elements that commit terrorist acts, and has traditionally subjugated other religions. So what is the difference?

 

A few key points...happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

The only way to get rid of Catholic Schools is to amend the constitution. 

What's your timeline for that ?

How will the opposition to such a move align itself ?

Maybe it will happen... in a century or two...

[Queenmandy85]

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

A few key points...happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

I refuse to click on unknown links for computer safety reasons. I know, too paranoid.

That being said, the terrorists I was referring to are people like Gerry Adams, Martin MacGuinnes and Bobby Sands.

The IRA are as representative of the Catholic Church as ISIS is to Islam. The "oppression " of women in the Catholic Church is the equivalent of mainstream Canadian Islam's treatment of women. 

[DogOnPorch]

Wikipedia is pretty scary...

You're free to believe the IRA did it.

[Queenmandy85]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What's your timeline for that ?

How will the opposition to such a move align itself ?

Maybe it will happen... in a century or two...

The Meech experience made amending the constitution totally impossible.

[Queenmandy85]

I forgot to mention the tens of thousands of muslims and hindus killed by each other. Religion is not the cause of mass murder. It is merely an excuse. Rawanda, Nazi Germany, Red China, and the Soviet Union are a few recent example of people getting a kick out of killing other people. The best way to combat that is to make sure children are introduced to other faiths, tribes and politics in school. So, yes, encourage muslims, Jews, Roman Catholics,Atheists, Hindus, and The One True Faith (Anglican- Canada's State Religion) to learn and Pray and learn together.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam isn't interested in getting along.

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

https://quran.com/8/39

Islam will dominate. That's the plan.

 

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

Islam isn't interested in getting along.

And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.

https://quran.com/8/39

Islam will dominate. That's the plan.

 

In the free marketplace of theology, Islam has been pretty successful. As a conservative, I have to applaud that. Compared to the Christian religion, Muslims demonstrate a remarkable devotion.