Immigration of religious fanatics

[DogOnPorch]

The Quran has a thing called Abrogation which renders earlier verses null in favour of later verses.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an

Your ignorance of the Quran does not make you an expert.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

You have reduced Islam to a hatred of Jews.  I have no clue how to respond to this. 

You reduced a genuine concern to a silly racist diatribe. You could respond like that. 

[Goddess]

14 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Yes let's be very afraid of those Muslims who are having sex with our white Canadians, having babies with our white Canadians and wait..... marrying them too!  

Pretty soon our white population will be so diluted that the light browns will take over. 

My comment had nothing to do with sex.  (??)

[Goddess]

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/proposed-‘muslim-suburb-has-quebec-politicians-in-an-uproar/ar-AAkneks?li=AAggFp5

 

 

Quote

 

“It’s not acceptable for our society to build a place reserved to religious people. Just think if we built a place reserved for white people, would that be acceptable? The answer is no.”

Even Premier Phillippe Couillard got involved.

“Discrimination goes in both directions. Inclusion goes in both directions,” he said in the Star on Tuesday. “We prefer housing diversity as much for cultural communities as for religions. It’s fundamental.”

“There must be some modesty in the way you dress. We don’t want women living there going half-naked down the streets."

 

And it begins.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Goddess

[Argus]

21 hours ago, carepov said:

Where do you find that?

In the summary.

 

Youth (ages 18 to 34). Muslim youth (who also tend to be second generation Canadians) stand out as being the most religiously observant generation in the Muslim community. They are most likely to visit mosques for prayer on a regular basis, wear the hijab, and support the right to pray in schools. Compared with older Muslims, they identify primarily as Muslim rather than as Canadian, and express a slightly weaker sense of belonging to the country.

...

Women. The experiences and opinions within the Muslim community are generally similar across genders, but a few differences are apparent. Women are much less likely than men to visit mosques for prayers, but also are more likely to identify primarily as a Muslim rather than as a Canadian, and to express a weaker sense of belonging to Canada

 

[Argus]

17 hours ago, ?Impact said:

As I already said, exploiting the environment.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is obvious not based on reality. I just checked, and 1971 was 121,900. Your recent years are completely out of touch with the possible exception of 1991 which was only about 10% above the real number of 232,802.

 The influx of immigrants after the Second World War raised the number to 33 370 by 1971.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/islam/

Also, you'll find the increases here.

1971	33,430	+5082.9%
1981	98,165	+193.6%
1991	253,265	+158.0%
2001	579,640	+128.9%
2011	1,053,945	+81.8%

[Argus]

17 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

You have reduced Islam to a hatred of Jews.  I have no clue how to respond to this. 

You reduced it to the religion of brown people.

[Argus]

17 hours ago, ?Impact said:

 

Please explain, note that Islam come from the 7th century, long before the post World War II creation of the Israeli state.

Jew hatred pre-dates Israel by many centuries.

[CITIZEN_2015]

On 11/16/2016 at 0:37 PM, Argus said:

No, they do this by sitting on a vast pool of oil, which accounts for their economic success. As for quality of life, it is legal to beat your wife in the gulf states, and you can be sent to prison for life for a few grams of marijuana. People can be whipped for consuming alcohol or imprisoned for having sex outside marriage. Homosexuality is illegal. And the foreign workers they exploit basically have no rights and can be beaten and even killed without much concern from the government. Stop trying to elevate the kind of culture, laws and values they hold to match ours. 

Unfortunately, the facts say you're wrong. 

1971 33,430 0.1% of population

1981 98,165 0.3%

1991 253,265 0.9%

2001 579,600 1.8%

2011 1,054,945 3.2%

2021 2.100,000 6.5% projected

2031 4.5,000,000 13% projected

As per title of this thread religious fanaticism is not a new concept in Canada. Harper who was elected to becoming a Prime Minister of Canada many times was a religious fanatic himself and as an evidence (and many other similar actions) he criminalized consensual sex between adults whenever money was exchanged in a manipulative dictatorial manner in 2014 in spite of expert advice against the bill (C36) and many assertions that it would jeopardize workers' lives and well being but as it is common for religious fanatics to impose their beliefs upon others he pushed it through and made it a law. So my point is that OP's attempts on this forum to represent that middle east or Muslims have a monopoly on religious fanaticism or being a threat t Canada and its values (threat to democracy is from within by people like Harper and his supporters and I am sure Muslims are not among them) or it being unCanadian is not correct and is a misrepresentation.

Also Being a Muslim does not necessarily mean being a religious fanatic since some likely most of these people at least come here so that they get away from fanaticism and lack of freedom especially those who come from oil rich countries they have no economic reason to immigrate other than getting away from religious oppression. That said the numbers above are terrifying at worse and of grave concern at best and the elected government must act NOW and respond to the will of the nation by curbing immigration and selectivity of immigrant based on Canadian values and this should not be limited only to Muslim fanatics but also other religious fanatics including orthodox Jews and Christians and Nazis and criminals and those who do not believe in equality. .

Edited November 18, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[OftenWrong]

On 2016-11-16 at 8:04 PM, WestCoastRunner said:

You have reduced Islam to a hatred of Jews.  I have no clue how to respond to this. 

It's not the skin colour or the nationality that's a problem. To paraphrase your hero Clinton, "It's the culture, stupid."

Edited November 18, 2016 by OftenWrong

[Benz]

On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎17 at 11:01 AM, Goddess said:

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/proposed-‘muslim-suburb-has-quebec-politicians-in-an-uproar/ar-AAkneks?li=AAggFp5

 

 

And it begins.

It is going to end. Either Couillard ends it, or we will end Couillard and put someone that will do the job. Couillard is very stupid but, not that much.

[betsy]

It makes you wonder....

 

...........why don't these Islamic religious immigrants go to Iran.....or Saudi Arabia....or any Islamic nations?

Edited November 21, 2016 by betsy

[carepov]

On 11/17/2016 at 0:12 PM, Argus said:

You left out the finding that Muslims consider themselves Muslims first, and Canadians second.

In the summary.

Youth (ages 18 to 34). Muslim youth (who also tend to be second generation Canadians) stand out as being the most religiously observant generation in the Muslim community. They are most likely to visit mosques for prayer on a regular basis, wear the hijab, and support the right to pray in schools. Compared with older Muslims, they identify primarily as Muslim rather than as Canadian, and express a slightly weaker sense of belonging to the country.

...

Women. The experiences and opinions within the Muslim community are generally similar across genders, but a few differences are apparent. Women are much less likely than men to visit mosques for prayers, but also are more likely to identify primarily as a Muslim rather than as a Canadian, and to express a weaker sense of belonging to Canada

I see nothing wrong with people considering themselves Muslim first and Canadian second, or almost any other identity ordering. Especially considering:

"Strong pride is the predominant sentiment across all groups, but increases east to west, young to old, low to high income, and (among immigrants) by length of time living in Canada. Canadian-born (that is, second generation) Muslims are among the most proud (91%), with this view less evident among those born in Africa (74%) and the Middle East/West Asia (75%). Strong pride is somewhat more widespread among those who identify primarily as Canadians (93%) compared with those who identify primarily as Muslim (84%), but it is the latter group that has shown the most growth since 2006 (up 17 points). This means that having a strong Muslim identity is increasingly associated with also having strong pride in being Canadian. "

 

 

[carepov]

On 11/16/2016 at 7:08 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

You're right, they added more years to qualify for citizenship, which is great.  And you're right, I'm sure Canadian-born people would fail the test, which is a shame and says a lot of the failure of our education system.  Maybe they were taught once long ago in school but forgot.  Ask an immigrant in 20 years to take the test again and they'd probably fail.

Yes, the failure to pass the tests is a sure sign of immigrants adapting to Canadian society.

On 11/16/2016 at 7:08 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada has been at war the last 15 years or so.  In fact, many people have been arrested or killed in Canada because they attacked or threatened to attack our nation from within Canada in the name of a foreign homeland or organization that we were at war with.  And many have fled or tried to flee the country to fight in foreign wars, sometimes against Canada.

a) who are we at war with?

by "many" do you mean like a few dozen (including some white Canadians)

On 11/16/2016 at 7:08 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

At a reasonable age, say 18 or 22, force a person to choose their citizenship.  I don't want citizens who want citizenship for convenience, I want citizens who wish to make Canada their home.  If you were born in Canada and grew up in Canada, maybe it's a different story, I'd have to think about it.  These are complex issues.

You are considering a different rules for different Canadians and are making a simple issue complex. Simply put: a Canadian is a Canadian.

On 11/16/2016 at 7:08 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

We could easily figure something out to deal with pensions.  I don't see how trade with another country would be affected by renouncing citizenship, unless they want to live in their former country for significant periods, in which case I don't want you to be a citizen anyways.

Having a dual citizenship gives an individual more opportunities to travel, study, work and do business abroad.  Better opportunities for individuals means better opportunities for Canada.  I really don't understand your concerns with living abroad for 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 years - what's the big deal?

On 11/16/2016 at 7:08 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

I disagree.  1 loyalty, choose your allegiance wisely.

So would you choose your family or your country?

[taxme]

On 11/15/2016 at 4:31 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Any immigrants we bring in to Canada need to follow the law. and the constitution/Charter of Rights & Freedoms, and religious rights should almost always defer to other rights and what should belong " in a free and democratic society".  So honour killings and stonings, well I don't care if they're a part of your religion they're against our other rights,.

I don't have a problem with ensuring that people who become permanent residents and Canadian Citizens swear to abide by our very basic values and putting in reasonable screening for this.  ie: If you want to turn Canada into a state run by Sharia Law then you're not welcome.

I'm absolutely welcoming of immigrants but I want them to 1) be absolutely loyal to Canada if they want to live here, and 2) make a basic effort to assimilate into Canadian culture and feel that they're a part of our national group.

I'd like to see the test for citizenship toughened.  I'd also like to see dual citizenship scrapped.  When you become a part of the nation of Canada, you should be forced to commit ultimate loyalty to Canada and renounce your former citizenship(s).  I want to know that you're loyal to Canada and Canada only.  I want to know that when sh*t hits the fan, and there's a war between Canada and your former country, you will choose to give your allegiance with Canada.  I don't want you running off to fight back home to fight or causing violence here in the name of another foreign country or group.  I once had a friend become a UK citizen when he lived there for only a short time, then a year later he got a job on the opposite end of the world and after 10 years he still never went back. He had no loyalty to the UK, and he got to keep his Canadian citizenship.  I'm sure if he was forced to give up his Canadian citizenship he would have thought a lot longer and harder and made a far more serious decision whether to become a UK citizen or not. You should have to sacrifice something to be here and show your loyalty, and leaving your crappy third world homeland to come and live in one of the richest, freest, greatest countries in the world isn't exactly much of a sacrifice.

I would also require all permanent residents to learn an official language (unless they have a cognitive or other disability that would prevent this).  You can't assimilate if you can't speak a local language.  I know a few people in Canada who are PR's who have been here for over 3 decades and still can't speak English or French, let alone read or write it.  For refugees, I would fund free ESL/FSL classes for them and give them 10 years to learn one official language and if not then goodbye.

Also, I don't see how wearing a hijab is less secular than wearing a cross around the neck or a jew wearing yamaka.  They aren't necessarily saying everyone has to wear a hijab or Islam has to be the state religion.  Niqab's I'm uncomfortable with and I don't know how I feel about them, and burkas well I'm not a fan.

I agree a lot with what you said.  But I don't agree that Canadians should be giving any new immigrant free ESL lessons. If you are going to immigrate to Canada then start learning English before you get here or if here then pay for it yourself. These new immigrants must have their own money when coming to Canada otherwise how did they get herein without having any money to carry them through until they get settled. Canadians should never have to pay for anyone immigrating to Canada with their tax dollars.

I agree that there should be no dual citizenship. Either you want to be Canadian or you do not want to be Canadian. Pick one or the other. 

I am totally against Muslims wearing their black costume outfit. To see a woman walking around the streets of Canada all covered up from head to toe is pathetic, and appears to be so not Canadian. Why people of all different faiths have to wear something religious on them every where they go is beyond me. Let them wear their whatever in their places of worship. Why advertise it. My background is Christian, but I don't wear any Christian ornament around or on my body. It could possibly save some harassment also.  

[?Impact]

20 minutes ago, taxme said:

II am totally against Muslims wearing their black costume outfit.

If I don't like the t-shirt you are wearing, or that suit and tie costume outfit, then will you comply and wear what I dictate you should? Travel around the world and see that there are different customs as to dress, I could easily say that the outfits you deem appropriate are Christian costume outfits seeing that you claim that North American society is a Christian society. Why are you forcing your religion upon me with your garments?

[taxme]

On 11/15/2016 at 4:31 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Any immigrants we bring in to Canada need to follow the law. and the constitution/Charter of Rights & Freedoms, and religious rights should almost always defer to other rights and what should belong " in a free and democratic society".  So honour killings and stonings, well I don't care if they're a part of your religion they're against our other rights,.

I don't have a problem with ensuring that people who become permanent residents and Canadian Citizens swear to abide by our very basic values and putting in reasonable screening for this.  ie: If you want to turn Canada into a state run by Sharia Law then you're not welcome.

I'm absolutely welcoming of immigrants but I want them to 1) be absolutely loyal to Canada if they want to live here, and 2) make a basic effort to assimilate into Canadian culture and feel that they're a part of our national group.

I'd like to see the test for citizenship toughened.  I'd also like to see dual citizenship scrapped.  When you become a part of the nation of Canada, you should be forced to commit ultimate loyalty to Canada and renounce your former citizenship(s).  I want to know that you're loyal to Canada and Canada only.  I want to know that when sh*t hits the fan, and there's a war between Canada and your former country, you will choose to give your allegiance with Canada.  I don't want you running off to fight back home to fight or causing violence here in the name of another foreign country or group.  I once had a friend become a UK citizen when he lived there for only a short time, then a year later he got a job on the opposite end of the world and after 10 years he still never went back. He had no loyalty to the UK, and he got to keep his Canadian citizenship.  I'm sure if he was forced to give up his Canadian citizenship he would have thought a lot longer and harder and made a far more serious decision whether to become a UK citizen or not. You should have to sacrifice something to be here and show your loyalty, and leaving your crappy third world homeland to come and live in one of the richest, freest, greatest countries in the world isn't exactly much of a sacrifice.

I would also require all permanent residents to learn an official language (unless they have a cognitive or other disability that would prevent this).  You can't assimilate if you can't speak a local language.  I know a few people in Canada who are PR's who have been here for over 3 decades and still can't speak English or French, let alone read or write it.  For refugees, I would fund free ESL/FSL classes for them and give them 10 years to learn one official language and if not then goodbye.

Also, I don't see how wearing a hijab is less secular than wearing a cross around the neck or a jew wearing yamaka.  They aren't necessarily saying everyone has to wear a hijab or Islam has to be the state religion.  Niqab's I'm uncomfortable with and I don't know how I feel about them, and burkas well I'm not a fan.

I agree a lot with what you said.  But I don't agree that Canadians should be giving any new immigrant free ESL lessons. If you are going to immigrate to Canada then start learning English before you get here or if here then pay for it yourself. These new immigrants must have their own money when coming to Canada otherwise how did they get herein without having any money to carry them through until they get settled. Canadians should never have to pay for anyone immigrating to Canada with their tax dollars.

I agree that there should be no dual citizenship. Either you want to be Canadian or you do not want to be Canadian. Pick one or the other. 

I am totally against Muslims wearing their black costume outfit. To see a woman walking around the streets of Canada all covered up from head to toe is pathetic, and appears to be so not Canadian. Why people of all different faiths have to wear something religious on them every where they go is beyond me. Let them wear their whatever in their places of worship. Why advertise it. My background is Christian, and I don't wear any Christian jewellry   

[taxme]

2 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

If I don't like the t-shirt you are wearing, or that suit and tie costume outfit, then will you comply and wear what I dictate you should? Travel around the world and see that there are different customs as to dress, I could easily say that the outfits you deem appropriate are Christian costume outfits seeing that you claim that North American society is a Christian society. Why are you forcing your religion upon me with your garments?

Maybe I am just not as politically correct and multicultural as you are? All I said was why do people of any religion have to show the world who they are, and what religion they belong too because that is what they are doing. Is it really neccasary for a woman in Canada today to be walking around on the streets in Canada wearing a black costume outfit that covers up her whole body? I mean let's get real here, it looks ridiculous. Maybe they like to dress up in a costume where they come from but they don't need to do that here. 

Just my opinion. Works for me.  

[?Impact]

2 minutes ago, taxme said:

Maybe I am just not as politically correct and multicultural as you are?

Instead of calling it politically correct or multicultural, I call it accepting of people as individuals who don't have to conform to my standards. While I haven't worn shorts outside for the past 3 days, I expect I will on Sunday/Monday when the sun returns and the temperature gets back up there to 4-5C. I am sure there are a lot of people who will think I am nuts, and some will even say so. I put them in the same category as I do you, they are unwilling to accept my differences and want to enforce their standards on others. In their case they might think there is something unhealthy about what I am doing, but that is based on their ignorance and not on reality. In your case you don't like what people are wearing because you associate it something, and can't accept that the people who made the choice to wear what they want may have a totally different reason.

[DogOnPorch]

Canada needs more Islam. Therefore Canada will get more Islam.

That includes you.

[H10]

I disagree, we must lead by example, our loving christian open ways and acceptance of all cultures will cause bad people to change their views and minds when they come here.  It is easy to say hate the infidels until the infidel is your friend.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, hernanday said:

I disagree, we must lead by example, our loving christian open ways and acceptance of all cultures will cause bad people to change their views and minds when they come here.  It is easy to say hate the infidels until the infidel is your friend.

I don't think this is working so well, certainly not in other countries.  I don't know why we are expecting  it to work in Canada when it's not working anywhere else.

[H10]

30 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I don't think this is working so well, certainly not in other countries.  I don't know why we are expecting  it to work in Canada when it's not working anywhere else.

What other countries?  Franceand netherlands where they have been treating muslims as open 2nd class citizens?

Sorry it is their own fault for terrorism.  They treat people like subhumans and drop bombs on their country and then expect to not get bombed back?

[Goddess]

Oh, okay.  France deserves all the terrorist attacks.  Got it.

[Canadianjim]

On 2016-11-15 at 0:35 PM, Argus said:

Since the powers that be keep locking up other topics which morph into this one I thought I would make one with what usually becomes the main subject of conversation anyway.

I think we can look around the world and see which countries work and which don't. The ones that work, in terms of both economic success and quality of life, nearly always have values which include tolerance and secularism. Maybe someone can think of one that doesn't, but I can't see it offhand.

Therefore, importing hundreds of thousands of people every year whose religious values are completely and violently incompatible with both secularism and tolerance is, in my opinion, culturally suicidal. These people are making up a growing percentage of the population, and thus the electorate, and there is little evidence polite Canada is shifting their views much on these basic subjects.

Take the Hasidim. They've been in Canada for generations, and in the US, as well. Their fundamentalist beliefs have not changed an iota. So why do people think other extremely religious people will? Or that their children will? http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/13/welfare-reform-not-for-the-orthodox.html

Muslim numbers have been doubling every 7-10 years as a result of high immigration and high birth rates.  In 1971 their numbers were so low they didn't even have a separate category in the census. Now there are three times more of them than Jews. Within ten years they will outnumber the native population. This despite continuing documentation which shows that, as immigrants, they have among the lowest economic success in Canada. 

The very well-known values of Islam, as stated in both their religious texts, and in the laws and expressed values of Muslim majority countries, rejects secularism and tolerance. There are about 50 Muslim majority countries, and none could be described using either term. They are also extremely misogynistic, and have a fundamental belief in the certainty of their religion, and in the need to punish those who disagree. Pew Research surveys have shown enormous support in the source countries where Canada recruits, for brutal and violent punishments for those who offend against the moral values of Islam, including execution for blaspheme, adultery, homosexuality, and apostasy supported by up to 99% of the population.

And yet, the most resistant to either shifting the source of our immigrants, or screening them for values are so-called progressives, who seem to have a naive belief that once in Canada they will abandon their eons long support for these values and Sharia law, and become polite, secular Canadians. The evidence says otherwise. The wearing of the hijab and niqab, which are a statement of Islamist dedication and a rejection of secular society, grows among Canadian Muslim women, and the children of immigrants are MORE, not less religious than their parents.

If Canada wants to endanger its peaceful secular and tolerant society, it should work to deter the immigration of religious fanatics whose value system opposes everything about that society.

 

The very fact that people want to come to a secular society is evidence against your theory. Religious fanatics don't want to live in a secular society. That is why in Canada and the US , many Christians are trying to change that since they were born here and hate secularism.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Canadianjim