Israeli War Crimes - Part 2

[taxme]

What message do you wish to deliver? That Israel should go out of business as a Jewish state? That it's time for Judaism to call it quits? For both not bloody likely.

So why do you give a crap about Israel anyway? In all my travels meeting and talking with people, no one ever brings up Israel as a topic to discuss.

[taxme]

It takes both sides for proper dialogue .... be part of the solution, of continue to be a problem.

The solution is for Israel to start becoming a citizen of the world and stop with it's attitude of I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. International laws and treaties mean didley-squat to Israel and Israel won't abide by any agreements if they don't want too. Israel has no problem violating any laws or treaties if neccasary. But you know all about that, right? It's all about Israel appears to be the problem. Indeed it takes both sides for a proper dialogue but try and get Israel to do that. An impossible task right now.

[taxme]

Israel will go away as soon as Canada goes away.

What? You don't like Canadians, the best neighbors America could ever have? When you think about all those illegal Mexicans that America gets every year, and the problems they create, you should be thankful that you do not have another country like Mexico on your northern border.That would be a double whammy for you Americans.

Edited August 23, 2016 by taxme

[Rue]

Your rant on blaming Islam for the Israeli Palestinian conflict. You mean to say even you don't read your posts?

No I am very specific on not blaming Islam but extremist Muslims and specific concepts of Islam as being the source of certain issues in conflict.

Your coming on this board to misrepresent what I said simply shows:

1-you don't read what I write;

2-feel you can respond to what I have written without reading it which is blatantly ilogical;

3-clearly read it but can't comprehend it;

4-evidence in your responses that you can only cognitively process and perveive simplistic generalizations

and then assume since you are limited to this limited cognitive processing I am too.

Run along Eye. There's more than one verb in my response.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

I would suggest stop using the word 'cancer' when talking about this. That won't help proper dialogue here either.

Thank you.

[bush_cheney2004]

What? You don't like Canadians, the best neighbors America could ever have? When you think about .....

If you mean that Canada has committed "war crimes" just like Israel, I certainly agree. Canada is the USA's closest and oldest...enemy.

[Rue]

It takes both sides for proper dialogue .... be part of the solution, of continue to be a problem.

Thank you. Let's go back to that approach can we?

I will say it again to you. There are is no wrong or right in the conflict. Both sides can't go anywhere.

The solution can come about as follows:

1. Hamas, Hezbollah, all terror cells at war with Israel right now as we speak, disarm;

2. further to 2, these terrorist cells and the Arab League of Nations, recognize Israel as a Jewish state;

3. the Palestinian Authority and all Palestinian terror cells abandon the notion that anyone descended from

Palestinians they claim were displaced from Israel in 1948 be allowed to enter Israel and be given land title and

citizenship;

4. in return for 1-3, Israel departs from 90% of the West Bank and then eventually to 1967 borders once 20 years goes

by with no terror attacks;

5. Jordan, Israel and a second Palestinian state (Jordan already is one) on the West Bank and Gaza form a

treaty regarding the sharing of electricity, water, expedited border pasage, free trade;

6.Israel in return for Palestinians giving up the notion of return to Israel, no longer pursue repatriation for over 700,000

Jews forced to flee to Israel from Arab nations;

7. Palestinians, Israelis and Jordanians work on joint university, sewage, water, electricity, energy projects.

The above in theory is possible.

I have gone back and deleted my other comments.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

If you mean that Canada has committed "war crimes" just like Israel, I certainly agree. Canada is the USA's closest and oldest...enemy.

Look we kicked your ass in a war. Get over it. Further, the only Yankees we consider the enemy are the New York Yankees.

Your enemy? Lol. 90% of our population lives in a 200 square mile strip along the US border.

We can't fight with you, our citizens spend to much time cross border shopping. Besides we already invaded and occupy huge chunks of Florida. We sent Celion Dion and countless agents in to infiltrate like the cancer we are and control Hollywood and the music industry.

We control you. Every time Celine Dion sings your people cower.

Justin Bieber has taken control of your daughters.

Its only a matter of time until the other Justin shows up for gay pride parades in San Fransisco, Providence, New York and Miami.

Resistance is futile.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rue

[Big Guy]

It takes both sides for proper dialogue .... be part of the solution, of continue to be a problem.

After seeing the last few posts do you really believe not using "cancer" to describe the slow annexation of Palestinian land would lead to "proper dialogue"? If there is a problem then it sure does not rest with Big Guy.

[Rue]

The solution is for Israel to start becoming a citizen of the world and stop with it's attitude of I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. International laws and treaties mean didley-squat to Israel and Israel won't abide by any agreements if they don't want too. Israel has no problem violating any laws or treaties if neccasary. But you know all about that, right? It's all about Israel appears to be the problem. Indeed it takes both sides for a proper dialogue but try and get Israel to do that. An impossible task right now.

Right and do you think Hamas, the PA, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP, ISIL, Al Quaeda, Fatah, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, give a flying phack about international laws and treaties?

Terrorists don't follow laws and create chaos and prevent peace not just with Israel, but France, the US, Russia, China, Belgium, Sweden, Germany, Norway, Spain, Britain, the Philippines, Indonesia, and on and on.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Rue

[Moonlight Graham]

Thank you. Let's go back to that approach can we?

I will say it again to you. There are is no wrong or right in the conflict. Both sides can't go anywhere.

The solution can come about as follows:

1. Hamas, Hezbollah, all terror cells at war with Israel right now as we speak, disarm;

2. further to 2, these terrorist cells and the Arab League of Nations, recognize Israel as a Jewish state;

3. the Palestinian Authority and all Palestinian terror cells abandon the notion that anyone descended from

Palestinians they claim were displaced from Israel in 1948 be allowed to enter Israel and be given land title and

citizenship;

4. in return for 1-3, Israel departs from 90% of the West Bank and then eventually to 1967 borders once 20 years goes

by with no terror attacks;

5. Jordan, Israel and a second Palestinian state (Jordan already is one) on the West Bank and Gaza form a

treaty regarding the sharing of electricity, water, expedited border pasage, free trade;

6.Israel in return for Palestinians giving up the notion of return to Israel, no longer pursue repatriation for over 700,000

Jews forced to flee to Israel from Arab nations;

7. Palestinians, Israelis and Jordanians work on joint university, sewage, water, electricity, energy projects.

The problem with #4 is that you could have a lone wolf, or some kind of small rebel group commit a terror attack and spoil the whole thing for all Palestinians even if 99.9% of that population genuinely supports stopping the terrorism.

[Moonlight Graham]

Right and do you think Hamas, the PA, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP, ISIL, Al Quaeda, Fatah, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, give a flying phack about international laws and treaties?

Terrorists don't follow laws and create chaos and prevent peace not just with Israel, but France, the US, Russia, China, Belgium, Sweden, Germany, Norway, Spain, Britain, the Philippines, Indonesia, and on and on.

No they don't care. But the thing is, Israel should know better. It's a liberal democracy, it's supposed to be one of "the good guys", but often doesn't act like it. I'd say the same for the US, which also constantly defies international law, though i've seen a slight improvement with Obama.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel does know better...it knows it can commit "war crimes" just like Canada or the United States...the latter doing so when not even facing existential threats.

[Big Guy]

Fortunately, there are many areas where the Israeli of annexation of Palestinian land is not accepted:

Israeli Occupation

Activists have launched an app enabling people to instantly check if a product is made by a company supporting Israel. Hope it is also available in Canada. It's a slick bit of technology created by the group behind the event, the Campaign to Boycott Supporters of Israel in Lebanon, which was founded back in 2002 and is arguably the oldest organised effort to peacefully challenge Israel's occupation of Palestine on an economic and cultural level.

[Rue]

The problem with #4 is that you could have a lone wolf, or some kind of small rebel group commit a terror attack and spoil the whole thing for all Palestinians even if 99.9% of that population genuinely supports stopping the terrorism.

Yes true. I also just made up 20 years for conversation purposes and who knows what would constitute a sufficient attack to collapse the whole thing right? I mean when the IRA disbanded they had control of their people. The real wild card is to disarm terrorists in the Middle East you'd need a group totally in control like the IRA but the fact is and its the key to understanding terrorist cell structure in the Middle East, there is no one uniform centralized control mechacnism. Each terror group is in fact a loose network of alliances of cell leaders and their alliances come and go like sand in the wind. Its hard to know who is in charge and who they are allied with. I've seen on the West bank factions of Fatah turn on each other worse then they ever did on Israel. People do not get that the conflict with Israelis is just one conflict in a sea of disputes between literally thousands of cells.

How you would unite Arab peoples is anyone's guess. No one has been able to whether it be Muhammed, other subsequent leaders and prophets,

the chieftains, etc. Nasser was the last modern leader who tried with a Pan-Arab definition very similiar if not identical to the one Jews use to define themselves as a political-national entity. Nasser tried using the common hatred of Israel as his glue but that failed to keep Syria,Iraq and Egypt together in the United Arab Republic and no nation in the Arab League of nations trusts the others. It just is what it is.

The Arab world has never been and many never be unified. I sometimes think its basic cultural characteristics that prevent unification.

I think as well, Israel would have disintegrated as a nation with disputes bewteen Tsfardic-Mitzrahi and Ashkenazi Jews had they not been forced to remain unified because of the constant threat of the Arab world against them. Its what keeps Israel unified. Israel like the Arab world is made up of many many people with different cultural beliefs. People think all Jews and Arabs are the same. That is just b.s.

The Arab world shares a language and perhaps a religion but the regional differences in political, cultural and even religious attitudes are not uniform at all and you can say the same within Israel when comparing Jews from various European, Asian, American nations.

For example the Indian Jews of Bombay are not identical to Russian Jews or Felashie Jews. It is true Indian Jews as Tsfardic in that their

people came about when Marco Polo (Jewish) came to India and Bombay, but Indian Judaism has its own unique characteristics.

When a Jordanian speaks Arabic, its far different from an Egyptian or Saudi Arabian and those accent differences bring with them

issues of disunity. A lot of Arabs find say Egyptians the way many Europeans to Germans or others do Americans-chauvenistic, loud, argumentative.

Lebanese depending on their Sunni, Shiite or Christian Maronite backgrounds don't necessarily mix with their neighbours or even themselves.

You would be hard pressed to find even in Gaza or the West Bank let alone any Arab nation, unity whether it be political, social or economic.

Arab peoples do not like centralized institutions. Even their fundamentalist mullahs may share certain beliefs, but sure as hell still disagree over

many passages in the Koran and how to read them within the same sect.

Unity in the Middle East is like trying perhaps to grab hold of jello or sand.

[Rue]

No they don't care. But the thing is, Israel should know better. It's a liberal democracy, it's supposed to be one of "the good guys", but often doesn't act like it. I'd say the same for the US, which also constantly defies international law, though i've seen a slight improvement with Obama.

O.k. I will address that because your double standard is a sort of a back handed complement saying you expect better which infers you feel let down by a group you suppose is better.

A couple of things. Take it from this Jew and most Jews-we never claim to be better than anyone morally but we sure as hell try to be moral no different than anyone else No Israel is not perfect. Of course not. No liberal democracy is when facing extremism that challenges its freedoms.

Here's the thing. The standard you expect of a liberal democracy like Israel may not be possible at all times precisely because of the context of the terrorism that surrounds it.

Israel's attempt to maintain a liberal democracy is faced with the exact same issues you now see in Europe and are coming to Canada and the US-a clash between Muslim extremism and Western liberalism and yah at times when you protect freedom from extremism, you can't always turn the other cheek or be kind and forgiving.

Take a look at France and Germany and the rest of Europe. These were countries holding Israel to a double standard when dealing with Muslim extremism and now? Now its in their back yard and not over there...now its their problem and not just a problem for Jews...well? You think as liberal democracies they do not face the same dilemmas Israel now has?

Israel has to deal with Muslims, Jews and Christians within Israeli who manifest degrees and ranges of belief ranging fron agnostic-atheist-liberal to rigid fundamentalist plus Muslim fundamentalists in Gaza, The West Bank and throughout the Arab world.

That Moonlight is a hell of an environment to try preserve democracy and certain basic fundamental freedoms are compromised when terrorism is the day to day reality.

Classic example, should you torture a terrorist to get info to prevent a further terrorist attack that will kill many?

That's the kind of issue you have to deal with and you so sure if you could save a thousand people you wouldn't zap someone's testacle to get info?

Practical reality is something hard to explain. To live with the reality of terrorism you have to witness its consequence to get a basic understanding of it and even then it still makes no real sense...but yes it means the standards you expect of Israel which would be the same standards you expect of Canada or France are not necessarily possible.

For example, you wouldn't read terrorists their rights before arresting them or ask for a warrant to search certain homes where they run into.

You see a kid you have to make a split second decision as to whether he's carrying a bomb. The old lady with a purse may be about to randomly attack someone with a knife.

Its not Canada. Its not a world where liberal democracy can necessarily be followed.

You don't have time for niceities. A simple skirmish could be a cover to draw attention away from an attack.

Moonlight the streets in most of Jerusalem are narrow and windy. Every second step is a blind spot where someone could come around the corner and throw a bomb or acid in your face.

Its hard, very hard to be liberal and democratic some days. Terrorists do what they do to raise fear in BOTH Israelis and Arabs. They want them both unstable and fearful of one another. That is their purpose-to ferment distrust, feelings of lack of control. Its a psychological war to keep Arabs and Jews distrusting one another.

That's my best answer. You may think Israel is failing and hell on this forum you get the same parrot saying the same mantra, but are they? They have over 125 human rights groups defending Arab rights. Their Supreme Court has enforced Arab rights to own land.

You don't read because its not publicized the court martials for excessive force within the IDF.

I know soldiers who died or put their lives on the line and were shot and injured because they did not want to endanger a Palestinian civilian.

You don't see that part of Israel. It does exist. Humanitarian gestures go on every day between Jews and Arabs within Israel and on the West Bank.

Its a mess some days. israel is not perfect. You put any soldier in a prolonged role as a police officer its bound to fail. Its not what they are trained for.

However to say they are not living up to a sufficient standard is not true. There are examples of failures but the technique on this board to only call out negative, is what some do in reverse about Arabs and Palestinians so say they are all terrorist.

Its wrong to say it about either people. The people are what they are. Their environment is complex. Demonizing either people is pointless.

Blaming either people for the isolated actions of extremists is illogical.

You already know that.

All I am saying is, that standard, the ideals we both believe in have not been abandon but yes they do get compromised at times.

As well the double standard, i.e., expecting more from Jews, its actually an old stereotype that comes from the Christian concept of believing Jews

are inherently evil for having killed Christ and/or being descended from Christ killers and therefore in need of redeeming themselves.

Its also a double standard that comes from concepts in the Koran that say Jews are inherently deceitful because we are descended from Issac whose mother lied and wrongfully robbed Ishmael of his right to be head of what then went on to be the Hebrews forcing Ishmael to create a parallel people.

Its at the pith and substance of Muhamed's teaching that Jews are necessarily deceitful and live on the premises of a lie.

Religion created the origins of the double standard of morality placed on Jews.

In reality we have had to live with that double standard from Muslims and Christians and considering the shit both Muslims and Christians have put us through I would say with due respect, we've come out as survivors and with nothing to apologize for.

We were at one point a violent tribe in the midst of violent tribes. We are now again a tribe in the midst of violent tribes, and no doubt anti Israelis only see Israelis as demons, but out of that country has come hope, humanity, and positive things for all peoples not just Jews as much if not more than any of its failures.

Yes it fails as all liberal democracies do because the reality is liberal democracy is an ideal to strive for, but its never an absolute state one can achieve. Its impossible to be all things to all people at all times.

Canada has proven to you its failures with aboriginals, and hey Canada invoked a War Measures Act very quickly for what history now reveals as a matter that did not require that draconian measure-it doesn't mean you call it a cancer and write off all its people.

As for the US its far from perfect but I argue its role as world policeman and preventing wars and maintaining a detente with the East counts.

Yah you can say, oh the US is imperialist. That same imperialist navy has saved millions on the high seas.

Yah the US is imperialistic over its oil but it also probably prevented three nuclear wars in the Middle East between Russia and Israel.

Excuse me if I look at the US and say their good far outweighs their failures. Yah you can point out Vietnam but I remember WW2, Korea,

and Eisenhower;s Suez Canal crisis intervention that did more for Israel and Egypt than anything Britain or France promised either Egypt or Israel.

The US was a good ally of both Egypt and Israel and that kept the peace in the ME just as China now allies with Israel and Iran at the same time to keep the peace since Obama removed the US from the picture of broker.

[Moonlight Graham]

Yes it's a very hard thing to maintain a human rights loving liberal democracy when everyone around you wants to invade or destroy you. But that really isn't an excuse to do bad things. French authorities forcing women to take off their burkini or the anti-Muslim Trump ramblings I condemn as much as continued Israeli settlement building or Netanyahu promising to never allow a 2-state solution last election.

Wrong is wrong.

To get closer to peace, you have to stop giving the side that hates you more reasons to hate you. That goes for all sides of the conflict. To have peace there needs to be 2 incredible peace-loving leaders on both sides, the likes of a Gandhi or Martin Luther King, who can really lead their people to elevated behaviour where they can inspire their own people to behave like responsible adults who can solve their problems with words and negotiations and mutual understanding and forgiveness, and not violence. And also these 2 incredible leaders will need to able to come together, trust each other, and negotiate in good faith because they'll see each other as brothers/sisters and not enemies. It will also take a lot for people on both sides to swallow their pride, admit mistakes, ask forgiveness, open your heart and extend an olive branch.

[TimG]

And also these 2 incredible leaders will need to able to come together, trust each other, and negotiate in good faith because they'll see each other as brothers/sisters and not enemies.

Leaders like that cannot exist anymore because democratic societies have become hopelessly polarized. That means that any leader unites one part of society will alienate the other. A leader who seeks to appeal to the middle will be attacked by the extremes on both ends. When was the last time a western country had a leader that was not seen as evil incarnate by the opposition? Edited August 28, 2016 by TimG

[Moonlight Graham]

Leaders like that cannot exist anymore because democratic societies have become hopelessly polarized. That means that any leader unites one part of society will alienate the other. A leader who seeks to appeal to the middle will be attacked by the extremes on both ends. When was the last time a western country had a leader that was not seen as evil incarnate by the opposition?

Half the country hated Gandhi. Half the country hated Martin Luther King. Same with Lincoln. All 3 were shot by people who hated them. They still did great things.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[eyeball]

Some might argue that it was being killed that made their greatness permanent.

[jbg]

Fortunately, there are many areas where the Israeli of annexation of Palestinian land is not accepted:

Israeli Occupation

Activists have launched an app enabling people to instantly check if a product is made by a company supporting Israel. Hope it is also available in Canada. It's a slick bit of technology created by the group behind the event, the Campaign to Boycott Supporters of Israel in Lebanon, which was founded back in 2002 and is arguably the oldest organised effort to peacefully challenge Israel's occupation of Palestine on an economic and cultural level.

There are many times in history that the aggressor in a war loses territory. Israel is about the only one expected to surrender territory gained as a result of wars repeatedly started by Arabs. And I include in that the conventional 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars, the "guerrilla warfare that occurred between those wars and the "terrorism" and "intifadas" that occurred thereafter.

In your view do you get to start (1948 and 1973 and the terrorism/guerrilla) a war or provoke one (1967) and take a mulligan?

[jbg]

Yes it's a very hard thing to maintain a human rights loving liberal democracy when everyone around you wants to invade or destroy you. But that really isn't an excuse to do bad things. French authorities forcing women to take off their burkini or the anti-Muslim Trump ramblings I condemn as much as continued Israeli settlement building or Netanyahu promising to never allow a 2-state solution last election.

Wrong is wrong.

this may be beyond the scope of this thread but being a liberal democracy cannot be a suicide pact. The Western countries of the world know by now that the insurgent forces within them, whether skinhead, Communist or Islamist will use both the ballot and the bullet to obtain their way be force. Should the liberal democracies be forced to surrender to the barbarians? I think not.

To get closer to peace, you have to stop giving the side that hates you more reasons to hate you. That goes for all sides of the conflict. To have peace there needs to be 2 incredible peace-loving leaders on both sides, the likes of a Gandhi or Martin Luther King, who can really lead their people to elevated behaviour where they can inspire their own people to behave like responsible adults who can solve their problems with words and negotiations and mutual understanding and forgiveness, and not violence. And also these 2 incredible leaders will need to able to come together, trust each other, and negotiate in good faith because they'll see each other as brothers/sisters and not enemies. It will also take a lot for people on both sides to swallow their pride, admit mistakes, ask forgiveness, open your heart and extend an olive branch.

Gandhi and King had access to a free press. Their opponents were likewise readers of a free press. How well do you think a Gandhi-like opposition to Nazi Germany or a Martin Luther King style opposition to Stalin would have worked out? How well would civil disobedience in North Korea go over?

[dre]

this may be beyond the scope of this thread but being a liberal democracy cannot be a suicide pact. The Western countries of the world know by now that the insurgent forces within them, whether skinhead, Communist or Islamist will use both the ballot and the bullet to obtain their way be force. Should the liberal democracies be forced to surrender to the barbarians? I think not.

This is just stupid hyperbole. Western countries are at a lot more risk from their own political and business classes than they are any of the groups you mention.

[jbg]

This is just stupid hyperbole. Western countries are at a lot more risk from their own political and business classes than they are any of the groups you mention.

I don't agree.

Western countries generally feature buildings and structures at an advanced level since they don't expect ready destruction in war. On the other hand there is little such building in war-torn countries such as Libya, Syria or Iraq since no one would insure such a structure. The West is not built for violent, random warfare.

[Moonlight Graham]

this may be beyond the scope of this thread but being a liberal democracy cannot be a suicide pact. The Western countries of the world know by now that the insurgent forces within them, whether skinhead, Communist or Islamist will use both the ballot and the bullet to obtain their way be force. Should the liberal democracies be forced to surrender to the barbarians? I think not.

Nothing about being a liberal democracy says you have stop defending yourself from violence (with appropriate, proportionate force). Throwing people in Gitmo or Abu Ghraib torture hells and ripping off women's burkinis isn't suicide, and also isn't what a liberal democracy is about. It's about following basic human rights and the rule of law.

Gandhi and King had access to a free press. Their opponents were likewise readers of a free press. How well do you think a Gandhi-like opposition to Nazi Germany or a Martin Luther King style opposition to Stalin would have worked out? How well would civil disobedience in North Korea go over?

I'm not saying Israel should be pacifist, I'm saying they should be committed to peace about all else, and defend themselves when absolutely necessary. Same with any other country. They should always be willing to extend an olive branch and act in good faith rather than doing inhumane, illegal things that just pisses off the Arabs even further and makes everything worse and harder to achieve peace. Arabs/Palestinians need to do the same, but someone needs to start, and I don't have much faith it would be the Arab side.

All sides also must be willing to understand each other's narratives, use empathy (different than sympathy), and compromise. You and Rue are good decent people and yet sometimes the way I see both of you talk about the conflict I just shake my head, if good people who don't even live in the region can think like this what are the chances of peace?! Instead of just chastising ie: Marcus for his remarks, calling him anti-semite etc., why not reach out your hand?

Reminds me of an old song by Creed, say what you will about the band, good song though if a bit hokey (lyrics in description)