Israeli War Crimes - Part 2

[Rue]

First off I sent out a response that may have shown pictorial images on this forum. My response only shows the web sites. I did not intend to send images.. There is a rule against images which I totally support on this forum. So I apologize to members if my response showed photos. That was unintentional. My intent was to go to the same you tube Marcus was using to continue a diatribe against Israel exploiting the image of children.

Period.

In response to Jacee, I am against torture. I am against it when the US, Israel, Hamas, the PA, anyone else use it. The cold hard fact is in the Middle East as all over the world, torture to extract information is happening. I criticize it against every one. I don't select only Israel to condemn and stay silent about th PA, Hamas, Hezbolah and each and every Arab country in the Middle East that uses it. I don't select and isolate it just to Israel to be used as a pretext, a pathetic, transparent excuse to defame and incite hatred against all Israelis which is the intent of this thread.

Torture as a means of interrogation is no better or different in principle than the very methods terrorists use.

Today however drugs can be used to extract information. So can some techniques that cause no pain at all. Getting information from people wh

do not wish to cooperate is possible,.

The IDF has been criticized for certain interrogation methods. If they involve torture I would not support them. However if torturing someone saved thousands of lives from an imminent terrorist attack requiring the terrorist have his face slapped, the reality is just that, his face will be slapped.

The cool cold reality is that while torture debases humanity and is deplorable, if its the only method left to save innocent people from dying

in that specific case only, it might be necessary.

Other then that torture of anyone is legitimate criticism. This thread interestingly Jacee has flipped and flopped about so much in desperation trying

to find a reason to piss on Israel and Israelis for being Israeli, its become the absurd attempt it is complete with the narcissistic references to Bug Guy by Big Guy.

Its also a sad world Jacee where children are most often the innocent victims but at times have lost their innocence as well and have become terrorist weapons. Its sad. Its also sad to try explain in the Middle East knowing the difference between an innocent child and a terrorist child may not be possible in the split second it may become necessary to decide which is which to save lives.

Part of the reason of using children as terrorists is because they appear innocent.

It is a common technique to put an innocent kid on a bike in a specifically targeted area and have the soldiers remove the bike, feel guilty, then the next time they see a kid with the bike not do anything and let it happen again and again until one day, that kind leaves a bomb or may be strapped to one or is checking the response time of soldiers so that someone on the other side of the fence can place a bomb before getting caught.

That was the issue being misrepresented. You want to switch it yet again Jacee to torture and interrogation techniques and simply isolate it to Israel and ignore the terrorist environment it incurs you will do so. That tactic of course exploits the ignorance of people in Canada who have no clue what it is like to live in a world where a child is used regularly as a weapon and each day is trained to become one. Its not part of the Canadian reality so the people the

few on this forum appeal to when exploiting children as victims of big bad Zionists depend on that ignorance and that is why I contest it.

I do not want to see any innocent person or child hurt. No Zionist, Israeli, Jew does but ask yourself, who comes on this forum posing children to be used as a poitical p awn to exploit hatred? Have I come on here showing you countless lists of dead Israeli children?

You won't see that. I do not use children as a political tool. I hate people who do.

[Hudson Jones]

Have I come on here showing you countless lists of dead Israeli children?

Countless? Let me help you with your counting:

The Impact of the Conflict on Children

2,134 Palestinian children and 134 Israeli children have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Source: B'Tselem Get the data

This is the reason you don't bring up dead Israeli children. Because it's very rare for them to be killed, especially since the second intifada (2004). That goes for all Israelis. Palestinians, on the otherhand continue to be murdered by Israel and you don't want anyone to talk about it. Typical Zionist dirty tactic to shut down conversation about Israel's crimes.

“The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”

- Catherine Cook

[Rue]

Hudson Jones, The example you gave omits something-it omits it was not initiated by me on a thread. It was in direct response to you and others on this forum who played the Jews kill innocent child card to show how b.s. it was. I did it in direct response to using children as pawns. I did not initiate it and unlike you and Big Guy and Marcus to name a few, I do not use it regularly. But nice try-trying to suggest I do this over and over or initiate threads or responses with it.

Next your response is interesting. First you accuse me of exploiting children on behalf of supporting Israel's right to exist, then you state I do not because less Israeli children die. That is of course a blatant misrepresentation. I have made it clear time and time again that any death of any innocent child is

a tragedy. Unlike you in your response above, I do not equate the moral value of a child's death with how many children have been killed as you do.

You use the amount of deaths as a pissing match, a football score to argue what, that the volume of death of children makes it more immoral. What crap. What drivel. One death is too many on either side and yet you still engage in this drivel this use of children's deaths as football scores to engage in a Israelis are bad diatribe. What crap. What a blatant example of exploiting the death of children for anti Israel pissing points and you just could not resist engaging in it. The need to engage in righteous anger against evil Jews, it just propels out this sputum of hatred.

You Sir remove a quote from someone from its full context. Its what you do. You provide bites. You can't complete a full thought, a full position. You are limited to a sound bite that sounds emotionally satisfying to your need to smeer all Israelis as child killers.

You accuse me of not wanting to discuss the deaths of Palestinian children. Go on start a thread. Exploit the deaths of Palestinian children. Will you in that discussion talk of how Hamas, the PA, Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations indoctrinate Palestinian children and train them to be terrorists. I did. You didn't respond and you won't the same reason you won't discuss how Palestinian terrorists raise children to be terrorists. Your handlers won't allow that now will they?

How about you "Hudson JOnes". Have you ever come on this forum and discussed the pain and suffering of Israeli Jewish children caused by Palestinian terrorists? Well? You have the audacity to get in my face and act righteous that I don't discuss Palestinian children when you won't acknowledge the right of Jewish children and refer to them as cancer because they are born in Israel and believe they have the right to live in a Jewish state free of terrorism? What a joke. What a bloody joke.

Palestinian children who are innocent are no different than Israeli children. They both have the right to grow up in peace. I have stated that time and time again on this forum and its why I challenge you. I believe you think it is acceptable to use Palestinian children as terrorists and this is why you won't discuss their being used as terrorists. I believe your reference to cancer necessarily defines all Jews of Israel as not worthy of being allowed to live.

So your pretense of caring for Palestinian children its laughable. You Sir have selective outrage and you've never seen what I have. Until you put a child's body parts in a bag and understand a kidney has no religious affiliation, a finger, a torn piece of flesh is neither Jewish or Palestinian, its just flesh, you understand nothing about children on either side.

You know nothing of the Palestinian children I know and lived side by side. You know nothing of the Israeli and Beduin children I know and lived side by side with. You know nothing of who eats in my house and shares my books and discusses their dreams and hopes of the future. You think you know.

You don't and let me assure you of one thing-before I am dead I can say-I did my best to bring Muslim and Jewish children together with Christians, Bahaiis, Buddhists, Hindus, Siekhs. I didn't come on this forum to use Palestinian children as football scores in a pissing match,

I say this to Jacee again-the death of any innocent Palestinian child flies in the face of what Zionism was intended to establish for Jews. Its a failure. Its a failure no Zionist wants. The majority of Zionists and Jews want Palestinian children free of terror and fear of both Israelis and Palestinian terrorists.

The IDF soldiers that engage in disputes which children have names and faces and unlike Palestinian terrorists they are held accountable, will be held accountable if they do wrong and I know some of them. I know they do not hate Palestinian children, they in fact fear them, not hate them. That is the

tragedy, that we get to the point where children are feared for what they might be. That is sad. Its not a badge of honour, its not some righteous browny point in a diatribe to dehumanize Palestinians or Israelis as people. Its a damn failure by both sides to protect their children from the rigid ideology of adults.

In Judaism the death of any child is a sin. So it is in Islam. So it is in all religions. How that point is beyond Hudson Jones or others in their efforts to use children as touch downs to piss on Israel I do understand and I spit on.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Rue

[jbg]

What I find most troubling about these kind of threads is their numerosity. The Jews are 1/4 of 1% of the world's population. Israel is an even smaller fraction of the world's land mass. The amount of ink spilled on this is incredible considering the minor number of Jews and the small size of the Jewish state. There is very little coverage of atrocities such as are daily events in Syria.

[marcus]

What I find most troubling about these kind of threads is their numerosity. The Jews are 1/4 of 1% of the world's population. Israel is an even smaller fraction of the world's land mass. The amount of ink spilled on this is incredible considering the minor number of Jews and the small size of the Jewish state. There is very little coverage of atrocities such as are daily events in Syria.

No one here supports Assad's atrocities. No one here supports ISIS' atrocities. However, some here support Israel's decades long atrocities against the Palestinians. That's the difference.

[eyeball]

Another big difference is that Israelis should know better.

[bush_cheney2004]

Another big difference is that Israelis should know better.

Nope...Israel is not expected to "know better" than any other nation state. Unlike Canada, United States and many other nations, at least Israel is facing real existential threats.

[GostHacked]

What I find most troubling about these kind of threads is their numerosity. The Jews are 1/4 of 1% of the world's population. Israel is an even smaller fraction of the world's land mass. The amount of ink spilled on this is incredible considering the minor number of Jews and the small size of the Jewish state. There is very little coverage of atrocities such as are daily events in Syria.

What I find troubling is the absence of certain members in certain threads calling out terrorism, but it seems as long as it is happening in Muslim dominated areas and the victims are only Muslim, no one cares.

Long thread about the stuff in France, nothing about the continual weekly mass bombings in Iraq.

[eyeball]

Nope...Israel is not expected to "know better" than any other nation state.

Yes it is, every modern democracy knows better than to behave the way too many of them do.

If they don't...ignorance is no excuse.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes it is, every modern democracy knows better than to behave the way too many of them do.

If they don't...ignorance is no excuse.

Clearly not the case, so targeting Israel reveals a larger anti-Israeli bias. Hey, let's get 'em for "war crimes" !!! But don't mention ours.

[Hudson Jones]

Clearly not the case, so targeting Israel reveals a larger anti-Israeli bias. Hey, let's get 'em for "war crimes" !!! But don't mention ours.

Our (U.S. and to a lesser extent, Canada) foreign policy has a lot of problems. No doubt. However, the way Israel treats Palestinians would NEVER be okay in U.S. and Canada. Our standards would not allow our government to treat another group of people the way Israel has been treating Palestinians. The brutal colonization, the violations of human rights and the continuation of land theft by Israel needs to end, like Apartheid South Africa did. The world cannot pretend that Israel is the victim any more. Thanks to the speed of information, the visuals we see and the fact that mainstream media no longer has a monopoly on information, will continue to accelerate the inevitable: A free Palestinian State.

[Rue]

Our (U.S. and to a lesser extent, Canada) foreign policy has a lot of problems. No doubt. However, the way Israel treats Palestinians would NEVER be okay in U.S. and Canada. Our standards would not allow our government to treat another group of people the way Israel has been treating Palestinians. The brutal colonization, the violations of human rights and the continuation of land theft by Israel needs to end, like Apartheid South Africa did. The world cannot pretend that Israel is the victim any more. Thanks to the speed of information, the visuals we see and the fact that mainstream media no longer has a monopoly on information, will continue to accelerate the inevitable: A free Palestinian State.

You again show your ignorance of Canadian history and the treatment of native Canadians. You also by using words such as "brutal colonization", "coordination of land theft", "apartheid", are hilarious. Wait don't tell me you are of "British" heritage. I mean your name is Hudson Jones. So if you aren't black, and you are the Anglo you claim, you really think your ancestry is clean and has not done what you accuse Jews of?. No skeletons in your closet. Lol.

When you respond with these buzz words to you pause to think before you pose as some morally righteous person. You even have a clue why you are compelled to talk of Jews who live in their own state the way you do? Would it ever dawn on you that the very reason you engage in the diatribes you do about Jews is because you are an elitist colonialist bigot condescending to Jews no different than your ancestors did to others?

Where the hell do you think the assumption you have to tell Jews what their place is in this universe and refer to them as cancer for not wanting to remain stateless comes from? Where does your ignorance of how Canada was created come from? Where does your belief you speak for Palestinians come from? Well?

British descent. Lol. Man you are something some days. Can you at least if you are going to pose with an Anglo name nd a superior Britishman telling the Jew his place find out how these people came to Canada and what they did. Lol. Yah yah, you have tweed jackets with elbow patches, smoke a pipe and love kippers. Indeed. Man people who pose as Bwanas and have no clue about their history are something else.

You are about as British as I am. Lol.

Regards,

Rue Batholamew Hodgkins Churchill Smith Denington Frobisher Wellington the 4th

Edited August 14, 2016 by Rue

[jbg]

Yes it is, every modern democracy knows better than to behave the way too many of them do.

If they don't...ignorance is no excuse.

Except when the modern democracy is very small and faces serious existential threats. Also in most cases Israel is attempting to find and hit actual targets. It's not Israel's fault that Hamas sets up missile launchers or the "Gaza side" of tunnels in apartment buildings, schools and other civilian areas.

[eyeball]

I would say their small size behooves Israel to try a lot harder to behave better. It's not the Palestinians fault someone parked a new country in the middle of their lands.

[bush_cheney2004]

Our (U.S. and to a lesser extent, Canada) foreign policy has a lot of problems. No doubt. However, the way Israel treats Palestinians would NEVER be okay in U.S. and Canada. Our standards would not allow our government to treat another group of people the way Israel has been treating Palestinians.....

This position ignores past and present domestic and foreign policies for both Canada and the United States. Not only was it OK, it was OK even without an existential threat for subjugation, occupation, natural resources, and "genocide". Israel has done nothing that even comes close the historical policies of Canada and the United States.

[bush_cheney2004]

I would say their small size behooves Israel to try a lot harder to behave better. It's not the Palestinians fault someone parked a new country in the middle of their lands.

Israel is only behaving the same way as new countries "parked" in North America by the same someone.

[jbg]

I would say their small size behooves Israel to try a lot harder to behave better. It's not the Palestinians fault someone parked a new country in the middle of their lands.

Have the "Palestinians" ever given Israel a safe option to stop fighting?

[Rue]

I would say their small size behooves Israel to try a lot harder to behave better. It's not the Palestinians fault someone parked a new country in the middle of their lands.

I would say your moral double standard with Israel is absurd and as nonsensical as the myth of the Palestinian kingdom occupied by Jewish colonialists.

I would say it behooves you to stop pretending Muslims were never colonialists and conquered Jewish or Christian lands.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Rue

[Rue]

Have the "Palestinians" ever given Israel a safe option to stop fighting?

Why sure. Well Ok not Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Fatah or over 300 other terror cells now in operation.

But hey, Mr. Abbas is a moderate. He's said his people should not stop until every inch of Israel is taken back from the

Jews and any amount of violence and tactic to do this is acceptable. He's a moderate according to the press so his

offer is a great one. I mean come on he's offered to recognize Israel if it ceases to exist as a Jewish state. That's

a terrific offer

[Rue]

This position ignores past and present domestic and foreign policies for both Canada and the United States. Not only was it OK, it was OK even without an existential threat for subjugation, occupation, natural resources, and "genocide". Israel has done nothing that even comes close the historical policies of Canada and the United States.

The point is as you said the selective take on fictional history on these anti Israel piss threads has to exist because if not the whole myth of the Palestinian kingdom invaded by Jewish colonialists falls apart.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Rue

[Big Guy]

The Israeli cancer continues to spread over Palestinian lands:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/08/israeli-settlement-expansion-war-mind-160815124618735.html

Israeli land grab policies continue to kill innocent Palestinians:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/killing-slowly-diabetes-palestine-160728085301648.html

And Canada stands watching.

Shame!

[Rue]

I think it only fair that since certain contributors on this forum repeat the same words, the same phrases, the same script, over and over again, an explanation be offered as to what is behind the repetition of the script and what lies beneath the literal words and I offer two basic explanations, one psychoanalytic the other from conventional psychiatric diagnosis.

The psychoanalytic explanation can be found at:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-falk-s06.htm

This article would explain the references to "shame" complete with the exclamation mark and the referencing of Jews in Israel as cancers as follows:

The process dehumanizing Israeli Jews as cancer and not differentiating them from the supposed policies of their government would be referred to as dehumanization, i.e. as the article states:

"One of the psychological processes that enabled anti-Semites such as the Nazis to murder Jews - as well as Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, and other "inferior" people - without feeling remorse, shame, guilt, or horror at their own actions was that of dehumanization and demonization. The killers had convinced themselves that the people they were killing were not human, that they were demons, monsters, or plague-bearing rats, and that they had to be exterminated so as to save the German nation, which was the Nazis' idealized mother."

I would contend the rhetoric Big Guy and others use that refers to Jews as cancer in a veiled reference to alleged Israeli state policies clearly redefines them as unworthy of life and the rhetoric depicts a fictitious Palestinian nation that can only be saved if Jews are exterminated. The term "cancer" makes the notion of wiping out or exterminating the Jews of Israel acceptable since everyone wants "cancer" wiped out.

Referring to Jews as cancer I would argue is simply an update of referring to Jews as vermin.

In this case using psychoanalysis, Palestinian becomes the idealized mother in need of saving from cancer, i.e., Jews.

The article points out how psycho-analysts Sombart and Freud believed that that the roots of anti-Semitism lies in the

" unconscious castration fear of the uncircumcised, their envy of alleged Jewish political and sexual superiority, and their interpretation of contemporary history as the rise of Jews to world domination..."

The article goes on to expain the findings of psychoanalyst Knafo who believed anti-Semitism is a psychological defense that serves various unconscious defensive purposes, often involving split-off or projected aspects of the personality.

It also states how psychoanalyst Howard Stein illustrated how "Jews " are unconsciously used as the enemy, because defining Jews as the enemy is:

"necessary for self-definition because "Jews remain the final reminder of ambiguity and uncertainty of all human boundaries, between self and other, between good and evil, between clean and unclean, between male and female, between all human distinctions."

Stein also went on to demonstrate:

that Jew-haters ... harbor deep ambivalence toward Jews, which is "played out via personal conversions and a splitting of loving and hating selves into different contexts.

The article also points out that In 2004, the French Jewish journal Pardès: Etudes et culture juive devoted a whole issue to psychoanalytic studies of contemporary anti-Semitism.

Its first article was by Lacanian analyst Guy Sapriel who:

"pointed out the striking similarities between the anti-Semites' fantasies about their fathers and their imaginary notions of the Jew. In Sapriel's view, everyone (it is not clear whether he meant to include the Jews themselves) is - at least unconsciously - anti-Semitic by virtue of his or her fantasies about their primal father.51 He asserted that anti-Semitism was "a permanent, universal phenomenon, linked to the trace of the forgotten memory of the origins of humanity."52

The article also refers to psychoanalyst Olivier Nicolle who stated that :

"the current wave of European anti-Semitism was accentuated by collective events of national, international, and even worldwide dimensions, through which it found both forms of expression and a channeling of its dynamics to a clearly visible object.63 He saw contemporary anti-Semitic slogans as the product of unconscious condensations and displacements of collective fantasy scenes. "

I would argue the need to dehumanize a Jew for choosing to be an Israeli is manifested in the above repeated words and shows the name caller of Jews defines his identity and purpose by hating Jews. Its a self identification dependent on hating something before it can exist and be said to have purpose.

The other explanation and the conventional psychiatric one would be obsessive compulsion mixed with the above inner identity conflict both cause the repetition of the same hateful words over and over.

I refer you to any mental health site and they will advise that:

1-obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) is a common, chronic and long-lasting disorder in which a person has uncontrollable, reoccurring thoughts (obsessions) and behaviors (compulsions) that he or she feels the urge to repeat over and over;

2-people with OCD may have symptoms of obsessions, compulsions, or both.

3-obsessions are repeated thoughts, urges, or mental images that cause anxiety and their common symptoms can include:

i-fear of germs or contamination
ii-unwanted forbidden or taboo thoughts involving sex, religion, and harm
iii-aggressive thoughts towards others or self
iv-having things symmetrical or in a perfect order

and I would argue as shown in the repeated rigid references to Israel;

v-fear of Jews and

vi-aggressive thoughts towards self identity as symbolized by repeat aggressive thoughts about Jews.

4-Compulsions are repetitive behaviors that a person with OCD feels the urge to do in response to an obsessive though and common compulsions can include:

i-excessive cleaning and/or handwashing
ii-ordering and arranging things in a particular, precise way
iii-repeatedly checking on things, such as repeatedly checking to see if the door is locked or that the oven is off
iv-Compulsive counting

and I would argue as manifested in the same repeat expression of "shame!" directed at Jews:

v-repeating speech patterns warning of dire consequences being committed by Jews.

5- a person with OCD generally is said to be:

i-unable to control his or her thoughts or behaviors, even when those thoughts or behaviors are recognized as excessive
ii-spends at least 1 hour a day on these thoughts or behaviors
iii-doesn’t get pleasure when performing the behaviors or rituals, but may feel brief relief from the anxiety the thoughts cause
iv-Experiences significant problems in their daily life due to these thoughts or behaviors

I think ocd is a reasonable explanation at this point coupled with the psychoanalytic explanations above for the repeat contents of the same

phraseology.

[GostHacked]

I think it only fair that since certain contributors on this forum repeat the same words, the same phrases, the same script, over and over again, an explanation be offered as to what is behind the repetition of the script and what lies beneath the literal words and I offer two basic explanations, one psychoanalytic the other from conventional psychiatric diagnosis.

....

I think ocd is a reasonable explanation at this point coupled with the psychoanalytic explanations above for the repeat contents of the same

phraseology.

Your replies seem to match your notion of OCD in terms of repeating the same thing over and over again. By that, every member on this board has OCD.

[Big Guy]

Teachers in elementary schools do a lot of repeating of words and phrases. It is considered a teaching technique.

But I congratulate our resident Zionist zealot. Now he claims that those who do not think like him are nuts.

Big Guy was just getting comfortable with being labelled anti-Semite, Jew hater, pervert and all those other wonderful attributes - now Big Guy is just NUTS!

Most people who are nuts are not responsible for their statements so I guess Big Guy has now been absolved of all those nefarious traits because he is nuts!

Not sure what that has to do with the factual and verifiable events that Big Guy is posting here and are taking place where the Israeli cancer continues to spread over Palestinian land.

Shame, shame, shame!!

Edited August 17, 2016 by Big Guy

[Big Guy]

The Israeli cancer continues to eat up Palestinian land:

Israeli Cancer:

"It's a tool of the state that is doing things on the ground, and so they confront the people on the ground," Noach said. "The problem is the policy of dispossessing people with more and more manoeuvres - to relocate them, to grab their land."

Shutting down Arab schools will show those Arabs. Maybe we should invade to allow those little girls to go to school?

Schools Closed

Time for Canada to send Israel a message and wash our hands of them!

Edited August 17, 2016 by Big Guy