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Israeli War Crimes - Part 2


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The "war crimes" will continue until further notice because:

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Oct 09, 2016 10:05 (Israel Time): A terrorist opened fire at 2 locations: one at the Ammunition Hill light rail station and one near a northern Jerusalem police station, A civilian woman and a policeman were critically injured and eventually died from their wounds. Four other are moderately injured, attacker got killed

http://www.israelhasbeenterrorattackfreefor.com/

 

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The assailant, who the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas said was a member of its organization, then drove off and was shot dead in an exchange of fire with police, she said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-violence-idUSKCN129070

 

 

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22 hours ago, marcus said:

Rue, I am not interested in debating whether the settlements are legal or not.

Goldstone? You're still trying to defend the misinformation that he withdrew his report? The fact that the report is not withdrawn and that it still stands in the UN kind of ruins that.

it's well known how difficult it is for Palestinians to purchase land and receive permits. 

To start with you have never debated a thing on this board.You don't acknowledge any  views but your own. I do love though how you claim the entire world agrees with you. Its a nice touch. It used to be just Eye, Dre, Big Guy. Hudson and Kactus, then it went to all forum members now its the world. Lol. Your answer avoids again how the illegal settlements prove a war crime.

Next you continue to play semantics. You refuse to explain what difference it makes if the UNHCR doesn't formally withdraw the Goldone report now he's  repudiated it.  Formally withdrawing the report is unnecessary. Its already been rendered obsolete. The fact I don't tow away your car that's broken down  doesn't mean the car can still run

Speaking about continuing fantasies you were given the information as to why the Israel Suporeme Court has changed the JNF mandate that proves your allegations false and  it f purchased land for Jewish Israelis in the first place.

Of course you ignore that.

By the way why do you pretend to understand land titles law on the West Bank and in Israel? You clearly have no clue as to either.

In the real world, each day Palestinians purchase land from and sell land to  Palestinians or other Muslims, Christians and Jews, on an individual basis. It happens every day,In  fact the difficulties are caused by Palestinian Authority laws  that say if a Palestinian sells land to as Jew they will be shot. You of course skipped that. You also skipped that because the PA blew up the Land Titles office to cover up their own fraudulent land titles purchases the state of land titles  is in ch ao and that has nothing to do with Israeli laws or settlers.

Palestinians don't buy land in the state of Israel outside the West Bank because they are not Israeli citizens, Muslim Israelis do..

As for contested land  on the West Bank if you actually knew what you were talking about you would know it has nothing to do with permit disputes.

Permit disputes arose and can arise  in East Jerusalem in regards to tearing down illegally built homes by both Israeli citizens and Palestinians. Both have been in violation of the same municipal laws for sewage, fire, population density issues and have had the homes torn down. Both.

You clearly don't understand municipal permit disputes go on between Israelis of all religions and their cities like in any country and just like their are permit disputes within PA controlled land between the PA and its Palestinian subjects.

You can't grasp the difference between municipal law permit disputes and sovereignty issues.

In fact Israel does claim all of East Jerusalem. And so?  The PA claims all of Israel not just East Jerusalem

For that matter Israel doesn't manage most of the West Bank or claim title to it.. It ceded local control to the PA a long time ago of the majority of land.  The land where settlements exist is on less than 6% of the West Bank and Israel already offered to withdraw from most of it in return for a pledge from he PA and Hamas to disarm and recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in pre 1967 Israel.

The PA, Hamas et al will not abandon  their stated charter goals to take back all of Israel.

So you keep playing that tune its the settlements preventing peace. Its not. Its the terrorists refusing to recognize the Jewish state and refusing to abandon terrorism that is the obstacle to peace. The settlements in the larger scheme of the conflict are an aggravating factor but not even a major factor.

The obstacle to peace is the very Muslim extremism you support that can never accept a Jew as owning land let alone having a country.

Lol, go on tell them about your beliefs and why Jews should not own land. Oh come on now. Don't be shy.
 

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On 10/19/2016 at 8:47 PM, taxme said:

To restore order to the region is for America to get the hell out of there. Leave them be and we won't need to bring into Canada 50,000 of them.

If the West weren't helping I'm sure you could imagine the humanitarian disaster.

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On 10/22/2016 at 9:25 PM, marcus said:

Rue, I am not interested in debating whether the settlements are legal or not. I am happy with what the ICJ has concluded and what the whole world accepts, including Canada and U.S. It doesn't matter how many articles you post by shills, the settlements are illegal. Israel's transfer of its people into the West Bank and East Jerusalem is a violation of international law and a war crime.

Goldstone? You're still trying to defend the misinformation that he withdrew his report? The fact that the report is not withdrawn and that it still stands in the UN kind of ruins that.

By the way, the JNF is another example of Israel's discrimination against non-Jews. Despite the song and dance and the theater that is usually put on by Zionists to force an alternate universe onto people, it's well known how difficult it is for Palestinians to purchase land and receive permits. English habitation of parts of Montreal?

Is Russian habitation of Crimea or what used to be eastern Poland legal? Turkish habitation in Cyprus?

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3 hours ago, PIK said:

Israel wants peace, Palestinians want peace, the palestinians leader ship and fellow terror groups do not want peace.

This is the most true statement yet in this thread. However I'd say the Isreali government is also not interested in peace. It would make their weapons manufacturing worth much less, right now they are making a killing (insert a Rue teehehehee) off of it.

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On 10/22/2016 at 6:25 PM, marcus said:

Rue, I am not interested in debating whether the settlements are legal or not.

Why even bother with debating things like this with people like him?

It's like trying to debate a climate change denier. 

If the ICJ, the redcross, HRW, Amnesty International and all the countries' opinion cannot change his mind, why would you think you will?

This is what it got like with DogOnPorch and I had to finally put him on ignore. I do recommend that you do the same. It's a waste of time.

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4 hours ago, PIK said:

Israel wants peace, Palestinians want peace, the palestinians leader ship and fellow terror groups do not want peace.

Yes and to be honest, there are a minority of Israelis and some Israeli politicians who don't want peace but they are a minority.

Israel has extremists. I just don't think they are in the same role leading their society as terrorists are in the Palestinian world.

I wish there was a way to get the moderates on both sides to be able to talk to one another at the grass roots level like they used to.

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Taxme in post 631 you say you are confused. Between you and me I figured you were confused already.

But hey not to worry. Let he help. What PIK said was the people of Palestine want peace but their leaders who

are terrorists don't want peace.

Now let's take it slow. Think of it as two balls not one.

One ball is red. Let's call it the people of Palestine.

The other ball is blue,. Its called the terrorist cells that run the Palestinian government.

Two balls. One red, one blue.

See there wasn't just one ball PIK was talking about. In fact he was talking about 3 balls, the red one, the blue one, and a green one which

you can call the people of Israel. He didn't mention a fourth ball, the yellow ball called the Israeli government. He could have and if you want we can now.

Now if you are sill confused go buy some skiddles.

Find a red one and that is the Palestinian people.

Find a blue one. That is the Palestinian terrorists who lead them.

Find a green one. That is the Israeli people.

Find a yellow one. That is the Israeli government.

PIK said the red and green skittles want peace but not the blue.

Now you know what's funny Taxme, if you eat them all, and wait, they all come out brown.

 

 

.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hudson Jones said:

Why even bother with debating things like this with people like him?

It's like trying to debate a climate change denier. 

If the ICJ, the redcross, HRW, Amnesty International and all the countries' opinion cannot change his mind, why would you think you will?

This is what it got like with DogOnPorch and I had to finally put him on ignore. I do recommend that you do the same. It's a waste of time.

First off he does not debate me. He avoids debating with me.

Secondly you came on this board not to discuss the issues but to bait me.

You also show you expect of others what you won't give them.

You also show you come on this board to encourage others to be close minded like you.

Debate is two way. You want to come on this board and tell people to sabotage debate and shpw disdain for others? That's your role now?

You can't handle disagreement so now you come on the thread to try hijack it and avoid dealing with the issues?

What a pathetic, petulant response.

You put Dong on the Porch on ignore? What does that have to do with the issues discussed?

Yer nothing but a passive aggressive agent trying to shut down discussion because you have no idea how to respond.

 Go on Hudson Jones  is it heep pissing upwind at the  forest fire you started. Lol. That will put it out.

.

 

 

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The following is not from the Goldstone Report -- The investigation commission was chaired by Justice Mary McGowan Davis.

The United Nations Independent Commission of Inquiry on the 2014 Gaza Conflict

Israel used over 100 one-ton bombs in the attack which destroyed 670 buildings and damaged another 1,200.

The UN report now confirms that “these methods and means employed by the [Israeli army] could not, in such a small and densely populated area, be directed at a specific military target and could not adequately distinguish between civilians and civilian objects and military objectives as required by [international humanitarian law].”

“Therefore,” the report concludes, “there are strong indications that the IDF’s [Israeli army] Shujaiya operation on 19 and 20 July was conducted in violation of the prohibition of indiscriminate attacks and may amount to a war crime.”

Ugly.

Very ugly:

Israel carried out more than 6,000 airstrikes on Gaza last summer, the report states, including “targeted attacks on residential and other buildings.”

As a result of these attacks, 142 Palestinians families “had three or more members killed in the same incident owing to the destruction of residential buildings,” for a total of at least 742 deaths, according to UN figures.

The report examines in detail 15 attacks on residential buildings in which a total of 216 people were killed, including 115 children and 50 women. Israel refused to provide any information on what made these buildings alleged military targets.

War Criminals' justifications are continuously debunked:

The report does find that “indications of possible military objectives emerged in nine of the 15 cases” of attacks on residential buildings that it examines.

But it says that “the potential targets of the attack seem to have been mostly individuals who were or who could have been present in the building that was struck, indicating that one or several individuals were the likely target and not the building itself.”

Here, the report refutes one of the major Israeli justifications for attacking homes: that someone associated with an armed group lives in one. However, the report “underlines that the mere fact of being a member of the political wing of Hamas or any other organization in Gaza, or working for the authorities … is not sufficient in and of itself to render a person a legitimate military target.”

It adds that “under international humanitarian law, a member of an armed group has to have a continuous combat function to constitute a legitimate military target.”

Even if the person were a “legitimate military target,” Israel’s method of attacking homes is disrproportionate, indiscriminate and illegal.

The investigators also consulted military experts who found that the types of US-supplied bombs Israel dropped – such as the GBU-32/MK-82 1,000 lb bomb or the GBU-31/MK-84 2,000 lb bomb – have such a wide impact that their use amounted to indiscriminate attacks.

There is more. A lot more. And in pretty much all cases, the criminals have failed to respond to this report and other previous cases. They prefer to spend their energy muddying the water and to create an alternate universe, so people stop talking about the cruel reality of how Israel does things.

8 hours ago, Hudson Jones said:

Why even bother with debating things like this with people like him?

It's like trying to debate a climate change denier. 

If the ICJ, the redcross, HRW, Amnesty International and all the countries' opinion cannot change his mind, why would you think you will?

Yes. I know. I'm not debating him though. I just like to point out the ridiculous stance that people like him take.

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Palestinians are Arab, the Arab brothers want Israel to give up and look after them, so why dont the arab brothers look after them. And while they are at it ,move them all to the real Palestine,which is jordon.

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Israelis and Palestinians are both Semites. They are cousins. So in theory the Arab and their Israeli cousins should look after each other. btw, I think you meant to say Jordan. There's no such country as 'Jordon'... 

Religion plays a major role in the Jewish way of life not just Arabs.

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5 hours ago, kactus said:

Israelis and Palestinians are both Semites. They are cousins. So in theory the Arab and their Israeli cousins should look after each other. btw, I think you meant to say Jordan. There's no such country as 'Jordon'... 

Religion plays a major role in the Jewish way of life not just Arabs.

Yah it does for some. I think you'll find though more religious Muslims in Muslim countries than you would Jews in Israel. I think you'd be surprised how many

Israelis are not conventionally Jewish as per the religion but identify as Jews as a national identity not a religious one. That said religion and nationality call them what you want they all play their role in being used to encourage and incite hatred on both sides. No side has a monopoly with stupidity and stubbornness.

You call them cousins I would go so far as to say brothers/sisters. They are we both know the same people divided by religion and then political national issues.

I velieve Weizman and Faisal would have created two kingdoms side by side that would have managed just fine with Israel remaining basically a Jewish protectorate state within a greater Arab world much like  Liehenstein or Monaco or Andora in Europe-a Jewish principality that would have allowed Jews a safe haven and  land but within the greter Arab context to still be considered co-Arab. It never happened. It never happened because the French and British sabotaged it for the Picot Agreement and the age old exercise of dividing and conquering by fanning the flames between tribes.

They knew  Jewish-Arab alliance would have undermined the need for British or French help and they saw to destroying that alliance. The Arabs were manipulated by the British, French, Nazi Germans, then Russians, Americans and Chinese. They've never missed an opportunity to be manipulated and turn not just on Jews but their own people.

There's never been a shortage of megalomaniac Arab leaders willing to be propped into power by the foreign powers only to turn on these powers when they think they got too big only then to be taken out by those same foreign powers. Ghaddafi, Nasser, Hussein, Assad, just one puppet after another taking bribes and ruling by brute military force and corruption.

Israel has had its share of corrupt politicians but for the most part its military hasn't ruled the country because its Generals retire at a relatively young age and run for government. The reality is though Israel has been at war since 1948 and no politician can survive in Israel unless they have military training. The one Prime Minister who did not mandhandled an air war in Lebanon and was arrested for corruption. General Sharon go into bed with some very corrupt local politicians.

Democracy, having open and accountable governments that can get caught and be held responsible for corruption has transpired in the West and in Israel with Olmert the former Prime Minister but corruption at the best of times seems to get into the best of governments as well as the worst of governments and it often causes obstacles to peace.

There's been questionable land deals by both Israelis and Palestinians that have nothing to do with the conflict and everything to do with plain old fashioned greed.

All that said, there will be peace one day despite those who want Israel wiped off the map or who think Muslims will never stop being terrorists.

 

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19 hours ago, Rue said:

Yah it does for some. I think you'll find though more religious Muslims in Muslim countries than you would Jews in Israel. I think you'd be surprised how many

Israelis are not conventionally Jewish as per the religion but identify as Jews as a national identity not a religious one. That said religion and nationality call them what you want they all play their role in being used to encourage and incite hatred on both sides. No side has a monopoly with stupidity and stubbornness.

You call them cousins I would go so far as to say brothers/sisters. They are we both know the same people divided by religion and then political national issues.

I velieve Weizman and Faisal would have created two kingdoms side by side that would have managed just fine with Israel remaining basically a Jewish protectorate state within a greater Arab world much like  Liehenstein or Monaco or Andora in Europe-a Jewish principality that would have allowed Jews a safe haven and  land but within the greter Arab context to still be considered co-Arab. It never happened. It never happened because the French and British sabotaged it for the Picot Agreement and the age old exercise of dividing and conquering by fanning the flames between tribes.

They knew  Jewish-Arab alliance would have undermined the need for British or French help and they saw to destroying that alliance. The Arabs were manipulated by the British, French, Nazi Germans, then Russians, Americans and Chinese. They've never missed an opportunity to be manipulated and turn not just on Jews but their own people.

There's never been a shortage of megalomaniac Arab leaders willing to be propped into power by the foreign powers only to turn on these powers when they think they got too big only then to be taken out by those same foreign powers. Ghaddafi, Nasser, Hussein, Assad, just one puppet after another taking bribes and ruling by brute military force and corruption.

Israel has had its share of corrupt politicians but for the most part its military hasn't ruled the country because its Generals retire at a relatively young age and run for government. The reality is though Israel has been at war since 1948 and no politician can survive in Israel unless they have military training. The one Prime Minister who did not mandhandled an air war in Lebanon and was arrested for corruption. General Sharon go into bed with some very corrupt local politicians.

Democracy, having open and accountable governments that can get caught and be held responsible for corruption has transpired in the West and in Israel with Olmert the former Prime Minister but corruption at the best of times seems to get into the best of governments as well as the worst of governments and it often causes obstacles to peace.

There's been questionable land deals by both Israelis and Palestinians that have nothing to do with the conflict and everything to do with plain old fashioned greed.

All that said, there will be peace one day despite those who want Israel wiped off the map or who think Muslims will never stop being terrorists.

 

Agree with a lot of that.

Unfortunately, what's missing is admitting and accepting one of the biggest reasons that there is a conflict: Colonialism and the treatment of Palestinians by the European Jewish settlers. Blaming it on everyone else is not an honest way to approach this and will not help solve the conflict.

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2 hours ago, marcus said:

Agree with a lot of that.

Unfortunately, what's missing is admitting and accepting one of the biggest reasons that there is a conflict: Colonialism and the treatment of Palestinians by the European Jewish settlers. Blaming it on everyone else is not an honest way to approach this and will not help solve the conflict.

Blaming it on Jewish immigrants is not an honest way to approach it either. In your selective take everything is the fault of Jewish immigrants but you also deny the right of Jews born in Israel since 1948 their right to exist in Jewisg state while you have zero issue with Jordan being created as a Jewish free state for Muslim Palestinians.

However Marcus I will say this to you. You completely disagree with what I say but always take the time to respond. Me too in reverse. Thank you for at least doing that. I do not expect you to agree with a damn thing but at least you respond each and every time. I do as well. We may bat heads but at least we make an effort to respond.

 

 

 

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On 25/10/2016 at 11:13 PM, Rue said:

Yah it does for some. I think you'll find though more religious Muslims in Muslim countries than you would Jews in Israel. I think you'd be surprised how many

Israelis are not conventionally Jewish as per the religion but identify as Jews as a national identity not a religious one. That said religion and nationality call them what you want they all play their role in being used to encourage and incite hatred on both sides. No side has a monopoly with stupidity and stubbornness.

You call them cousins I would go so far as to say brothers/sisters. They are we both know the same people divided by religion and then political national issues.

I velieve Weizman and Faisal would have created two kingdoms side by side that would have managed just fine with Israel remaining basically a Jewish protectorate state within a greater Arab world much like  Liehenstein or Monaco or Andora in Europe-a Jewish principality that would have allowed Jews a safe haven and  land but within the greter Arab context to still be considered co-Arab. It never happened. It never happened because the French and British sabotaged it for the Picot Agreement and the age old exercise of dividing and conquering by fanning the flames between tribes.

They knew  Jewish-Arab alliance would have undermined the need for British or French help and they saw to destroying that alliance. The Arabs were manipulated by the British, French, Nazi Germans, then Russians, Americans and Chinese. They've never missed an opportunity to be manipulated and turn not just on Jews but their own people.

There's never been a shortage of megalomaniac Arab leaders willing to be propped into power by the foreign powers only to turn on these powers when they think they got too big only then to be taken out by those same foreign powers. Ghaddafi, Nasser, Hussein, Assad, just one puppet after another taking bribes and ruling by brute military force and corruption.

Israel has had its share of corrupt politicians but for the most part its military hasn't ruled the country because its Generals retire at a relatively young age and run for government. The reality is though Israel has been at war since 1948 and no politician can survive in Israel unless they have military training. The one Prime Minister who did not mandhandled an air war in Lebanon and was arrested for corruption. General Sharon go into bed with some very corrupt local politicians.

Democracy, having open and accountable governments that can get caught and be held responsible for corruption has transpired in the West and in Israel with Olmert the former Prime Minister but corruption at the best of times seems to get into the best of governments as well as the worst of governments and it often causes obstacles to peace.

There's been questionable land deals by both Israelis and Palestinians that have nothing to do with the conflict and everything to do with plain old fashioned greed.

All that said, there will be peace one day despite those who want Israel wiped off the map or who think Muslims will never stop being terrorists.

 

I don't agree with your sentiment that the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis has nothing to do with the issue of land. You say it has to do with greed. Today when I look at the the map of what used to be Palestine there is not much left of it....It has been taken from them gradually by the Israeli over time. IMO when you try to reduce the ownership of their land it does indeed play in the psyche of every Palestinian.

To me the illegal expansion of settlements in occupied territories is greed and corruption has played every part in the politics.

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4 hours ago, kactus said:

I don't agree with your sentiment that the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis has nothing to do with the issue of land. You say it has to do with greed. Today when I look at the the map of what used to be Palestine there is not much left of it....It has been taken from them gradually by the Israeli over time. IMO when you try to reduce the ownership of their land it does indeed play in the psyche of every Palestinian.

To me the illegal expansion of settlements in occupied territories is greed and corruption has played every part in the politics.

I didn't say it has nothing to do with the issue of land. dispute over land is the pivotal issue. Its the underlying causeses of why people dispute land title I was refering to and there are multiple levels of legal issues, international, federal, municipal, Canon (Roman Catholic), Sharia,  miilitary, which all have different methods of law of defining who owns ir can control land..

On this particular thread there's never been any discussion on the differences in la and why those differences actually make solving land titles disputes difficult.

That said, I do acknowledge certain land now under the control of Israeli settlers, Palestinians feel was unfairly purchased. There's two different issues. One is land that was purchased by Israeli settlers the Palestinians question, the other is land not owned by any Israeli through land title, controlled by the PA locally, which they feel is still occupied on a federal level by Israel through its military occupation,

In regards to individual land titles purchased by Israelis whether they be individuals or corporate entities, that's one set of laws. In regards to control or sovereignty over the entire West Bank, that's another. The two are not necessarily the same although definitely inter-connected.

Right now there is no legal system of land titles cerification on the West Bank because the PA blew it up. It means two things. It could mean some land purchased by Israelis from Palestinians may be or may not be legal. It could also mean some land purchased by Palestinians from other Palestinians or Israelis may be or may not be legal. That local level private titles ownership issue requires a land titles system and one just does not exist right now. On a higher level, the acttual question over who has sovereignty of the West Bank is a moot point.

The Israelis have already 3 times stated they would recognize a Palestinian state on the West Bank-what's holding that up is terrorism. Israel is not going to withdraw to 1967 borders if the PA and Hamas don't recognize its right to live peacefully as a Jewish state and retain their charters and open admissions they are at war with Israel to take it all back,

Next on an individual land titles basis, if a West Bank nation came about under Sharia law, it would not recognize existing legitimate land title rights of Christians, and in particular not just individual Palestinian Christians with private homes, but the many churches and their surrounding land. It would also not recognize any land title of not just Jewish settlers, but the 300,000 ultra orthodox Jews living on the West Bank, i.e., around Hebron, who do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state because they believe the Messiah must return first before Israel can be created and so consider Israel to be an abomination for not waiting for the messiah first.

Those Jews would lose their land titles  under Sharia law. Confiscation of private land titles of these two groups for example would trigger major legal complications having nothing to do with Israel. Likewise the PA has threatened to take many land titles away from Palestinian Muslims once their nation is created due to land title disputes over land the PA has unilaterally claimed as its own much like Hamas did in Gaza. Both Hamas and the PA have seized unilaterally land from Palestinians and given them to their own upper echelon members.

Now while all this is happening the IDF patrols on the West Bank but not inside Gaza. In regards to its patrols because of the numerous road side checks, those checks delay not just Palestinians but Israelis. They inconvenience everyone. They are a visual reminder to Palestinians that they feel means they are under the enemy's occupation. the Israeli settlers have 3 components. One component were poor Israelis who were given tax incentives to move to the West Bank and went for that reason not ideology. They are reluctant. They are just like Palestinians caught up in a shrinking world trying to find somewhere to live. Then there is another component of those ultra orthodox Jews I mentioned, and then another third of what we call intentional Jewish settlers, those who believe it is their right under international law and under Jewish law to live in Judea and Somaria and they have legal rights the UN has not excluded because the UN has not commented on their arguments yet as they have never been raised in court. Of that third component, there is a component of that, say for arguments sake approximately 20,000 Jewish settlers of 900,000 for want of a better number because its smaller, that are volatile and very extremist and if asked to leave by Israel will put up a fight. From them came an extremist who killed Yitzhak Rabin.

The bottom line is Israel already stated it was prepared if it was recognized as a Jewish state and terrorists disarmed no different than what the IRA agreed to, to get peace, it would withdraw to less h an 2% of the West Bank for security reasons but eventually allow Palestinians free passage through Israel and use of its ports and airports in an economic common market.

Israel already offered with Jordan as well to do this and share water, electricity and energy grid and pipelines as well as mutual border crossings for Palestinians to work in Israel and Jordan. Its Hamas and the PA who have rejected that demanding all of Jordan and Israel be given back tot hem.

Now you can claim land disputes, but the reality is if there were no terrorists and Israel was recognized as a Jewish state, the land disputes would prove an issue, but would be settled, They can't even get touched as long as a state of war exists. That is my point. That is a point anti Israelis on this board will not acknowledge. The position is to maintain that anything wrong is because Israel won't give land back. No its because Israel exists and Hamas and the PA won;t accept its existence just as under its sharia law, it doesn't acknowledge any non Muslim land titles.

Now you want to portray Israel as evil, knock yourself out. There's zero credibility doing that, if you ignore the IDF reacts to attacks it doesn't initiate them.

If you want to pretend it operates in a vacuum and for no reason kills Palestinians be my guest. That's the fantasy script that pretends Israelis are European colonialists when in fact they escaped from European colonialism and in fact the Arab nations fighting them were corrupt colonial puppets and still are whether it be puppets of China, Russia, the EU or the US.

Pretending Israel and the US are the only enemies and colonial oppressors of the Middle East is anoher fantasy,. The two biggest oppressors of the Middle East are Saudi Arabia and Iran who finance all its terrorist groups and corrupt regimes.

Blaming the US or Israel for the Arab world's inability to get along with itself is crap. The Arab world has been in a continuous civil war for over 3,000 years as alleged colonial regimes like Rome, the Ottoman Empire, the West, Russia, China, come and go.

One last thing unlike you I recognize two equal parties, one Israeli one Palestinian. I do not preach one set of rights for Palestinians another for Israel. I preach the exact same rights. I do not argue Palestinians should not have a second nation on the West Bank in addition to Jordan. I just think its improbable at this time and as long as Abbas is alive, the PA does not rid itself of its interanl corruption and Hamas steps down from the path of violence it chose.

I know Palestinians. I worked with them building ditches, homes, roads, pruning trees. They had no problem with me or vice versa. The disputes are imported by power elites for power elite selfish reasons.

Arafat was no liberator. He ran drug caravans. He ran heroin and hash hish caravans from Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan. Syria, into Marseilles, France with full protection of La Deuxieme Bureau, France's equivalent to the CIA. He made himself fat on drug sales. Arafat was a Western puppet. In exchange for being allowed to run his drugs, he used his cross border system of bribery to make sure French, German, British business interests were unhindered. His wife was a beard. Arafat was a homosexual living a double life and his thick Egyptian accent and homosexuality was something Palestinians never accepted. They tried marrying him off. It didn't work, It fooled no one. Palestinians hated him. They turned to Hamas because of that. They looked for a non corrupt organization which Hamas was. Hamas was in those days not only without corruption but vehemently opposed violence. That Hamas was wiped out and replace dby a cell from Syria controlled by Assad that hated the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Assad in those days was supported by Saudi Arabia who always hated the Muslim Brotherhood since the Brotherhood wants to abolish the puppet monarchy system in Arab countries.

Ironically he Hamas Assad and Saudi Arabia (indirectly) assisted come to power and embraced violence blew up the infrastructure of Gaza as a warning to Gaza citizens never to work with Israelis. Ir refuses to put one penny of foreign aid into infrastructure to this day As we speak not one penny is rebuilding anything but tunnels. This Hamas, was the one embraced by Obama but hates Obama as much as it now does Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel. The problem is Hamas is Sunni and can't hitch its wagon to Syria or protection because that means coming under the Russian network and Hamas hates Putin as much as it does Obama.

Hamas is a very bizarre organization. It preaches all out to the death violence and war against Israel while its leader's wife, brother and children were sent to Israeli hospitals for care. The Middle East is a world of insanity where alliances and relationships come and go.

Hamas and the PA hate each other. Hamas and the PA and Hezbollah all hate each other. There are over 300 Palestinian terror cells each with their own leader roughly held together in an informal alliance. Its hard to know who is allied with who on any given day.

This is the world of the Middle East where there are literally thousands of cells, each with a leader. Each day these cells form temporary alliances that come an  go with the wind. Israel and issues to do with Israel are one sub-issue of thousands of issues of conflict.

In the Arab world factional disputes can be over religion,land, oil, power, amily feuds that have gone on for thousands of years.

The experts on this board have never spoken to an Arab or lived in their world. Some of us have. We don't see it as a land dispute as much as we do an on-going tribal war that never seems to  end. When I say tribal I do not mean it in a derogatory way either but I do mean tribes in an ancient way-klans, families, villages.

For me Palestinians and Israelis are just two of thousands of tribes caught up in ancient conflicts. To move past that will require changing the dialogue from simply blaming everything on Jews and Israelis  for that matter Muslims or Palestinians or anyone else. Its about corrupt politicians, terrorists, and the practical real world of international corporations trying to contain markets for lithium, oil, natural gas, magnesium, phosphates, etc

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23 hours ago, Rue said:

I didn't say it has nothing to do with the issue of land. dispute over land is the pivotal issue. Its the underlying causeses of why people dispute land title I was refering to and there are multiple levels of legal issues, international, federal, municipal, Canon (Roman Catholic), Sharia,  miilitary, which all have different methods of law of defining who owns ir can control land..

On this particular thread there's never been any discussion on the differences in la and why those differences actually make solving land titles disputes difficult.

That said, I do acknowledge certain land now under the control of Israeli settlers, Palestinians feel was unfairly purchased. There's two different issues. One is land that was purchased by Israeli settlers the Palestinians question, the other is land not owned by any Israeli through land title, controlled by the PA locally, which they feel is still occupied on a federal level by Israel through its military occupation,

In regards to individual land titles purchased by Israelis whether they be individuals or corporate entities, that's one set of laws. In regards to control or sovereignty over the entire West Bank, that's another. The two are not necessarily the same although definitely inter-connected.

Right now there is no legal system of land titles cerification on the West Bank because the PA blew it up. It means two things. It could mean some land purchased by Israelis from Palestinians may be or may not be legal. It could also mean some land purchased by Palestinians from other Palestinians or Israelis may be or may not be legal. That local level private titles ownership issue requires a land titles system and one just does not exist right now. On a higher level, the acttual question over who has sovereignty of the West Bank is a moot point.

The Israelis have already 3 times stated they would recognize a Palestinian state on the West Bank-what's holding that up is terrorism. Israel is not going to withdraw to 1967 borders if the PA and Hamas don't recognize its right to live peacefully as a Jewish state and retain their charters and open admissions they are at war with Israel to take it all back,

Next on an individual land titles basis, if a West Bank nation came about under Sharia law, it would not recognize existing legitimate land title rights of Christians, and in particular not just individual Palestinian Christians with private homes, but the many churches and their surrounding land. It would also not recognize any land title of not just Jewish settlers, but the 300,000 ultra orthodox Jews living on the West Bank, i.e., around Hebron, who do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state because they believe the Messiah must return first before Israel can be created and so consider Israel to be an abomination for not waiting for the messiah first.

Those Jews would lose their land titles  under Sharia law. Confiscation of private land titles of these two groups for example would trigger major legal complications having nothing to do with Israel. Likewise the PA has threatened to take many land titles away from Palestinian Muslims once their nation is created due to land title disputes over land the PA has unilaterally claimed as its own much like Hamas did in Gaza. Both Hamas and the PA have seized unilaterally land from Palestinians and given them to their own upper echelon members.

Now while all this is happening the IDF patrols on the West Bank but not inside Gaza. In regards to its patrols because of the numerous road side checks, those checks delay not just Palestinians but Israelis. They inconvenience everyone. They are a visual reminder to Palestinians that they feel means they are under the enemy's occupation. the Israeli settlers have 3 components. One component were poor Israelis who were given tax incentives to move to the West Bank and went for that reason not ideology. They are reluctant. They are just like Palestinians caught up in a shrinking world trying to find somewhere to live. Then there is another component of those ultra orthodox Jews I mentioned, and then another third of what we call intentional Jewish settlers, those who believe it is their right under international law and under Jewish law to live in Judea and Somaria and they have legal rights the UN has not excluded because the UN has not commented on their arguments yet as they have never been raised in court. Of that third component, there is a component of that, say for arguments sake approximately 20,000 Jewish settlers of 900,000 for want of a better number because its smaller, that are volatile and very extremist and if asked to leave by Israel will put up a fight. From them came an extremist who killed Yitzhak Rabin.

The bottom line is Israel already stated it was prepared if it was recognized as a Jewish state and terrorists disarmed no different than what the IRA agreed to, to get peace, it would withdraw to less h an 2% of the West Bank for security reasons but eventually allow Palestinians free passage through Israel and use of its ports and airports in an economic common market.

Israel already offered with Jordan as well to do this and share water, electricity and energy grid and pipelines as well as mutual border crossings for Palestinians to work in Israel and Jordan. Its Hamas and the PA who have rejected that demanding all of Jordan and Israel be given back tot hem.

Now you can claim land disputes, but the reality is if there were no terrorists and Israel was recognized as a Jewish state, the land disputes would prove an issue, but would be settled, They can't even get touched as long as a state of war exists. That is my point. That is a point anti Israelis on this board will not acknowledge. The position is to maintain that anything wrong is because Israel won't give land back. No its because Israel exists and Hamas and the PA won;t accept its existence just as under its sharia law, it doesn't acknowledge any non Muslim land titles.

Now you want to portray Israel as evil, knock yourself out. There's zero credibility doing that, if you ignore the IDF reacts to attacks it doesn't initiate them.

If you want to pretend it operates in a vacuum and for no reason kills Palestinians be my guest. That's the fantasy script that pretends Israelis are European colonialists when in fact they escaped from European colonialism and in fact the Arab nations fighting them were corrupt colonial puppets and still are whether it be puppets of China, Russia, the EU or the US.

Pretending Israel and the US are the only enemies and colonial oppressors of the Middle East is anoher fantasy,. The two biggest oppressors of the Middle East are Saudi Arabia and Iran who finance all its terrorist groups and corrupt regimes.

Blaming the US or Israel for the Arab world's inability to get along with itself is crap. The Arab world has been in a continuous civil war for over 3,000 years as alleged colonial regimes like Rome, the Ottoman Empire, the West, Russia, China, come and go.

One last thing unlike you I recognize two equal parties, one Israeli one Palestinian. I do not preach one set of rights for Palestinians another for Israel. I preach the exact same rights. I do not argue Palestinians should not have a second nation on the West Bank in addition to Jordan. I just think its improbable at this time and as long as Abbas is alive, the PA does not rid itself of its interanl corruption and Hamas steps down from the path of violence it chose.

I know Palestinians. I worked with them building ditches, homes, roads, pruning trees. They had no problem with me or vice versa. The disputes are imported by power elites for power elite selfish reasons.

Arafat was no liberator. He ran drug caravans. He ran heroin and hash hish caravans from Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan. Syria, into Marseilles, France with full protection of La Deuxieme Bureau, France's equivalent to the CIA. He made himself fat on drug sales. Arafat was a Western puppet. In exchange for being allowed to run his drugs, he used his cross border system of bribery to make sure French, German, British business interests were unhindered. His wife was a beard. Arafat was a homosexual living a double life and his thick Egyptian accent and homosexuality was something Palestinians never accepted. They tried marrying him off. It didn't work, It fooled no one. Palestinians hated him. They turned to Hamas because of that. They looked for a non corrupt organization which Hamas was. Hamas was in those days not only without corruption but vehemently opposed violence. That Hamas was wiped out and replace dby a cell from Syria controlled by Assad that hated the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Assad in those days was supported by Saudi Arabia who always hated the Muslim Brotherhood since the Brotherhood wants to abolish the puppet monarchy system in Arab countries.

Ironically he Hamas Assad and Saudi Arabia (indirectly) assisted come to power and embraced violence blew up the infrastructure of Gaza as a warning to Gaza citizens never to work with Israelis. Ir refuses to put one penny of foreign aid into infrastructure to this day As we speak not one penny is rebuilding anything but tunnels. This Hamas, was the one embraced by Obama but hates Obama as much as it now does Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Israel. The problem is Hamas is Sunni and can't hitch its wagon to Syria or protection because that means coming under the Russian network and Hamas hates Putin as much as it does Obama.

Hamas is a very bizarre organization. It preaches all out to the death violence and war against Israel while its leader's wife, brother and children were sent to Israeli hospitals for care. The Middle East is a world of insanity where alliances and relationships come and go.

Hamas and the PA hate each other. Hamas and the PA and Hezbollah all hate each other. There are over 300 Palestinian terror cells each with their own leader roughly held together in an informal alliance. Its hard to know who is allied with who on any given day.

This is the world of the Middle East where there are literally thousands of cells, each with a leader. Each day these cells form temporary alliances that come an  go with the wind. Israel and issues to do with Israel are one sub-issue of thousands of issues of conflict.

In the Arab world factional disputes can be over religion,land, oil, power, amily feuds that have gone on for thousands of years.

The experts on this board have never spoken to an Arab or lived in their world. Some of us have. We don't see it as a land dispute as much as we do an on-going tribal war that never seems to  end. When I say tribal I do not mean it in a derogatory way either but I do mean tribes in an ancient way-klans, families, villages.

For me Palestinians and Israelis are just two of thousands of tribes caught up in ancient conflicts. To move past that will require changing the dialogue from simply blaming everything on Jews and Israelis  for that matter Muslims or Palestinians or anyone else. Its about corrupt politicians, terrorists, and the practical real world of international corporations trying to contain markets for lithium, oil, natural gas, magnesium, phosphates, etc

Thanks for clarification.

My point of contention was and still remains with Bibi's policies and Israel's illegal settlements in occupied territories thereby depriving the palestinians of their own land...

Ararbs equally have their fair share of blame but to denounce anyone (including yourself that constantlWho disagrees with you  "anti-semitic" is disinginuous to say the least.

Considering the mess in that region how do you propose a peace solution between Israel and Palestine without the US intervention? Also, It is easy to take the opportunistic approach and blame the arabs and terrorist organisations but you gotta admit that there has to be adjustments to the level of corruptions in you own government and foreign policies....

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6 hours ago, kactus said:

Thanks for clarification.

My point of contention was and still remains with Bibi's policies and Israel's illegal settlements in occupied territories thereby depriving the palestinians of their own land...

Ararbs equally have their fair share of blame but to denounce anyone (including yourself that constantlWho disagrees with you  "anti-semitic" is disinginuous to say the least.

Considering the mess in that region how do you propose a peace solution between Israel and Palestine without the US intervention? Also, It is easy to take the opportunistic approach and blame the arabs and terrorist organisations but you gotta admit that there has to be adjustments to the level of corruptions in you own government and foreign policies....

1. Israeli settlements on the West Bank are one of many issues that are obstacles to a comprehensive peace plan.

2.I have never denounced  anyone who disagreed with me as being  anti semitic simply because they disagreed with me. In the past when this accusation was thrown at me I asked for  evidence of that and I never got any evidence. Trying to resurrect this false allegation to focus away from the issues and attack me personally is pointless. In fact you have demonstrated in this very response that when you do not make anti semitic comments and simply disagree with me, I simply disagree back.

3.I personally think without some kind of US role a comprehensive peace plan will be unlikely.

4. Yes  there has been corruption in the Israeli political arena in regards to kickbacks and patronage.. Former Prime Ministers Olmert was found guilty of corruption. However In regards to  Israeliu foreign policy its not corrupt, simply because  you  disagree with it.

5. Israel is not my government or country. I do not speak for Israelis. I express my own opinions as a Jew who supports the right of Jews to express their Jewish identity as a collective political identity in a Jewish state (Israel)  and therefore be called Israeli, but I am Canadian..

The fact I believe Jews have a right to political self determination as Israelis does not mean I am not Canadian.

I was born here and I will die here. My loyalty is to Canada for allowing me rights and freedoms my ancestors could only dream of.

For that reason I must and will always defend Canada and its democratic traditions including the monarchy that give me all the things my ancestors never had..

Most of my fellow Jews do not have that luxury however. Many  fled to Israel from Muslim countries because no one would take them in as equals and many fought side by side and against the very monarchy I am sworn to uphold, to achieve their freedom.

. The Jewish state is for many  Jews the only.state to offer them refuge or is the place they were born in. I respect their right to exist as Jews in a Jewish state no differently than you do Muslims in Muslim states or Anglicans the state of England or Catholics the state of Vatican City.

 I also respect the right of Palestinians to self determination just as I do Jews. I do not agree with terrorism as a means to achieve anything by anyone. Palestinians will get a second state on the West Bank eventually but not until they give up the notion of turning all of Jordan, Israel and the West Bank into a Muslim sharia law nation which is the express intent and mission set out in the charters of the PA and Hamas ad all he other Palestinian terror cells...

Ordinary Palestinians and Israelis and Jordanians one day will make peace in spite of all the experts on this board who think Israel should go poof.

Edited by Rue
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