Ontario announces plan to destroy its economy

[?Impact]

INow they're going to spend billions of dollars over the next four years to wean Ontario off cheap natural gas and onto expensive electricity.

From what I have read of the leaked document, it is about new construction after the year 2030. I am wondering what would be spent in the next four years to address something that is still 14 years in the future.

[Boges]

So it the plan to make long term, unbreakable commitments in the next 2 or so sad years of this government that the next government will have to abide by?

I agree that we must move away from fossil fuels, but home heating is probably the last thing that needs to be addressed.

[TimG]

I agree that we must move away from fossil fuels, but home heating is probably the last thing that needs to be addressed.

What people seem to forget is we can't mess with the electrical system by saddling it with unnecessary requirements AND expect this system to expand rapidly to replace the energy currently provided by fossil fuels. If we want to get rid of consumer use of fossil fuels then the only priority should be efficient and low cost delivery of electricity. Edited May 19, 2016 by TimG

[Boges]

What people seem to forget is we can't mess with the electrical system by saddling it with unnecessary requirements AND expect this system to expand rapidly to replace the energy currently provided by fossil fuels. If we want to get rid of consumer use of fossil fuels then the only priority should be efficient and low cost delivery of electricity.

Yeah, imagine the baseload that'll be required if everyone using a personal car switched over to a plug-in electric car tomorrow.

[cannuck]

I actually work in the utility side of industry, and have done work for OPG, Ontario Hydro, etc. It is the most inefficient, incompetent utility(s) I have encountered over decades within several continents. To think that you could just wave a magic wand and get them to support several orders of magnitude of load from unproven (or proven impractical) energy sources is a genuine laugh.

The idea that Ontario could do nothing about the world economy is true, but what is COULD have done is be a hell of a lot more competitive to function within that world economy. THAT is Ontario's failing. For instance: the need to pay every worker in Toronto enough to afford a million dollar tarpaper shack pretty much guarantees that it is impossible to compete with a Chinese worker who will live in his highly subsidized apartment or condo and work his butt off 6 days a week, 12 hours a day to get ahead.

Edited May 20, 2016 by cannuck

[poochy]

Who ever would have guessed that far left zealots like Wynne wouldn't take balanced view of the world and run the province as though it somehow exists within this reality.

[scribblet]

Well said TimG.

Also I suppose the elimination of the natural gas industry won't be Orville's fault either.

A draconian suggestion which could lead to the collapse of Ontario's economy and housing, imagine having to pay another 2 - 3K for electric heat. I'm surprised there isn't a thread on this blueprint for disaster, in fact I've just signed a petition against it. I'm hoping that the PCs will be able to leverage this to a win next election.

[scribblet]

From what I have read of the leaked document, it is about new construction after the year 2030. I am wondering what would be spent in the next four years to address something that is still 14 years in the future.

That's only part of it. Natural gas is to be gradually phased out with new construction requiring all new homes by 2030 to be heated with electricity or geothermal systems. The target is for 12% of new vehicles to be electric by 2025. There will be grants for retrofitting homes to move off natural gas.

Our second home in Toronto was an all electric home (remember live better electrically), after a couple of years we put a gas furnace in, I would never willingly switch back to electric heat.

[BubberMiley]

Geothermal is a very promising technology though. I had a house heated and cooled by geothermal and I miss the cheap, cheap costs of running the house. After the system is installed, the only regular expense is the electricity to run the pumps, which is peanuts.

[TimG]

Geothermal is a very promising technology though.

With single family homes > $1 million there will be fewer and fewer people with the space for low cost geothermal.

[The_Squid]

With single family homes > $1 million there will be fewer and fewer people with the space for low cost geothermal.

So geothermal can only work in single-family homes?

[TimG]

So geothermal can only work in single-family homes?

The economically viable options require outside space:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a4597/4331401/

You can drill down but only when your house is not sitting on bedrock.

I would assume it could be adapted to medium size buildings in low density areas but at some point the density would make heat pumps not viable even in where geography cooperates.

One the reasons we use fossil fuels is they work everywhere with the same performance. This versatility has value beyond a question of cost.

[cannuck]

the next house I build will have a separate utilities building - to accommodate different energy sources in the future. NONE will be electric (although I am investigating geo-thermal if we move into the country). right now, hard to beat the cost of coal or natural gas.

[Topaz]

Any of u watch Mike Holmes Ultimate Garage? He built a 2 story and it heated by solar panels and back up I think is propane. Just Goggle it and watch the experts come in and explain the savings.

[Bonam]

Put insulation in the walls and you won't have heating bills... just turning on the lights or the computer or the stove when you use them anyway generates plenty of heat for a properly insulated space.

[-1=e^ipi]

Put insulation in the walls and you won't have heating bills... just turning on the lights or the computer or the stove when you use them anyway generates plenty of heat for a properly insulated space.

Not everyone uses incandescent light bulbs and lives in Seattle.

[Bonam]

Not everyone uses incandescent light bulbs and lives in Seattle.

Even LEDs give off a bit of heat. But you're right most of the heat comes from electronics and appliances, not lights. As for not living in Seattle... heat loss through the walls/windows is only linear with temperature difference. In winter, the temperature differential between a comfortable inside temperature and the outside temperature in places like Ontario is only about double what it is in Seattle, or at most triple. That means about a factor of 2-3 more energy needed to keep the place warm, if the insulation is comparable. So if it's $20/month worth of electricity for me to keep my place warm in Seattle, it shouldn't be $2000 (or whatever crazy numbers people were throwing around) in Toronto but maybe $100 (assuming 2.5x more energy use and 2x higher electricity costs). And anyway, if one lives in a cold climate one should insulate their building more, reducing the amount of heating needed.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Bonam

[-1=e^ipi]

Even LEDs give off a bit of heat. But you're right most of the heat comes from electronics and appliances, not lights. As for not living in Seattle... heat loss through the walls/windows is only linear with temperature difference. In winter, the temperature differential between a comfortable inside temperature and the outside temperature in places like Ontario is only about double what it is in Seattle, or at most triple. That means about a factor of 2-3 more energy needed to keep the place warm, if the insulation is comparable. So if it's $20/month worth of electricity for me to keep my place warm in Seattle, it shouldn't be $2000 (or whatever crazy numbers people were throwing around) in Toronto but maybe $100 (assuming 2.5x more energy use and 2x higher electricity costs). And anyway, if one lives in a cold climate one should insulate their building more, reducing the amount of heating needed.

$20 per month... wow, I need to move.

[overthere]

Any of u watch Mike Holmes Ultimate Garage? He built a 2 story and it heated by solar panels and back up I think is propane. Just Goggle it and watch the experts come in and explain the savings.

The payback on anything Mike Holmes does is 'never'. That 'garage' cost perhaps $250,000. I also have a heated garage that cost a fraction of that to build, is heated with a mid efficiency gas heater and costs about $200 per year to heat. If I switched to solar the payback would be in Holmes territory: never.

All his tools and much of the materials are supplied free by the companies slowly scrolling by at the end of each episode, and/or prominently featured during the episode.

[bush_cheney2004]

Put insulation in the walls and you won't have heating bills... just turning on the lights or the computer or the stove when you use them anyway generates plenty of heat for a properly insulated space.

Agreed....running four computer workstations and a 60" plasma television provides plenty of supplemental heat in our well insulated home. My son actually has to open a window for cooling in winter when he cranks up the gaming rig with two (SLI) graphics cards. I wonder if the Ontario energy Nazis consider these residential offsets in their push to destroy their economy.

[dre]

Put insulation in the walls and you won't have heating bills... just turning on the lights or the computer or the stove when you use them anyway generates plenty of heat for a properly insulated space.

Its the windows, doors, plates, and studs that end up getting you. Windows and doors are about R5, so putting R40 in your walls only goes so far. A stud or plate from outside to inside edge is about 1.5.

Point taken though.. If you wanted to spend the money you certainly could build a home that required very little heating. The question is what is the pay-back period of these enhanced construction methods.

Edited May 23, 2016 by dre

[Boges]

Oh so member Boges was correct. This report was just a trial balloon and the backlash has caused the Wynne Liberals to violently back down.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/wynne-natural-gas-heating-1.3602752

Premier Kathleen Wynne says Ontario won't ban the use of natural gas for home heating as part of its climate change action plan.

The plan hasn't been released yet, but the Liberals have been coy about details ever since a published report based on a leaked draft copy said the province would phase out fossil fuels for home heating.

But in her strongest statement yet on the issue, Wynne called the report "false," and said natural gas will "absolutely" be used to heat Ontario homes in the future.

"The criticism that we have been getting is that we were going to be banning natural gas, and that is not something that we're doing," Wynne said after meeting Alberta Premier Rachel Notley in Edmonton Thursday.

Natural gas is used to heat more than three-quarters of the homes in the province, and critics — as well as natural gas suppliers — warned that phasing it out would drive up energy costs for everyone.

Imagine the winter base load increase required to replace 3/4 of the heating costs of the province? It's just not feasable anytime soon until the base load can abandon actually using Natural Gas for generation and then be able to accommodate powering commuter trains and personal automobiles as well as transport trucks.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Boges

[andromeda]

wynne claims Ontario won't ban natural gas for home heating but goes on to say that $100 million will be spent on renewable natural gas technology. natural gas is a fossil fuel while 'renewable natural gas' is a biogas. renewable natural gas can be pumped through the same pipelines as natural gas and can also be liquefied. but the two are not the same. this may have merit but switching from natural gas to renewable natural gas will increase hydro costs. pay close attention to the wording being used.

[Argus]

Speaking of Ontario's economy, it seems that the Liberal government is determined to hide the basis for its budget and economic forecasts - from its own budget watchdog. All Ontario ministries have told the Ontario budget watchdog that all such information on projections are now a state secret.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-budget-watchdog-says-liberals-blocking-his-access-to-info/article30217755/

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/kelly-mcparland-in-wynnes-ontario-watchdogs-are-for-muzzling

Edited June 1, 2016 by Argus

[PIK]

Actually what wynne did is normal. For every scandal or boondoggle ,she comes out with stupid policy and that changes the channel.