Still Going to Buy the F-35, Really?

[DogOnPorch]

12 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

like the SSK-876 Victoria class submarines for example, this is classic Canadian penny wise pound foolishness, which wastes money by the billions,

 

Canadian Gov't: "Submarines...they travel above the water....right?? Oh! Under the water...? Are you sure that's correct??"

Edited September 1, 2019 by DogOnPorch

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

Canadian Gov't: "Submarines...they travel above the water....right?? Oh! Under the water...? Are you sure that's right??"

If the SSK-876 wasn't an orphaned fleet which the RN had actually mothballed,  they wouldn't have been in that state.

If other countries operated them too, Canada would have no problem sourcing parts to keep them going.

But as it is classic Canadian orphaned fleet, sold as being cheap but actually expensive in the end, it's just another Boutique Military boondoggle

Which is all the CF is about now. and all it has been about for many years.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

If the SSK-876 wasn't an orphaned fleet which the RN had actually mothballed,  they wouldn't have been in that state.

If other countries operated them too, Canada would have no problem sourcing parts to keep them going.

But as it is classic Canadian orphaned fleet, sold as being cheap but actually expensive in the end, it's just another Boutique Military boondoggle

Which is all the CF is about now. and all it has been about for many years.

 

If we were serious about submarines we'd be asking the US for an additional slip or two for Canadian Virginia Class rigs. Get 'em while they're hot. Second place in the submarine game is a free trip to Davy Jones' Locker. Sweeten the deal with offers of a base in the North or something practical that THEY can use.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said:

If we were serious about submarines we'd be asking the US for an additional slip or two for Canadian Virginia Class rigs. Get 'em while they're hot. Second place in the submarine game is a free trip to Davy Jones' Locker. Sweeten the deal with offers of a base in the North or something practical that THEY can use.

The Americans don't sell their submarines, those are NOFORN.

SSN-774 wouldn't be right for Canada anyways,  too big, too expensive, strategic capabilities which Canada does not require.

Basically whatever Australia buys, Australia's retarded cousin Canada should buy.

if Canada was serious about submarines,  they would join the Aussie  Barracuda program in progress, superb French design with American combat systems

Can be either MESMA or Nuclear powered, but the infrastructure for nuclear powered makes them much more expensive to maintain.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

The Americans don't sell their submarines, those are NOFORN.

SSN-774 wouldn't be right for Canada anyways,  too big, too expensive, strategic capabilities which Canada does not require.

Basically whatever Australia buys, Australia's retarded cousin Canada should buy.

if Canada was serious about submarines,  they would join the Aussie  Barracuda program in progress, superb French design with American combat systems

Can be either MESMA or Nuclear powered, but the infrastructure for nuclear powered makes them much more expensive to maintain.

 

I doubt we could afford one, anyways. But, I'm thinking lease with US providing support for the most part. 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

But, I'm thinking lease with US providing support for the most part. 

Just join the US Navy. 

SSN's are NOFORN, strategic assets at the highest levels where Canada is not a trusted partner.

Canada will not be given access to the Americans SSN's, particularly now that Canada has become a fifth column for Beijing.

[Dougie93]

Mo Panther porn.

Stars Wars Canyon, Death Valley.

 

The Mach Loop. Wales.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

50 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Just join the US Navy. 

SSN's are NOFORN, strategic assets at the highest levels where Canada is not a trusted partner.

Canada will not be given access to the Americans SSN's, particularly now that Canada has become a fifth column for Beijing.

You need to stop.  “Fifth column”?   Get real.  Beijing is losing on the PR front with Canadians, not that the US has been boosting PR.  

58 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Americans don't sell their submarines, those are NOFORN.

SSN-774 wouldn't be right for Canada anyways,  too big, too expensive, strategic capabilities which Canada does not require.

Basically whatever Australia buys, Australia's retarded cousin Canada should buy.

if Canada was serious about submarines,  they would join the Aussie  Barracuda program in progress, superb French design with American combat systems

Can be either MESMA or Nuclear powered, but the infrastructure for nuclear powered makes them much more expensive to maintain.

Australia has a totally different context, as a western enclave in China’s backyard.  There’s no Big Brother US next door, nor a Western Europe across the pond for Australia.

That doesn’t excuse Canada for neglecting the military.   I basically gather that to be right-sized for our NATO and NORAD commitments, as well as defence of our waters and the Arctic, we need decent patrol ships, which we are building; some aircraft for defence, which Super Hornets can provide reasonably well; some fighters with latest superior information tech and speed for dogfights in the international theatre, which the F-35’s can do better than anything out there; new ice breakers (don’t know status); fast naval vessels with the necessary communications, detection, and missiles (I thought we were procuring this and had most of that in our frigates); and drones for reconnaissance and strikes (no idea where we are with that).  I realize some of these things, such as the submarines, are on life support, so it comes down to commitment from governments and the people who elect them.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

I just call em' like I see em', you're free to take it or leave it, it's simply my professional view of things

I have no preference as a Lockheed Martin shareholder, I am free to own Boeing too,, but I don't like Boeing, it is TBTF, I just don't like the management and unions at Boeing.

Mo Panther porn.   Melbourne Australia.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Yeah f@ck Boeing.  Bring on the F-35’s!

[Dougie93]

F-35 EODAS Auto Target Detection & Geolocation.  All Seeing Eye, staring in all directions at all times.

F-35 redefines what Close Air Support means, not a bomb truck, an Information Weapon, provides vast amounts of relevant and organized information to the ground force,  including well over their horizon, while at the same time protecting them by controlling the airspace, and dropping ordinance with extreme precision, either preemptively in interdiction and/or on call in response, furthermore acting as the Air Controller to direct other Joint Fires; artillery, slow air, other ground forces too.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

Boeing has landed a US Navy contract for new F-18 E/F Block III aircraft, which has upgrades to address the F-18 gaps with F-35 and fleet needs.   Block III adds conformal tanks for longer range (like F-16 Block 60), Growler processors and better networking, stealthier forward profile and coatings, and service life extension from 6,000 to 10,000 hours.   The U.S. Navy will run with mixed carrier based squadrons of F-18 E/F/G and F-35C through at least 2030.

Along with planned upgrades for all Block IIs to Block III (but oldest F-18 E/F will not be upgraded), Boeing has effectively breathed new life into the Super Hornet program to keep the line alive in St. Louis at two per month minimum.   Retrofit work could happen at another facility.

What this means for Canada is significantly less life cycle risk if the F-18 Super Hornet is chosen, setting aside all squabbling with Boeing over Bombardier.

 

[Dougie93]

The Advanced Super Hornet will be more expensive than F-35 in the end.  The "Advanced" aspect is that Boeing is loading technology into the Super Hornet to try to close the gap with F-35

It doesn't actually do that, it's not stealth, it does not include sensor fusion which is the heart of what makes the  F-35 revolutionary.

The kit Boeing is putting on the SH is still expensive, driving the price up, when combined with the lack of scale, puts it over the price of the F-35 Alpha Panther.

Canada would be paying more for less, with no ability to upgrade later,  other than adding F-35 to the Advanced Super Hornet in a hi-lo mix, in which the F-35 would be the hi asset.

F-35 AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda Integrated Electronic Warfare suite, stealth is not just about being hard to detect, it is also about detecting the adversary radars to find out where the gaps are to then exploit those vectors for infil and exfil.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

F-35 provides Canada the most sovereign airpower as well, within the context of operating bilaterally with the Americans.

America does retain control of the F-35 software, same as Tesla does for their cars, so you can't use F-35 to attack America nor her allies.

However, for any other purpose, F-35 provides Canada with the power to go it alone on any operation, with very limited support, because F-35 pretty much does it all.

So for example if Canada got the troops in a jam, sent them into some United Nations mission and they were attacked by a country in the region, F-35 alone could deal with that, without Canada requesting support from allies, though Canada probably would anyways, Canada not actually having an independent foreign policy

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Advanced Super Hornet will be more expensive than F-35 in the end.  The "Advanced" aspect is that Boeing is loading technology into the Super Hornet to try to close the gap with F-35

It doesn't actually do that, it's not stealth, it does not include sensor fusion which is the heart of what makes the  F-35 revolutionary.

The kit Boeing is putting on the SH is still expensive, driving the price up, when combined with the lack of scale, puts it over the price of the F-35 Alpha Panther.

 

All true, but as has been demonstrated by Canada in the past, logic has nothing to do with it.    (Canada selected a U.S. Navy carrier based strike fighter before.) The possibility of more employment offsets in Canada and easier sales job for Super Hornet to Canadians (vs. evil F-35 war monger stealth death machine) makes it a push.

At this point, Canada will be better off just doing something to address the "replacement jets" problem and put it to bed economically and politically.

If it turns out to be Super Hornet, still better than legacy hangar queens.

Edited September 1, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

All true, but as has been demonstrated by Canada in the past, logic has nothing to do with it.    (Canada selected a U.S. Navy carrier based strike fighter before.) The possibility of more employment offsets in Canada and easier sales job for Super Hornet to Canadians (vs. evil F-35 war monger stealth death machine) makes it a push.

At this point, Canada will be better off just doing something to address the "replacement jets" problem and put it to bed economically and politically.

If it turns out to be Super Hornet, still better than legacy hangar queens.

I honestly don't give a rats ass about Canada per se, all I really care about in this case is the pilots Canada will inevitably send on some military adventure for the purposes of humanitarian virtue signalling and I'd rather those pilots don't get shot down by contemporary IADS.

If I thought Canada was actually going to just fly the NORAD tasking, then I would agree that SH is adequate, but because I know a future Canadian government will commit to fight someone else's war for them, as Canada ever has and always does, I want those pilots to have the best kit available.

Even from a ruthless attrition stand point, the pilots are more expensive than the jets and harder to replace, so also a cost savings not to get them killed.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

If I thought Canada was actually going to just fly the NORAD tasking, then I would agree that SH is adequate, but because I know a future Canadian government will commit to fight someone else's war for them, as Canada ever has and always does, I want those pilots to have the best kit available.

 

Canada would still be dependent on the Americans and more capable allies to achieve air superiority first...and at these force numbers we're talking one or maybe two squadrons of six at the most for NATO bullying (rest stay home for NORAD).    Canada has never had the best tactical aircraft....the history is well documented....and yes...pilots and their families paid the price.

Also, Canada's CF-18s never made it to A-stan...it was a war too far.

Politically, it may just be a question of what kind of crow the Liberals want to eat, assuming they prevail in the next election.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada would still be dependent on the Americans and more capable allies to achieve air superiority first.

Only against a Near Peer, Canada couldn't take on Iran.

But against lesser regional opponents, four F-35's would get the job done all on their own.

Example, Canada sends troops into South Sudan, Sudan intervenes against the Canadians

Just four F-35's out of the airfield at Entebbe Uganda could put the Sudanese down with ease, it would be a massacre,  until the Sudanese called it off at least.

Super Hornet can't do it, SH needs all those allied assets you are invoking, F-35 does not.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Only against a Near Peer, Canada couldn't take on Iran.

But against lesser regional opponents, four F-35's would get the job done all on their own.

Example, Canada sends troops into South Sudan, Sudan intervenes against the Canadians

Just four F-35's out of the airfield at Entebbe Uganda could put the Sudanese down with ease, it would be a massacre,  until the Sudanese called it off at least.

 

I would have believed that 20 years ago, but not now.   Buying new aircraft and smart munitions is only part of the puzzle, as Canada lacks several other logistical capabilities and power projection autonomy.   Basically, Canada is now incapable of independent strike missions abroad.

Canada is no longer a military middle power.

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

I would have believed that 20 years ago, but not now.   Buying new aircraft and smart munitions is only part of the puzzle, as Canada lacks several other logistical capabilities and power projection autonomy.   Basically, Canada is now incapable of independent strike missions abroad.

Canada is no longer a military middle power.

F-35 restores Canada to middle power status in of itself.

Full Spectrum Dominance, Air Superiority, Air Interdiction, Air Support, Air Defense, Airborne Early Warning & Control, Airborne Electronic Warfare.

No need for escort. No need for SEAD.  No need for AWACS.  No need for EW.  No need for ELINT.    No need to fly in close formation.   F-35 Panther does it all.

Strategic asset at Canada's level of operations, Superpower capability at Middle Power prices.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

F-35 restores Canada to middle power status in of itself.

 

 

Which is why Canada may not buy it.   The political forces will fight hard to stay away from the dark side.

F-35 is the superior strike fighter, and that is a problem for many Canadians.

 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Which is why Canada may not buy it.   The political forces will fight hard to stay away from the dark side.

F-35 is the superior strike fighter, and that is a problem for many Canadians.

Tru enough. Except that F-35 is the superior air to air fighter as well.

None the less, we at Lockheed Martin remain at Canada's disposal for all their middle power needs.

F-35 puts Canada back in the big leagues, with a platform which gives Canada unilateral leverage in any theater conflict below the threshold of near peer.

While keeping Canada at the tip of the spear with tier one allies in the event of coalition warfare against near pear.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

Another example of how Canada could be alone in an operational theater was Yugoslavia.

Before NATO intervened, UNPROFOR had no protection.   UN Chapter 6 sitting ducks, could be overrun by the cobelligerents at any time.

With 4 x F-35 and a tanker at FOL, perhaps in Italy, or even Malta, not only provides all in one quick reaction force, the mere presence of them would be a mighty deterrent,  more than the Juggoslavs would want to invite down upon themselves.

No requirement for NATO, no need to invoke Article V.  F-35 Panther does it all. 

Flexible. Versatile. Decisive.  Any mission, any time, anywhere.   

Edited September 1, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

...F-35 puts Canada back in the big leagues, with a platform which gives Canada unilateral leverage in any theater conflict below the threshold of near peer.

While keeping Canada at the tip of the spear with tier one allies in the event of coalition warfare against near pear.

 

Except that Canada is more reluctant than ever to use air power for strike missions.   What usually happens is that Canada gets relegated to CAP missions, tankers, and other patrol missions, because Ottawa is too afraid of dropping a laser guided bomb on some terrorist's grandmother.

So why would a very risk averse nation like Canada pony up the bucks to buy the most lethal strike fighter in the world ?

Edited September 1, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

So why would a very risk averse nation like Canada pony up the bucks to buy the most lethal strike fighter in the world ?

Not saying they should, I don't even consider Canada to be a sovereign country anymore, the Post National State is a Potemkin Village.

All we can do at Lockheed Martin is present our wares in good faith.

If Canada doesn't want to put its big boy pants on, it's not our business to tell them to, we offer solutions, but we don't dictate them.