Donald vs Hillary

[Big Guy]

The dems are far from united.

I suggest that we differ in what "united" means. I have not seen or heard any booing after Bernie made his request. Bill Clinton did his usual story telling and there was not one boo during his 45 minute speech. I am not a fan of Hillary. Biden was my choice for Democrats and Kasich for the Republicans.

[jacee]

How can you guarantee Trump never read the Bible? You even know of his intentions? Only God knows what's in his heart,

his motives. It's not for me, nor for you, to say whether he's a Christian or not.

You're talking with your emotions, Argus.

Trump doesn't read books.

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/133566/donald-trump-doesnt-read-books

[Argus]

How can you guarantee Trump never read the Bible? You even know of his intentions? Only God knows what's in his heart,

his motives. It's not for me, nor for you, to say whether he's a Christian or not.

And yet you have no such hesitation in pronouncing what's in Clinton's heart.

Trump doesn't like to read. He doesn't read books. He's said as much. And nothing in his life has ever showed any interest in Christianity, no behavior, no statements, nothing. Clinton, on the other hand, has always considered her religion to be important, and has worked tirelessly on behalf of the poor for decades. What has Trump done for the poor?

You're talking with your emotions, Argus.

Quite the contrary. My emotions say that I should prefer Trump. It's my intelligence which says Trump is a demagogue with a mean streak and has such a low level of morality, honesty and integrity he shouldn't ever be president.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

So now you are agreeing that there is a double standard. I guess that is good because that was my point all along.

But you also need to remember that the reason Clinton set up the email server was she wanted to evade the FOI laws and, as a result of her deliberate attempt to evade the law, she inadvertently mishandled secret documents. So you could argue that her offense under the official secrets act was minor but intentionally avoiding the FOIA should be a much bigger deal than it is otherwise the act is meaningless.

First of all I operate under the assumption that every single word in every single email the State Department sends is being read by the Russians and Chinese before the intended recipient. US government computers are as thoroughly penetrated as ours. Second, most of these so-called classified emails were probably of middling low levels of importance. Having worked for the government I can tell you that there are an incredible range of utterly unimportant types of data which get classified.

I agree she was hoping to avoid FOIA because she knew the Republicans would be demanding every single email she'd ever sent or received in hopes of garnering dirt on her. I don't think a cabinet minister's email ought to be subject to such requests in the first place.

[Argus]

For sure! Why even bother putting on the farce like primary and delegates and voters.

Next time just scrap the whole 'neutrality charade' and just appoint candidates.

I'm still waiting to hear how the DNC cheated Sanders out of his rightful win. Got anything yet?

BTW, did you happen to watch Bill Clinton's recitation of the decades of time and effort Hillary put into helping the poor and minorities and disabled and children in state after state long before she ever entered politics?

I consider her to be way too 'progressive' for my tastes, but even she is better than a demagogue like Trump.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Argus

[betsy]

When you said he was "just a general" (which didn't make sense to begin with), you made it clear you were unaware that he actually stepped down from his position as Director of the CIA.

Compared to the title of Secretary of State....he's "just a general."

Even as the Director of the CIA - compared to the Secretary of State - he's just the Director of the CIA.

If this guy had stepped down for basically the same thing done by Hillary - then, what's Hillary doing running for President?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2vVT42YIxs

Edited July 27, 2016 by Charles Anthony
video link

[betsy]

I suggest that we differ in what "united" means. I have not seen or heard any booing after Bernie made his request. Bill Clinton did his usual story telling and there was not one boo during his 45 minute speech. I am not a fan of Hillary. Biden was my choice for Democrats and Kasich for the Republicans.

Of course you have not. How can you see or hear the booing when they've all walked out?

Walkout by defiant Bernie Sanders supporters mars Hillary Clinton’s historic nomination

But moments after her nomination was sealed, a vocal crowd of Sanders supporters walked out in protest. Dozens of them occupied a media tent outside the Wells Fargo Arena. Some taped their mouths shut. Several sobbed. Many complained the convention had been rigged.

As the protest carried on, speakers on stage fought to keep the focus on Clinton and her landmark campaign. “The right wing has thrown everything at her — not only the kitchen sink, but the stove, the refrigerator, and the toaster,” said California Senator Barbara Boxer. “And guess what? She’s still standing.”

The protests, however, continued. For hours, rebel Sanders delegates scrummed, inside the arena and out. It wasn’t until Clinton’s husband took the stage after 10 p.m. that the focus truly shifted again.

On Monday, Sanders loyalists booed Clinton’s name inside the Wells Fargo Arena while outside his supporters marched in the sun. When Sanders addressed the convention Monday night, he urged his supporters to unite and back Clinton. But many seemed unwilling to heed his pleas.

Still, the arena Tuesday at first seemed to lack the flinty edge so evident the night before. Sanders die-hards could still be seen in the crowd. One woman held up a banner reading “Election Fraud” during the roll call vote. Another unfurled a full-sized Sanders flag on the floor.

But the boos were softer, if they were there at all. And in a bid for party unity, Sanders himself rose at the end of the roll call vote and asked that the nomination be made unanimous. Despite some loud objections, the vote passed and the party was, officially, united behind Clinton.

But it was at that point that the protest began. It’s hard to say how many delegates were involved. They were set up outside in a circle of reporters that seemed 10 deep. For more than an hour police blocked the entrance to the media tent, while dozens of other officers waited in the wings. Eventually, the crowd cleared. But a block remained outside and the fight continued in the halls of the arena. The Sanders mutiny involved a small fraction of the delegates in the hall, but it drew outsized attention. The angry protestors pulled focus away from the program inside and reinforced the narrative of a party in disarray.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/hillary-clintons-nomination-breaks-barriers-and-puts-end-to-bitter-primary-battle-with-sanders

"Hundreds of Sanders supporters walk out after Clinton nominated, Disorder erupts on Philly streets outside DNC.Delegates stage mass walk out at the 2016 Democratic National Convention. Bernie Sanders Delegates walk out at DNC Convention. Protests outside of the Democratic National Convention turned chaotic and veered into violence in Philadelphia."

VIDEO LINK

"Green Party Presidential Candidate Jill Stein joined Bernie Sanders supporters in a protest outside the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia on Tuesday night. (July 27)"

VIDEO LINK

[Smoke]

Of course you have not. How can you see or hear the booing when they've all walked out?

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/hillary-clintons-nomination-breaks-barriers-and-puts-end-to-bitter-primary-battle-with-sanders

"Hundreds of Sanders supporters walk out after Clinton nominated, Disorder erupts on Philly streets outside DNC.Delegates stage mass walk out at the 2016 Democratic National Convention. Bernie Sanders Delegates walk out at DNC Convention. Protests outside of the Democratic National Convention turned chaotic and veered into violence in Philadelphia."

VIDEO LINK

"Green Party Presidential Candidate Jill Stein joined Bernie Sanders supporters in a protest outside the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia on Tuesday night. (July 27)"

VIDEO LINK

Looks like the National Post also differs from Big Guy in what "united" means.

[Dead*Mule]

Probably Trump will win, but neither deserve to.

[Argus]

Probably Trump will win, but neither deserve to.

Why doesn't Clinton deserve to?

[taxme]

And yet you have no such hesitation in pronouncing what's in Clinton's heart.

Trump doesn't like to read. He doesn't read books. He's said as much. And nothing in his life has ever showed any interest in Christianity, no behavior, no statements, nothing. Clinton, on the other hand, has always considered her religion to be important, and has worked tirelessly on behalf of the poor for decades. What has Trump done for the poor?

Quite the contrary. My emotions say that I should prefer Trump. It's my intelligence which says Trump is a demagogue with a mean streak and has such a low level of morality, honesty and integrity he shouldn't ever be president.

But Hillary the liar and warmonger should be President, eh? Wow? You really want to keep the corrupt, inept, lying regime going, don't you? At least Trump appears to want to change the system that has been screwing the American people for decades. We all know by now what Hillary is really all about. Why not give Trump a chance. Can he be any worse than what we have seen from the last few Presidents? He may just be the knight in shining armor for the American people. The people who need rescuing from the decades of corruption and chaos and wars that has been foisted on them by the globalist elites who have and show no love for the American people. Trump appears to be the man who will do just that. Go, Trump, go.

[taxme]

Why doesn't Clinton deserve to?

Oh boy.

[Argus]

But Hillary the liar and warmonger should be President, eh?

She's a bit hawkish for a progressive Democrat, but a far cry short of traditional Republicans. And should a guy supporting Trump be complaining about anyone lying? I mean, clearly his lies don't bother you.

At least Trump appears to want to change the system that has been screwing the American people for decades.

Trump has been screwing people for decades. I don't think you turn to a selfish, self-centred, greedy billionaire to free the democratic process from selfish greedy billionaires.

We all know by now what Hillary is really all about.

Because you heard it on FOX news, right?

Why not give Trump a chance.

Well, partly because he's a bullying proto-fascist demagogue, and partly because he's never demonstrated any capability at organizing anything, nor any of the traits you need to see in a democratic leader.

Can he be any worse than what we have seen from the last few Presidents?

Yes.

He may just be the knight in shining armor for the American people.

The problem with that concept is that never in his life has Trump offered up his time and energy for a selfless cause, to help others. Never has he sacrificed anything for anyone. Clinton, by contrast, has spent years of her life helping others.

And never has Trump stood up to anyone stronger than him, either. In fact, he eagerly cut deals with the mob and caved to the banks. So you'll pardon me if I don't see him as a shining knight wanting to rescue people so much as an egotistical blowhard who just wants everyone to admire him.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

....The problem with that concept is that never in his life has Trump offered up his time and energy for a selfless cause, to help others. Never has he sacrificed anything for anyone.

Patently false....Trump, the Trump family, and their foundations have been involved with charitable giving for decades:

....The foundation has been around since 1987, and according to the most recent tax filings available, gave around $913,000. In 2012, the foundation gave away around $1.7 million. Trump spreads his money around to a number of different outfits...

....Of late, Trump has tended to give modest sums to a number of national health organizations such as American Cancer Society, American Diabetes Association, Alliance for Lupus Research, Autism Speaks, Crohn's & Colitis Foundation of America, and more. One particular health cause does not appear to be favored over any other. It is worth noting that in 2011, Trump and his siblings gave a $1 million gift to support and name the Institute for Implant Analysis at the Hospital for Special Surgery, which treated Trump's parents.

...Trump has also supported various human services outfits. Last decade, Trump gave at least $1 million to United Way. The foundation has supported Citymeals-on-Wheels and the National Network to End Domestic Violence, among others. Trump also focuses on New York, giving grants to outfits such as New York City Police Foundation, Ronald McDonald House of New York, and New Yorkers For Parks, among others. Trump also gives sums to Florida organizations.

http://www.insidephilanthropy.com/home/2015/9/29/a-quick-look-at-donald-trumps-philanthropy.html

[Argus]

Patently false....Trump, the Trump family, and their foundations have been involved with charitable giving for decades:

....The foundation has been around since 1987, and according to the most recent tax filings available, gave around $913,000. In 2012, the foundation gave away around $1.7 million. Trump spreads his money around to a number of different outfits...

A filthy rich man writing a small check does not constitute any kind of sacrifice or effort. And as far as Trump is concerned, they're very small checks. For all his bragging, he's cheap, and makes a lot more promises of donations than he ever keeps.

The Post contacted 188 charities searching for evidence of personal gifts from Trump in the period between 2008 and this May. The Post sought out charities that had some link to Trump, either because he had given them his foundation’s money, appeared at their charity galas or praised them publicly.

The search turned up just one donation in that period — a 2009 gift of between $5,000 and $9,999 to the Police Athletic League of New York City.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-promised-millions-to-charity-we-found-less-than-10000-over-7-years/2016/06/28/cbab5d1a-37dd-11e6-8f7c-d4c723a2becb_story.html

How miserly is The Donald?

From 1990 through 2009, Trump has personally donated a total of just $3.7 million to his foundation, which was incorporated in 1987. In fact, the billionaire is not even the largest contributor to his own charitable organization.

http://newsexaminer.net/politics/donald-trump-the-least-charitable-billionaire/

Trump's foundation began in 1987 and exists to donate money to other charities.

It has no staff, and its annual IRS filings have regularly listed Trump's average time spent on it as "minimal" or zero hours a week. The foundation has given out $3.6 million between 2011 and 2013, the most recent year in which its finances are available.

The overwhelming majority of its recent gifts have been made with other people's money.

http://www.businessinsider.com/theres-something-fishy-about-donald-trumps-charitable-donations-2015-8

Edited July 27, 2016 by Argus

[BubberMiley]

Compared to the title of Secretary of State....he's "just a general."

Even as the Director of the CIA - compared to the Secretary of State - he's just the Director of the CIA.

Yes, just the Director of the CIA. it's not like the Director of the CIa is entrusted with important secrets or anything.

Do you ever listen to yourself?

[WestCoastRunner]

If we could see his tax returns then we would really know about his generosity towards charities.

[Dead*Mule]

Too much baggage.

[Dead*Mule]

Clinton seems to have too much baggage. Largely it's just Trump propaganda and lies, and what contains any truth is overblown and exaggerated.

Still, she does not seem to inspire that much confidence when it is all said and done.

But, anything but Trump.

[msj]

If we could see his tax returns then we would really know about his generosity towards charities.

You don't need to see his returns!

Why would you need facts?

If you were a republican then you would only need to search your feelings to feel his generosity!

[BC_chick]

I'm still waiting to hear how the DNC cheated Sanders out of his rightful win. Got anything yet?

BTW, did you happen to watch Bill Clinton's recitation of the decades of time and effort Hillary put into helping the poor and minorities and disabled and children in state after state long before she ever entered politics?

I consider her to be way too 'progressive' for my tastes, but even she is better than a demagogue like Trump.

He wasn't cheated out of a rightful *win* he was cheated out of a rightful *neutral primary*. Let's see...

They made his religion an issue both as a deterrent to Christians and to Jews because he had primarily considered himself atheist and against Israel policies. They made it a focus that he was an independent and not truly a democrat. I saw this time and time again about how he'd been a Democrat for 5 minutes. They called the campaign failed from the start, trying to take momentum from his supporters. Clinton's lawyers even advised the DNC on Sanders strategy.

Who knows if he would've won, you're basically asking me to prove a negative, but I do know that they went as far as they could to ruin his brand while backing Clinton as the only alternative even though she is highly unlikeable and polls badly.

And I don't give a crap what she did forty years ago, she's since become a shill to Wall Street.

Any progressive bone in her body left when she got a taste of power.

ETA, better than Trump, I agree. However, that's setting the bar real low and speaks more about her opponent than her.

Edited July 28, 2016 by BC_chick

[Topaz]

Clinton has too much baggage and the biggest is her Hubby! The Clinton's have been in the W.H. before and look what happen in those years. The years between the end of Clinton's era and the beginning of the Bush era, money went missing from the military around 3.2 Billion or trillion , can't remember exactly which, but the Bush gang just passed it off, saying they would never ever find it. So I guess if one doesn't mind a corrupt government, put Clinton back in the White House and keep having a double standard for crime.

[BubberMiley]

Clinton has too much baggage and the biggest is her Hubby! The Clinton's have been in the W.H. before and look what happen in those years. The years between the end of Clinton's era and the beginning of the Bush era, money went missing from the military around 3.2 Billion or trillion , can't remember exactly which, but the Bush gang just passed it off, saying they would never ever find it. So I guess if one doesn't mind a corrupt government, put Clinton back in the White House and keep having a double standard for crime.

Can't remember exactly which?

[Argus]

They made his religion an issue both as a deterrent to Christians and to Jews because he had primarily considered himself atheist and against Israel policies.

When? I know one guy wrote an internal email to another. When did they use it against Sanders?

They made it a focus that he was an independent and not truly a democrat.

I saw this time and time again about how he'd been a Democrat for 5 minutes.

He HAS been a Democrat for 5 minutes. But I want to see where the DNC damaged Sanders, as opposed to sending a few inter-office emails to each other.

They called the campaign failed from the start, trying to take momentum from his supporters.

Again. When? Where? One of the INTERNAL emails said something like that.

“Wondering if there’s a good Bernie narrative for a story, which is that Bernie never had his act together, that his campaign was a mess,” Paustenbach wrote.

But the reply was “True, but the Chair has been advised not to engage. So we’ll have to leave it alone.”

Who knows if he would've won, you're basically asking me to prove a negative,

Nope. I'm asking you to show where the DNC actually acted against him, where they sent out emails to important outsiders, donors, for example, urging them not to support him. Something like that.

And I don't give a crap what she did forty years ago, she's since become a shill to Wall Street.

Forty years ago, and thirty years ago, and twenty years ago, and ten years ago. The Sanders people made a big deal about her taking money from Wall Street, but nobody who hopes to reach the senate in New York is going to do it without big corporate money. New York is not Vermont. And only a fool believes in unilateral disarmament. The important thing about big corporate money is that the Democrats have tried repeatedly to reign it in and been strongly resisted by the Republicans. Any hope of putting limits on campaign spending rests with Democrats because the Republican leadership (as opposed to Republicans) has zero interest.

[Big Guy]

Tony Schwarz is a journalist who ghostwrote Trumps "The Art of the Deal". A publication Trump is very proud of. I was watching CNN this morning and saw this very enlightening interview with that journalist:

Interview