Donald vs Hillary

Argus · November 9, 2016

1 hour ago, Topaz said:

I'M NOT surprised Trump won because he connected with so many voters who felt like he said

One of the guys on TV said, before the vote, that Donald Trump was an empty gin bottle hurled through a plate glass window. He is the expressed anger of the working class towards those they perceive to be out of touch elites.

kimmy · November 9, 2016

6 hours ago, Derek 2.0 said:

I don't think that........she, along with millions upon millions, have simply bought into the demagoguery that is partisan politics........

Demagoguery was a big part of Trump's pitch, A lot of people bought in, and they've got high expectations.

I don't think Trump can deliver the 5% growth he promised, or the millions of Rust Belt jobs he promised, or make ISIS vanish, or most of the other stuff he promised. But with the White House, Congress, the Senate, and soon the Supreme Court, he can definitely deliver some socially conservative red meat to appease his constituency.

I'd definitely be worried if I was on the other side of the border.

-k

Argus · November 9, 2016

David Frum, I think it was, also pointed out the heavy impact immigration had on this election, particularly illegal immigration. He said that back before Trump, all the Republican leaders and the Democrats agreed that the way to deal with it was to legalize many of those already in the US and provide a legal means for future immigration. That sat well with those who are in 'the elites', businessmen, media, bankers, etc. It didn't sit well with the man in the street. The man in the street doesn't benefit from immigration, or at least, doesn't see a benefit. Instead he fears its economic and cultural impact. Yet he's been told to sit down and shut up, that his concerns are 'racist' and nobody cares what he thinks.

Then came Donald Trump, who, while never previously expressing any particular care or concern about illegal immigration, clearly understood the underlying anger and resentment was there, even though it rarely got on TV, and saw this as a lever to get himself a huge boost in popularity. It worked, too.

kimmy · November 9, 2016

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

Who the hell is Tanya?

Angry American houseguest. I honestly have no idea what she's doing here, to be honest.

-k

Queenmandy85 · November 9, 2016

That's democracy for you. Like it or not, the voters have spoken. What a lot of them said was, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more."

Argus · November 9, 2016

Just now, Queenmandy85 said:

That's democracy for you. Like it or not, the voters have spoken. What a lot of them said was, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more."

Unfortunately, I find it hard to believe Trump is really going to do much, if anything, to help ordinary people.

?Impact · November 9, 2016

What would Archie do? Those of us old enough to remember Archie remember he turned out very different than his caricature, even though that caricature persists to this day. It will be an interesting 4 years.

Both good metaphors, but I think the gin bottle is the winner.

?Impact · November 9, 2016

6 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Angry American houseguest. I honestly have no idea what she's doing here, to be honest.

-k

I wonder how many of us will be hosting angry American houseguest over the coming months?

kimmy · November 9, 2016

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

The man in the street doesn't benefit from immigration, or at least, doesn't see a benefit. Instead he fears its economic and cultural impact. Yet he's been told to sit down and shut up, that his concerns are 'racist' and nobody cares what he thinks.

Then came Donald Trump, who, while never previously expressing any particular care or concern about illegal immigration, clearly understood the underlying anger and resentment was there, even though it rarely got on TV, and saw this as a lever to get himself a huge boost in popularity. It worked, too.

Yes... Trump called himself "Mr Brexit" at one point, and this was really Brexit all over again.

As you say "the average guy" doesn't see the benefit from immigration or trade deals. He sees manufacturing jobs leaving the country, he sees immigrants arriving to compete for what jobs remain... and he asks "why should I support this?"

I was watching NBC streaming coverage last night, and Tom Brokaw kept saying "you know, we really underestimated how angry people are..." but after Brexit, and after the Bernie Sanders and Trump campaigns in the primaries, they really shouldn't be surprised.

Hillary said "being angry isn't a plan!" but she didn't actually offer any actual plan for "the average guy".

-k

Argus · November 9, 2016

3 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

What would Archie do?

The main problem with Archie was his profound ignorance. I remember where he got on TV somehow, during a 'man in the street' kind of interview, and said he could stop bank robberies easy. What you do, see, is build trap doors in the floor in front of all the tellers, see, and then if someone tries to rob them, the teller presses a button, and the bank robber falls down into like a vacuum tube, and is zipped across town to the police station, see? Problem solved.

But Trump, who is profoundly ignorant about every aspect of government, and disinclined to learn or take advice, is now in a position to actually order stupid stuff done.

Argus · November 9, 2016

4 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Hillary said "being angry isn't a plan!" but she didn't actually offer any actual plan for "the average guy".

Sure she did. She talked about a variety of mechanisms to help improve the lives of ordinary Americans, to improve education and training and ease economic dislocation. Trump, meanwhile, offered no plans at all, just a sort of broad, vent-your-spleen opportunity. And he got all the press coverage. I doubt many people knew much about her boring old plans because the press were all too busy showcasing Trump's outrageous conduct. Besides, the right in the US has spent twenty years demonizing Clinton to the point vast numbers of Americans didn't trust anything she sad anyway. Remember the irony of last week's poll showing most Americans thought she was less honest than Trump....

Queenmandy85 · November 9, 2016

President -Elect Trump gave an acceptance speech that could have been written by Justin Trudeau. Infrastructure spending, and unifying the country.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Queenmandy85
Bad spelling

sharkman · November 9, 2016

51 minutes ago, kimmy said:

Demagoguery was a big part of Trump's pitch, A lot of people bought in, and they've got high expectations.

I don't think Trump can deliver the 5% growth he promised, or the millions of Rust Belt jobs he promised, or make ISIS vanish, or most of the other stuff he promised. But with the White House, Congress, the Senate, and soon the Supreme Court, he can definitely deliver some socially conservative red meat to appease his constituency.

I'd definitely be worried if I was on the other side of the border.

-k

I doubt he'll be delivering conservative red meat, since he isn't a conservative.

His win astounded the MSM. They said he didn't have a ground game. He didn't have political experience. He didn't have the Clinton's election machine. He didn't have their money, upwards of 2 billion. Meanwhile, Hillary had the Media in her corner. She successfully positioned herself to Obama's legacy, and was thought of as his third term, and had him actively campaigning for her.

But the polls were wrong and the MSM was wrong, and they all missed the situation on the ground,so as shocked as they all are they deserve it.

To all the "sky is falling" crowd, it's time to buck up. Keep calm and carry on. Whining and moaning about Trump is useless, regardless of what the typical left wing sites are saying. Trump is not going to bring about the downfall of civilization, and the sun will come up tomorrow.

Icebound · November 9, 2016

Lesson to all political parties everywhere:

....Celebrity Trumps everything.

Lots of talking heads saying Sanders would have beat Trump. Nope.

...

Topaz · November 9, 2016

Yeah, many people are peeved off BUT give Trump a chance, he can't be any worse then any others. I knew Trump was going to win because he reached the voters who didn't like the cancer in government and wanted it gone. Now, Trump HAS to do what he said he would do against Hillary and their foundation. Both, the Bush and Clintons are partners in crime and to go. TRUMP, should triple his security and check out each and every secret service agent around him, because its been said that JFK and

Icebound · November 9, 2016

12 minutes ago, sharkman said:

Trump is not going to bring about the downfall of civilization, and the sun will come up tomorrow.

Well.... nobody knows that, really. And it might depend on the colour of your skin, whether you feel civilization has disintegrated or not.

Trump may not bring about the downfall of civilization all by himself, but he has opened a can of racist worms that society will now have to contain.

Rue · November 9, 2016

I thought for sure the difference would come down to Ohio and Florida which I both gave to Clinton. I did not see those going to Trump or for that matter

Pennsylvania. High early election vote turn out always seems to indicate a desire to get rid of who is in office not maintain the status quo which I warned. I also warned blacks and Latinos would not come out to vote as they did with Obama which would favour Trump.

I did not however expect Clinton to be unable to get the women vote. Women voted for Trump. The numbers coming in show that, They also show progressive

Republicans di d not vote for her as I thought they would. They just held off voting for the Prez, and that helped Trump.

The polls were all wrong. The media completely wrong.

Trump did not use political machines in Florida or other states to win. He didn't spend that much on ads or engage in a blitz campaign on the internet.

He did very little other than rely on his own mouth and World Wrestling Federation scripts-America No.1.

Go to old WWE wrestling tapes of Rick Flair or Ravishing Rick Rude to see his script and act.

Bottom line the grass roots spoke. They were sick and tired of Obama calling the US no.2, removing it as a world military power. Americans are first and foremost

military chauvenists. You can't ted on their snake as the USMC flag says. Obama did that and this election is about hurt pride.

Icebound · November 9, 2016

Did anybody notice that Trump did not end his acceptance speech with the usual "may God Bless the United States of America" ? Is there anything to be read from that?

Argus · November 9, 2016

53 minutes ago, Icebound said:

Lesson to all political parties everywhere:

....Celebrity Trumps everything.

Lots of talking heads saying Sanders would have beat Trump. Nope.

I disagree. Almost anyone would have beaten Trump. Clinton simply had too many negatives and was exactly the person the man in the street most wanted gone, the entitled, distant, long serving government apparatchik. The Republicans had spent decades smearing her and that had a tremendous impact. Nobody knew quite what she was guilty of but everyone was sure she was guilty of something. I think a plain spoken 'guy' like Biden would have wiped the floor with Trump. Even with all Clinton's negatives if one state had switched sides she'd have been president.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Argus

Argus · November 9, 2016

8 minutes ago, Icebound said:

Did anybody notice that Trump did not end his acceptance speech with the usual "may God Bless the United States of America" ? Is there anything to be read from that?

I don't think so. Trump has never been a religious guy, no matter what he professed in the election. None of the people around him, other than Ben Carson, are religious.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Argus

Icebound · November 9, 2016

21 minutes ago, Argus said:

I disagree. Almost anyone would have beaten Trump. Clinton simply had too many negatives and was exactly the person the man in the street most wanted gone, the entitled, distant, long serving government apparatchik. The Republicans had spent decades smearing her and that had a tremendous impact. Nobody knew quite what she was guilty of but everyone was sure she was guilty of something. I think a plain spoken 'guy' like Biden would have wiped the floor with Trump. Even with all Clinton's negatives if one state had switched sides she'd have been president.

Ah, but you are trying to find a LOGICAL explanation. The people do not vote on logic. "woman leader bad"; "celebrity good"; "I don't need to hear anything else".

George Clooney would have beat him, yes.

-TSS- · November 9, 2016

This was considered as a surprise but when you come to think of it was it such a surprise after all? The media and the elite seem to have created a bubble for themselves to live in and that bubble doesn't reflect the reality of ordinary people. When the bubble bursts the reactions are shock and horror. I wonder how many people living in the real world reacted to the election-result by saying "told you so".

sharkman · November 9, 2016

1 hour ago, Icebound said:

Well.... nobody knows that, really. And it might depend on the colour of your skin, whether you feel civilization has disintegrated or not.

Trump may not bring about the downfall of civilization all by himself, but he has opened a can of racist worms that society will now have to contain.

No, Obama opened the can of racist worms with several actions that he took and things he continually said. Trump has not helped with his comments about banning Muslims and deporting Mexicans, but those are at least legitimate issues that must be dealt with. Why should Mexicans be allowed to cross the border illegally when so many are trying to enter the US legally? Why should the US take in tens of thousands of Syrians when Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. are so close by and their cultures are so much more in line with Syria's.

And you have a tin hat on if you think Trump might bring about the downfall of civilization. In a few days you'll calm down and realize how silly that sounds.

Argus · November 9, 2016

As I had always suspected, it turned out to depend on who got out to the polls. Trump's supporters, particularly rural blue collar whites, ran, not walked, to the polls. Clinton's supporters, eh, I'm watching Survivor. In addition, the supposed groundswell of support Clinton was going to get from Blacks, Hispanics and women because of Trump's racism and sexism never materialized. She got fewer votes from all those communities than Obama did last time around. Hard to believe, but Hispanics didn't care that Trump wanted to deport 11 million of them and build a wall against the rest. And women, particularly White women shrugged off Trump's misogyny. Trump actually improved the Republican share of Latino votes over Romney!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/09/hillary-clinton-failed-to-win-over-black-hispanic-and-female-vot/

Edited November 9, 2016 by Argus