eyeball Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 I never mentioned Muslim atheists. I was talking about Muslim attitudes towrds atheists, like me. My bad for not being clearer. Just to be really clear though, you recognize that muslim atheists do in fact exist? Seems like a stupid question I know but if conservatives and progressives are ever going to avoid shooting at and blowing one another up we really have to start talking pains to be absolutely certain we're being clear and unambiguous to the point of being anal. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Just to be really clear though, you recognize that muslim atheists do in fact exist? Seems like a stupid question I know but if conservatives and progressives are ever going to avoid shooting at and blowing one another up we really have to start talking pains to be absolutely certain we're being clear and unambiguous to the point of being anal. I didn't know atheists of any religion could exist. I thought the one automatically precluded the other. I mean, I could be described as a Roman Catholic if you count my baptism, confirmation, and all the communions and confessions I went through as a child, but since becoming an atheist I don't think that would very accurate. It describes what I was, not what I am.
dialamah Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Well, exactly. No-one is perfect, and no-one is ever likely to be. There are stages of civilization, though, on the way to perfection, and while we are only a certain way along the path, there are those who haven't gotten as far as the starting line yet. As to your point about Islam itself, I have argued and continue to argue that it is only the interpretation that matters. If a book says "kill", you don't actually have to. The question remains why so many Muslims seem to put the word of the book first, above reason and compassion. Say what you like about any religion, the numbers these days do support the notion that Muslims do it more than others. For the most part, I agree with you, but I don't think it's a case that "Muslims do it more than others". Who's to say that if the region was primarily Christian, with exactly the same political situations, there wouldn't equally be Christian extremists engaging in worldwide terrorism? The context matters, the religion provides justification and rationalization, but it is not the reason. There's a lot of unrest in that region, decades of oppressive rule, extreme poverty alongside extreme wealth, meddling by Western powers, the Arab Spring attempt at gaining freedom from oppression, and the rise of Islamic extremists. You can't ignore all those factors with "They're like this because their holy book tells them to be".
Guest Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 The progressive and liberal muslims in other words as opposed to regressive conservative muslims It's interesting how you've characterized muslim atheists in terms of being atheistic towards their religion. I always thought atheism was more a universal trait, like conservatism. To return to this post for a moment. Do progressive Muslims recognise the excesses of their co-religionists? Because as I stated earlier, I don't think progressives can look at Islam without certain blinkers in place. Are progressive Muslims guilty of the same?
Guest Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 For the most part, I agree with you, but I don't think it's a case that "Muslims do it more than others". Who's to say that if the region was primarily Christian, with exactly the same political situations, there wouldn't equally be Christian extremists engaging in worldwide terrorism? The context matters, the religion provides justification and rationalization, but it is not the reason. There's a lot of unrest in that region, decades of oppressive rule, extreme poverty alongside extreme wealth, meddling by Western powers, the Arab Spring attempt at gaining freedom from oppression, and the rise of Islamic extremists. You can't ignore all those factors with "They're like this because their holy book tells them to be". What you are doing is describing why you think Middle Eastern Muslims are the way they are. Okay. Others might differ with you on certain aspects of certain reasons, but with all due respect, so what? The fact is, a very large percentage of the world's Muslims, mainly concentrated in the Middle East, but spreading out around the world, want to kill you for what you believe. Or don't believe. Or at the very least, in some cases, make you change your mind. The percentage is open to debate. The levels of barbarism, compared to what we see as civilised, are open to debate. What is not open to debate is the fact that the debate centers on Islam. No other religion.
eyeball Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I didn't know atheists of any religion could exist. I thought the one automatically precluded the other. That's what I figured, but don't forget the crowd that regards atheism as just another belief system. I've even seen atheists who say that. God only knows what compels them to do so. Atheism is an effect not a cause. It's certainly not a guarantee against widespread mass delusion. I mean, I could be described as a Roman Catholic if you count my baptism, confirmation, and all the communions and confessions I went through as a child, but since becoming an atheist I don't think that would very accurate. It describes what I was, not what I am. There are people and countries however who will go to great lengths to describe you that way - people who are desperate to count you as being amongst them for example. I was fast-tracked into Heaven when I was Christened. You poor Catholics sure have a long row to hoe don't you? Edited December 30, 2015 by eyeball A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 That's what I figured, but don't forget the crowd that regards atheism as just another belief system. I've even seen atheists who say that. God only knows what compels them to do so. Atheism is an effect not a cause. It's certainly not a guarantee against widespread mass delusion. There are people and countries however who will go to great lengths to describe you that way - people who are desperate to count you as being amongst them for example. I was fast-tracked into Heaven when I was Christened. You poor Catholics sure have a long row to hoe don't you? Yeah, and that's not counting the Nuns...
ReeferMadness Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Then consider for a few minutes the idea that 2,000 years of Muslim history is somehow relevant. People with a little bit of information on the subject will know that Islam has been around for less than 1500 years and will instantly recognize your post as fear mongering and dismiss it with the derision it deserves. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 For the most part, I agree with you, but I don't think it's a case that "Muslims do it more than others". Who's to say that if the region was primarily Christian, with exactly the same political situations, there wouldn't equally be Christian extremists engaging in worldwide terrorism? The context matters, the religion provides justification and rationalization, but it is not the reason. There's a lot of unrest in that region, decades of oppressive rule, extreme poverty alongside extreme wealth, meddling by Western powers, the Arab Spring attempt at gaining freedom from oppression, and the rise of Islamic extremists. You can't ignore all those factors with "They're like this because their holy book tells them to be". The Middle East...all of it at one time...was PREDOMINANTLY Christian. Then something happened. Can you take a guess as to what? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 People with a little bit of information on the subject will know that Islam has been around for less than 1500 years and will instantly recognize your post as fear mongering and dismiss it with the derision it deserves. Don't blame the boy, Burns. He knows a good joke when he sees one. ---Colonel Sherman T. Potter Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
drummindiver Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Right. I could never condone demonizing a specific group. Those Muslims who don't believe women should be treated differently than men, those who don't believe blasphemers should be punished, those who are okay with gay marriage, rampant cartoonists and atheists who think their religion is just as loopy as anyone else's, are welcome in my house. Meanwhile I reserve the right to call any of the others barbaric religious primitives. Same as any other religion that believes those things. No distinction. Nutters are nutters, barbarians are barbarians. What do I think of White Supremacists? Same as I think of Islamists. I have the utmost contempt for them all. Edit> The difference is, now that I read that back, is that there aren't entire countries run by White Supremacists, with their laws based on their religion. None that come to mind, anyway. I'm willing to be corrected if you know of any. Islamists, on the other hand... South Africa at one time, and look at the contempt they were held in.The whole world condemned them. Why not the same for the Islamists doing the same thing?
Big Guy Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 South Africa at one time, and look at the contempt they were held in.The whole world condemned them. Why not the same for the Islamists doing the same thing? I agree. And what about the Israelis doing the same thing? Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Who's to say that if the region was primarily Christian, with exactly the same political situations, there wouldn't equally be Christian extremists engaging in worldwide terrorism? Who's to say space aliens aren't living in Justin Trudeau's ass? Nothing, really, but nothing to say they are either. You seem to be blithely ignoring the fact Muslim terrorists are a world wide phenomenon. They aren't simply in the ME, but throughout the world wherever you find Musims, from southeast Asia through China through India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, through the ME and onto North Africa, and into Europe. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 I agree. And what about the Israelis doing the same thing? Israel isn't an Apartheid state like the Arab countries all are. Israel had the misfortune of winning a war the Arabs started. Had they lost, there wouldn't be any of this fuss as the Jews would all be dead. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Who's to say space aliens aren't living in Justin Trudeau's ass? Nothing, really, but nothing to say they are either. You seem to be blithely ignoring the fact Muslim terrorists are a world wide phenomenon. They aren't simply in the ME, but throughout the world wherever you find Musims, from southeast Asia through China through India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, through the ME and onto North Africa, and into Europe. As I pointed out to the lady, the Middle East was Christian...then something happened. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 The Middle East...all of it at one time...was PREDOMINANTLY Christian. Then something happened. Can you take a guess as to what? People were probably getting fed up with Christian B.S. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Shady Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 People were probably getting fed up with Christian B.S. LOL, yeah that must be it!
eyeball Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 What do you think it was? A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 A fellow named Omar. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Well...and two other fellows...both famous...but who played only supporting roles. Turns out all of today's problems in the Middle East are about who a fellow named Abu Bakr appointed as his successor. Some wanted a man named Ali who performed Muhammad's ghusl before his prayers. Others wanted the able general and companion, Omar, appointed Abu Bakr's successor for practical reasons. Omar won-out and Abu Bakr appointed him succeeding Caliph. The Shia-Sunni rift was created. Omar went on to capture most of the Middle East. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) So....who's side are we on? The figurative "we" that is. Edited December 30, 2015 by eyeball A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 Depends...are you a Person of the Book, a Polytheist or a despised atheist? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
ReeferMadness Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 So....who's side are we on? The figurative "we" that is. I voted for Kodos. Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
DogOnPorch Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 I voted for Kodos. Well...if you're any of the things I mentioned...plus women and homosexuals...no doubt a few more: dogs for example...then you're not on either Shia or Sunni Islam's side. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Guest Posted December 30, 2015 Report Posted December 30, 2015 People were probably getting fed up with Christian B.S. It was Christianophobia. Running rampant!
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts