Islamophobia in Canada

[Argus]

I find it interesting that you group me with such people. I have persistently pointed out to you that I don't fall into the groups that you construct to rationalize your world view on this topic.

I said nothing specifically about you. Merely noted this as an aspect of the usual conversational back and forth on this site and in politics in general. I understand how you would not want to described as being on the Left notwithstanding that virtually everyone on this web site would not hesitate to place you there given your stated views.

Religious freedom is a principle, a maxim. While there are indeed grey areas that are subject to discussion, there should be no differentiation between the standards we use to evaluate these questions.

Meaning what? That all religions are equal? I suppose under the law they are, and should be. All should be held to the same standards.

Again, you feel some need to imply that I would judge "brown" people vs "white" people differently as they arrive here. It's indicative of not being able to say anything directly about my viewpoints on these topics.

Well, given I wasn't commenting directly on YOUR views, that's not an issue to me. I was merely stating it as something I have often seen manifested in these conversations. Where people, generally from the Left, will rush to defend the most socially conservative viewpoints being held by people who aren't 'old stock' where they would be most unlikely to be rushing forward to defend some white gay hater who believes gay people should all be imprisoned.

And Christian culture too.

And once more we see this determination to paper over the excesses of Islam by mentioning Christianity's past abuses or present minor abuses.

Example, people bringing up abortion violence in the US to counter suggestions of Islamic terrorism. Yet there have only been 11 people killed in attacks by extremists on abortion providers since 1977. There have likely been more people killed by Islamic fanatics this morning alone.

Don't forget the University in Canada that disallowed homosexual couples, even married ones. And also please remember that I defended that Unviersity's right to do so.

I think a lot of people are willing to allow a religion to behave more rigidly within the confines of its own community places, churches, community centers, schools, etc. How else to excuse the internal discriminator behavour of Mormons, Hassidics, and other sects.

[Argus]

If you had read what I posted you would understand I was not talking about Nazi's, I was talking about the Yugoslav Holocaust. That was run by Christians and in many cases they didn't have the decency the Nazi's had to at least gas their victims before they burned them.

And again, you are attempting to suggest this was some kind of religious inspired crusade when it was nothing of the kind. It was simply the German Nazis, having invaded Yugoslavia, carrying out their usual butchery.

The destruction of Serbian Jews by the Nazis was carried out in 2 distinct phases. The first, which lasted between July and November 1941 involved the murder of Jewish men, who were shot as part of retaliatory executions carried out by German forces in response to the rising anti-Nazi, partisan insurgency in Serbia. In October 1941. the German general, Franz Böhme, ordered the execution of 100 civilians for every German soldier killed and 50 for every wounded.[7] Böhme's order stated that hostages are to be drawn from 'all Communists, people suspected of being Communists, all Jews, and a given number of nationalist and democratically minded inhabitants'. Altogether some 30.000 people were executed by the Nazi's during the first 2 months of this policy, including nearly all Serbian Jewish males, as well as tens of thousands of Serbs.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Serbia

[Michael Hardner]

I said nothing specifically about you.

You commented on my post with "I find it interesting the degree of patience some have..."

Why make that comment on my words, if it had nothing to do with me ?

... virtually everyone on this web site would not hesitate to place you there given your stated views.

Virtually - sure. As a facilitator I also get accused of right-wing bias so...

All should be held to the same standards.

Agreed.

I think a lot of people are willing to allow a religion to behave more rigidly within the confines of its own community places, churches, community centers, schools, etc. How else to excuse the internal discriminator behavour of Mormons, Hassidics, and other sects.

I don't think people see schools, and hospitals as 'community places'. My definition would be that 'community places' are not places that the general public has to use, even in times of distress. I don't think religious hospitals are a good idea.

[On Guard for Thee]

And again, you are attempting to suggest this was some kind of religious inspired crusade when it was nothing of the kind. It was simply the German Nazis, having invaded Yugoslavia, carrying out their usual butchery.

The destruction of Serbian Jews by the Nazis was carried out in 2 distinct phases. The first, which lasted between July and November 1941 involved the murder of Jewish men, who were shot as part of retaliatory executions carried out by German forces in response to the rising anti-Nazi, partisan insurgency in Serbia. In October 1941. the German general, Franz Böhme, ordered the execution of 100 civilians for every German soldier killed and 50 for every wounded.[7] Böhme's order stated that hostages are to be drawn from 'all Communists, people suspected of being Communists, all Jews, and a given number of nationalist and democratically minded inhabitants'. Altogether some 30.000 people were executed by the Nazi's during the first 2 months of this policy, including nearly all Serbian Jewish males, as well as tens of thousands of Serbs.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Serbia

I think the fact what I'm talking about was named the Catholic Ustashe, was run by an archbishop Stepinac and supported by the Vatican makes it something of the kind.

[Argus]

I think the fact what I'm talking about was named the Catholic Ustashe, was run by an archbishop Stepinac and supported by the Vatican makes it something of the kind.

Keep spinning that..

On 6 April 1941, Nazi Germany invaded Yugoslavia and Greece.^[6] In their military campaign, the Axis forces exploited ethnic divisions in Yugoslavia, and presented themselves as liberators of the Croats. The then-victorious Axis powers set up a puppet state, the Independent State of Croatia, which included Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the parts of Dalmatia not annexed to Italy.^[5] Maček refused to collaborate as a puppet ruler, and Pavelić's Ustaše were installed in power. In Pavelić, Hitler found an ally.^[6]

Initially there was enthusiasm for Croatian independence, but the state was in fact under occupation by the German and Italian armies, while the Ustaša commenced a ruthless persecution of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and dissident Croats.^[7] Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac of Zagreb welcomed Croat independence in 1941, but subsequently condemned Croat atrocities against both Serbs and Jews, and involved himself in personally saving Jews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e

[On Guard for Thee]

Keep spinning that..

On 6 April 1941, Nazi Germany invaded Yugoslavia and Greece.^[6] In their military campaign, the Axis forces exploited ethnic divisions in Yugoslavia, and presented themselves as liberators of the Croats. The then-victorious Axis powers set up a puppet state, the Independent State of Croatia, which included Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the parts of Dalmatia not annexed to Italy.^[5] Maček refused to collaborate as a puppet ruler, and Pavelić's Ustaše were installed in power. In Pavelić, Hitler found an ally.^[6]

Initially there was enthusiasm for Croatian independence, but the state was in fact under occupation by the German and Italian armies, while the Ustaša commenced a ruthless persecution of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and dissident Croats.^[7] Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac of Zagreb welcomed Croat independence in 1941, but subsequently condemned Croat atrocities against both Serbs and Jews, and involved himself in personally saving Jews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e

20th Century Church Atrocities

Catholic extermination camps

Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]

[DogOnPorch]

Don't forget the Srbosjek. The Ustase used to hold competitions in its use at Jasenovac.

[Argus]

20th Century Church Atrocities

Catholic extermination camps

Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

Paveli was a German puppet installed and supported by German troops and carrying out German orders. He made one visit to the pope, early on, hoping to get recognition for the new state. He failed. The pope refused to recognize him, and the Catholic hierarchy within that area opposed the pogroms.

In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar

Who was defrocked by the Catholic church in 1942, and hanged after the war.

Yes, some lower level clergy were involved, but the control of the RC church over lower members of the clergy (who were often fairly ignorant) was hardly absolute given the situation at hand in Nazi controlled lands.

[On Guard for Thee]

Yes, some lower level clergy were involved, but the control of the RC church over lower members of the clergy (who were often fairly ignorant) was hardly absolute given the situation at hand in Nazi controlled lands.

I would hardly call the pope a lower level clergy, but I understand you want to do everything to protect your church.

[dialamah]

FGM is not part of the civilized world, and I'm an atheist so if you think you're hurting my feelings or something with your ridiculous claims about the Jews and Christians as bigtime FGM'ers you're barking up the wrong tree. And you're wrong again, I don't recall seeing anything you said in your post that was true.

I agree FGM has no part of a civilized world. But it is a cultural thing, practiced by both Christians and Muslims in that part of the world, even in countries where it is illegal. In that region, a Christian girl is at exactly the same risk of FGM as a Muslim girl.

Interesting study done among Ethiopian Jews who had emigrated to Israel and Bedouin tribes regarding FGM found that among the Bedouin tribes, FGM is practiced almost universally but consisted of small scar only, no actual damage to a woman's genital area. Among Jews in the study, a full clitoral amputation was done. Even better, both groups had stopped the practice in a follow up study.

"The conclusion of this study was that the severity of the operation performed had no relation to the social and cultural adherence to the operation, since the Ethiopian Jews who practiced a more severe form of the operation intended to abandon this practice while the Muslim Bedouin who had a much milder form intended to continue it. A follow-up study in 2009 of the Bedouin population of southern Israel has found that FGM had disappeared, both by self-report of women under the age of 30, and by physical examination of women under the age of 30 in an obstetrical clinic."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23314088

[Army Guy]

How recent does a change have to have happened for us to look down our noses at other cultures who aren't there yet ?

Does the fact that we have seen gay marriage come into our culture in the last 5 years makes us that much more evolved ?

Take the blinders off Michael, go back as far as you want, yesterday, 200 years ago does it really matter.....and with an open mind and compare western culture with middle eastern culture.....line by line.....ask your self which one is more tolerant....which one is constantly changing, which one is moving forward.....ask your self where you would prefer to live and why? ....I'd would go even further and say it is less about culture, and more about religion.....Islam controls almost every aspect of a muslim's life....it forms the building blocks for everything they do....and it has not changed or been updated , or modernized since it's inception.....Because it is forbidden to do so....it will never grow, it will never be modernized...

So how do we expect to have them grow, when it is forbidden to. It's not me how is looking down my nose at them....it's me looking at the rpoblem and saying there it is.....how do you fix it.....

Some my ask why do they need to fix it....just because i don't like it.....because they are no longer just in another country doing this to each other ....they are in my neighborhood and it concerns me....and many more Canadians....

[Michael Hardner]

Take the blinders off Michael, go back as far as you want, yesterday, 200 years ago does it really matter.....and with an open mind and compare western culture with middle eastern culture.....

You mean like Israel ? Look, nobody is stopping you from feeling superior to other people, but I have to point out that pride is a sin. My point stands...

"It's not me how is looking down my nose at them..."

There was a particular aspect to my comment on smugness that you missed.

[drummindiver]

I guess if you want to try and limit it to 2 years you might be OK. If you want to be a bit or realistic you don't need to go back 500 years, just back to the Catholic extermination camps in WW2, or what they did in Vietnam or Rwanda. As I say, the sooer we get rid o all this religious crap the better we all will be.

Totally disengenous, but nice try.

The exterminations were not done in the name of Catholicism.

The atrocities we are living through now are done in the name of an ideology.

Allahu Ahkbar, OGFT.

[On Guard for Thee]

Totally disengenous, but nice try.

The exterminations were not done in the name of Catholicism.

The atrocities we are living through now are done in the name of an ideology.

Allahu Ahkbar, OGFT.

The exterminations were done at the hands of Catholics, high level ones at that. Navel gaze all you like but that is where the rubber hits the road.

[drummindiver]

If you had read what I posted you would understand I was not talking about Nazi's, I was talking about the Yugoslav Holocaust. That was run by Christians and in many cases they didn't have the decency the Nazi's had to at least gas their victims before they burned them.

`Just back to the Catholic extermination camps in WW2`

Yes, how could anybody not know you were talking about those famous Yugolsav WWII extermination camps coughbs cough

[drummindiver]

The exterminations were done at the hands of Catholics, high level ones at that. Navel gaze all you like but that is where the rubber hits the road.

Again, still not done in the name of Catholicism.

Just like Stalin didn`t kill in the name of Atheism.

And still, most of what you say is just wrong.

Òne in three germans were Catholic. The Church in Germany had spoken against the rise of Nazism, but the Catholic aligned Centre Party capitulated in 1933 and was banned. Several key Nazis, including Hitler, had been raised Catholic, but became hostile to the Church in adulthood. While Article 24 of the NSDAP party platform called for conditional toleration of Christian denominations and the 1933 Reichskonkordat treaty with the Vatican purported to guarantee religious freedom for Catholics, the Nazis were essentially hostile to Christianity and the Catholic Church faced persecution in Nazi Germany

[On Guard for Thee]

`Just back to the Catholic extermination camps in WW2`

Yes, how could anybody not know you were talking about those famous Yugolsav WWII extermination camps coughbs cough

Perhaps because a lot of people don't know they existed?

[On Guard for Thee]

Again, still not done in the name of Catholicism.

Just like Stalin didn`t kill in the name of Atheism.

And still, most of what you say is just wrong.

Òne in three germans were Catholic. The Church in Germany had spoken against the rise of Nazism, but the Catholic aligned Centre Party capitulated in 1933 and was banned. Several key Nazis, including Hitler, had been raised Catholic, but became hostile to the Church in adulthood. While Article 24 of the NSDAP party platform called for conditional toleration of Christian denominations and the 1933 Reichskonkordat treaty with the Vatican purported to guarantee religious freedom for Catholics, the Nazis were essentially hostile to Christianity and the Catholic Church faced persecution in Nazi Germany

Many high ranking Nazis were helped out of the country to SA after the war. Many through the Vatican. When they weren't running their own extermination camps, they were colluding and aiding others who did. There's more rubber hitting the road.

[drummindiver]

Perhaps because a lot of people don't know they existed?

Right. So, when people say extermination camps, you think Poland.

If you know they exist, you hear extermination camp, you think Poland.

It still remains, that the extermination of Jews was not done in the name of Catholicism, whether in Jasenovac, Majdanek, Sachsenhausen, Mauthausen, or any of the other camps.

[notca]

Take the blinders off Michael, go back as far as you want, yesterday, 200 years ago does it really matter.....and with an open mind and compare western culture with middle eastern culture.....line by line.....ask your self which one is more tolerant....which one is constantly changing, which one is moving forward.....ask your self where you would prefer to live and why? ....I'd would go even further and say it is less about culture, and more about religion.....Islam controls almost every aspect of a muslim's life....it forms the building blocks for everything they do....and it has not changed or been updated , or modernized since it's inception.....Because it is forbidden to do so....it will never grow, it will never be modernized...

So how do we expect to have them grow, when it is forbidden to. It's not me how is looking down my nose at them....it's me looking at the rpoblem and saying there it is.....how do you fix it.....

Some my ask why do they need to fix it....just because i don't like it.....because they are no longer just in another country doing this to each other ....they are in my neighborhood and it concerns me....and many more Canadians....

You might as well shout down a black hole as try to have a civilized, focused debate with people who cannot tolerate any view that they don't agree with.

They act like ISIS, insisting everyone 'convert' to their way of thinking or else shut the hell up!

[drummindiver]

Many high ranking Nazis were helped out of the country to SA after the war. Many through the Vatican. When they weren't running their own extermination camps, they were colluding and aiding others who did. There's more rubber hitting the road.

Thousands fled.

800 were helped by the Vatican.

Again, what`s your point.

To me, it`s just another in a long list why I`m an atheist.

[Army Guy]

You mean like Israel ? Look, nobody is stopping you from feeling superior to other people, but I have to point out that pride is a sin. My point stands...

"It's not me how is looking down my nose at them..."

There was a particular aspect to my comment on smugness that you missed.

You mean like Israel ? Look, nobody is stopping you from feeling superior to other people, but I have to point out that pride is a sin. My point stands...

"It's not me how is looking down my nose at them..."

There was a particular aspect to my comment on smugness that you missed.

Would you consider Israel part of western culture ? While they may have more western values than other middle eastern countries i don't think Jews themselves consider themselves to be part of that western community....

Your confusing "feeling Superior" with concern may be even fear.......it is not the muslim people i have a problem with....it is their religion.....which is based on that very same principle you accuse me off, feeling Superior, preaching hate, violence, I as a christian am expected to do what exactly , turn the other cheek, hope one day that Islam is modernized....

May i ask this question, why is it i am not allow to judge Islam, but you can judge me as smug or feeling Superior...if i'm wrong about anything i've said then prove i am....

[Michael Hardner]

You may do whatever you like.

[Rue]

Michael Harder your response for me is a crock. The fact someone criticizes certain aspects of Muslim society, certain Islamic doctrine, its social failures, its political failures, does not mean one turns their nose down at Islam or Islamic society.

You once again impose your personal bias and prejudice on others inventing a standard of what you consider politically unacceptable and then projecting it on others. Enough. Criticizing Islam or Islamic society is not condescending.

You want to accuse someone of being smug or condescending start with your very post that accuses others of being just that.

Where do you get off calling anyone smug, condescending? Where? What gives you that right? Do you have a monopoly on what is allowed to be questioned.

Get off your sanctimonious politically correct soap box. This is a damn political forum. People express opinions and criticize others. Its interesting how you never intervene on criticism unless its against Islamic society. Why? Where have you been when comments have been made about Jewish or Christian values that are criticized? Don't even begin to suggest you are impartial and hold everyone to this standard of sanctimony you now are on about Muslims.

You are not their saviour, their wing man, their protector. Get off your arbitrary judging of others who challenge certain Muslim social or political failures.

Thank you.

[Rue]

Since I disagree with Dialamah on many things I am th frst to support him when I can as well and I concur with his comments on FGM.

Here is the point. No religion has a monopoly on righteousness. The issue somee of us have on this post is that certain people have no problem with criticizing Judaism or Christianity but if its done with Islam, then an donly then the politically correct try shut it down using words like Islamaphobia which to me is nothing more than a device used to censor freedom of speech to criticize.

Any religion is capable of being criticized. Save your b.s. Muslim card for someone else if you want to try shut me up for criticizing Islamic extremism or many of its doctrine.

Do not patronize me and do not attempt to label me. I am no more a Christianaphobe or a Jewaphobe then I am an Islamaphobe.

I criticize them all with the same standards. I only can speak for myself.

If someone has the integrity to go find one thread from me where I said I hated all Muslims, just one, I will apologize.

Good luck finding it.