Islamophobia in Canada

[Argus]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

not all Christians are fundamentalist

not all Muslims are fundamentalist

who knew?

And no one has suggested all Christians or Muslims are fundamentalists. Are you denying there ARE fundamentalists? And how would one recognize a Muslim who was a fundamentalist? Well, to start with they would, unlike more moderate Muslims, wear religious garb everywhere they went.

[dialamah]

8 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

yeah well

many posters here are lumping in a lot of posters making simple critiques of Islam

with those who think Muslims are a monolith

turning the critics of Islam into a monolith

while decrying turning a group into a monolith as hateful and ignorant

put down the broad brush

before talking down to others for using an overly broad brush

Michael Hardner is the biggest offender

Well, they could be more specifically named, of course, but that might result in caution or sanction from moderators.  There are about half dozen, plus BCSapper who remains perpetually confused but at least not deliberately hateful.  

Propaganda requires the painting of a group with a very broad brush, whether it's to denigrate Jews, Christians, gays or Muslims.  People who pretend "criticising Islam" is the same as assuming being Muslim = murderer and a driving goal to take over (if not now then certainly as soon as they get to x% of a country) create a space in which a mentally unbalanced person will think it's necessary to make a statement by driving over a family.  The same kind of propaganda gets young men and women to strap on vests and make a similar statement with their own lives and as many other lives as they can.

It's really sad.  

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

And no one has suggested all Christians or Muslims are fundamentalists. Are you denying there ARE fundamentalists? And how would one recognize a Muslim who was a fundamentalist? Well, to start with they would, unlike more moderate Muslims, wear religious garb everywhere they went.

many who wear religious garb aren't fundamentalist though

so that is bad indicator

might want to look for a better one

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

People who pretend "criticising Islam" is the same as assuming being Muslim = murderer and a driving goal to take over (if not now then certainly as soon as they get to x% of a country) create a space in which a mentally unbalanced person will think it's necessary to make a statement by driving over a family.

no they don't

the mentally unbalanced person who wants to drive over a family

can come up with any reason to do so

someone stating a hateful opinion you don't like

is not incitement to violence

[Yzermandius19]

if I go out and run down 10 religious people with a car

and say it's because dialamah said that high religiosity is responsible for poor treatment of human beings

that isn't your fault, and you didn't incite any violence

you are not responsible for my actions, I am responsible for my actions, whether I blame you for them, or not

so stop blaming someone for a crazy person taking them out of context to justify horrible acts of violence already

it makes no sense whatsoever

 

if someone goes and shoots up parliament, and says it was because Yzermandius19 talked trash about Confederation on this forum

that isn't my fault, it's the fault of the mass shooter

I am not responsible for their actions, they are responsible for their actions, whether they blame me for them, or not

see how that works?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[dialamah]

25 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Religion is dying in the west precisely because it is free.  

And - another fly in the Muslim-haters soup - Muslims leave the faith at the same (high) rate that Christians do.  It's almost like they're human beings, can you imagine ?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

I regularly see posts on Reddit from young people, in both Western and non-Western countries who can't wait to leave their home, so they can freely express their atheism.  Sometimes it means just the family home; sometimes it means their entire country.  These seem to be mostly from Christian and Muslim homes, with a sprinkling of others.  

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

1. Propaganda requires the painting of a group with a very broad brush, whether it's to denigrate Jews, Christians, gays or Muslims.  People who pretend "criticising Islam" is the same as assuming being Muslim = murderer and a driving goal to take over (if not now then certainly as soon as they get to x% of a country) create a space in which a mentally unbalanced person will think it's necessary to make a statement by driving over a family. 

2. The same kind of propaganda gets young men and women to strap on vests and make a similar statement with their own lives and as many other lives as they can.

3. It's really sad.  

1.  This is exactly right.  Furthermore the same people who call branding individual Muslims as inhuman and irredeemable  "Criticizing Islam" will call criticism of Israel "anti-Semitic" or racist.   People who argue dishonestly should really be labelled for what they are, ie. Muslim haters, and ignored as much as your outrage can stomach it.

2. Similar, yes.  Dehumanizing people and progressing a "logical" argument from there.

3. I would add "baffling" and "outrageous"

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

if I go out and run down 10 religious people with a car

and say it's because dialamah said that high religiosity is responsible for poor treatment of human beings

that isn't your fault, and you didn't incite any violence

so stop blaming someone for a crazy person taking them out of context to justify horrible acts of violence already

it makes no sense whatsoever

if someone goes and shoots up parliament, and says it was because Yzermandius19 talked trash about Confederation on this forum

that isn't my fault, it's the fault of the mass shooter

I am not responsible for their actions, they are responsible for their actions

see how that works?

Look up how propaganda works.  It's not as simple as "dialamah said X, so I did Y".

It's that as my voice is added to many other voices saying the same thing, the likelihood of action by someone increases.

Not to mention that saying "Islam is a misogynistic religion as evidenced by its teaching about a gender roles in society; this must be changed" is a lot different than saying "A woman in a hijab supports killing gay people".  One is a criticism; the other paints with a very broad brush and is simply hate and fear-mongering.

[Yzermandius19]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Look up how propaganda works.  It's not as simple as "dialamah said X, so I did Y".

I know how propaganda works

the people pushing propaganda

are not responsible for the people who use that propaganda

to justify their actions

people are responsible for their own actions

propaganda or no propaganda

 

propaganda is free speech

and it isn't responsible for violence

regardless of whether some people

claim that speech inspired their acts of violence

or not

regardless of whether that speech was hate and fearmongering

or not

 

blaming the speech

it's like blaming a mass shooting

on Grand Theft Auto

get a grip, Jack Thompson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist)

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right... but there's this idea of freedom of religion, association, expression, and it's morally repugnant to disparage people based on such things...  I don't think we should 'villify' political groups per se, unless they're explicitly directed to morally repugnant goals, like the KKK.

2. The idea that Muslims are a special type of human that can't integrate is not borne out in fact. The idea that a Muslim can't exist in western society is ridiculous, that religious pluralism doesn't work with Islam ... not real.   In any case, you should still be able to make the case that the precepts of the religion are incompatible without inspiring hate.  People have failed to do this, and instead seek to inflame and villify.

3. Ok, again you can make the case about flawed policies without depicting humans as being inherently evil.

4. They're already here.  They're posting here.  They think that 'Criticizing Islam' means depicting people as irredeemable and unable to live in liberal society, unlike every other person on earth.  


3. 

1.  Do you really think we have freedom of religion, In Canada the majority of Canadians are not religious or closely follow it so it is not a big deal..... lets just take Christianity for a second, and topics like abortion, or gay marriage, birth control we as a society have already ruled on those topics, and for the most part they are off limits, non negotiable depending on which political group you talk to. And those that take religion seriously their voices are not being heard, and they believe that killing unborn babies is morally repugnant. Canadians don't take to change that well.

2. A lot of Muslims can integrate just fine, depending on which country they came from, and how closely they follow their religion....countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Libya, Syria  and others and hot zones where they have strong religious beliefs that do not mix with ours.... where conflict is a normal way of life...And yet we do not have a way to screen this extremist or person that have a much different view than we do, on life, women, etc. For instance when Justin brought back his quota of Syrian refuges the military was providing logistics and staff to support immigration personal, a high percentage of the applicants did not have any ID or passports with them, and with no way to verify who they where, any criminal records anything that could eliminate them as applicants, top this off with justins tight time lines and we have a disaster. Why take the risk...

3. Humans are inherently evil, and middle eastern countries take all of that to a new level, on a regular basis, not everyone from those countries are evil  by normal Canadian standards, but it is common practice.

 

 

[dialamah]

17 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

I know how propaganda works

the people pushing propaganda

are not responsible for the people who use that propaganda

to justify their actions

people are responsible for their own actions

propaganda or no propaganda

Well, if that's your stance, you are just wrong.  Propaganda is effective; if it were not, genocides would not happen because genocide requires that the people being exterminated are dehumanized first.  Dehumanizing requires painting the targetted group with a broad brush to demonstrate how "unlike us", immoral and dangerous they are.  That paves the way for broad support to "get rid of them by any means necessary".  

Sure, it's not any "individual's" fault if some nutcase goes out and runs over a family.  But if your voice is among those dehumanizing Muslims, then you have helped create a space in which someone can see such action as necessary.  

It's no different than the way the Bible or Koran create a space in which "some" people will decide it's neccessary to beat your wife or kill your gay son.  

Edited June 8, 2021 by dialamah

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

We'll, if that's your stance, you are just wrong.  Propaganda is effective; if it were not, genocides would not happen because genocide requires that the people being exterminated are dehumanized first.  Dehumanizing requires painting the targetted group with a broad brush to demonstrate how "unlike us", immoral and dangerous they are.  That paves the way for broad support to "get rid of them by any means necessary".  

Sure, it's not any "individual's" fault if some nutcase goes out and runs over a family.  But if your voice is among those dehumanizing Muslims, then you have helped create a space in which someone can see such action as necessary.  

It's no different than the way the Bible or Koran create a space in which "some" people will decide it's ok to beat your wife or kill your gay son.

propaganda works

but propaganda didn't kill anyone

those who hate Muslims

don't give anyone a space to kill Muslims

those killing Muslims

gave themselves the space to kill Muslims

their rationale for killing them

is not relevant

they can come up with any excuse

if they are really determined to do it

whether anyone voices hatred of Muslims or not

the Bible doesn't give anyone space to beat their wives or gay son

the wife and son beaters gave themselves that space

it's not the bible's fault

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[dialamah]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

propaganda works

but propaganda didn't kill anyone

those who hate Muslims

don't give anyone a space to kill Muslims

those killing Muslims

gave themselves the space to kill Muslims

their rationale for killing them

is not relevant

they can come up with any excuse

if they are really determined to do it

whether anyone voices hatred of Muslims or not

Most people consider rationale for killing, aka motive, as pretty important but here you are saying it's irrelevant?  Are you sure that's what you mean?

And why would propaganda exist at all, if it didn't result in some kind of "success"?

[Yzermandius19]

Grand Theft Auto III

is not responsible for Dustin Lynch

murdering JoLynn Mishne

regardless of his GTA III obsession

I don't care what Jack Thompson or dialamah says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist)#Grand_Theft_Auto

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And why would propaganda exist at all, if it didn't result in some kind of "success"?

whether it is successful or not

has no bearing on who is responsible for murdering Muslim's

that lies squarely at the feet of the murderers themselves

it's not the Bible's fault, it's not the Quran's fault

it's not Grand Theft Auto's fault, it's not Marilyn Manson's fault

it's not PewDiePie's fault

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

whether it is successful or not

has no bearing on who is responsible for murdering Muslim's

that lies squarely at the feet of the murderers themselves

it's not the Bible's fault, it's not the Quran's fault

it's not GTA's fault, it's not Marilyn Manson's fault

it's not PewDiePie's fault

So, your stance is now that propaganda only works if it's not Muslims being killed?  

[Yzermandius19]

Just now, dialamah said:

So, your stance is now that propaganda only works if it's not Muslims being killed?  

okay Cathy Newman

 

[Yzermandius19]

the responsibility for murdering Muslims

lies squarely at the feet of the murderers themselves

that shouldn't be hard to understand

no need for silly

"so, what you're saying is..." games

it's a very simple statement

stop trying to twist my words into something abhorrent

because you don't like my argument

strawman is a fallacy for a reason

don't be Cathy Newman in the Jordan Peterson interview

it's not a good look

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 And why would propaganda exist at all, if it didn't result in some kind of "success"?

No, no, no you see the Nazis were just "criticizing Judaism" and ... well ... some crazies took it the wrong way

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No, no, no you see the Nazis were just "criticizing Judaism" and ... well ... some crazies took it the wrong way

free speech didn't kill any Jews

Nazi's did though

while suppressing the free speech to criticize the killing 

I might add

the blame is with the Nazi's

not the propaganda

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the responsibility for murdering Muslims

lies squarely at the feet of the murderers themselves

that shouldn't be hard to understand

no need for silly

"so, what you're saying is..." games

it's a very simple statement

stop trying to twist my words into something abhorrent

because you don't like my argument

strawman is a fallacy for a reason

knock it off

Shrugs.  Yeah, the killer is responsible for the killings.  He will have to have consequences.

People who spread hate and fear are responsible for the hate and fear they spread, especially when it leads to nutcases "taking action", as BCSapper said.  Those people need to be called out.

This applies whether the hate-spreader is preaching in a mosque, a church or online.

Spreading hate/fear directed toward a specific group is connected to action by nutcases taking action against that group.   I'm surprised you are denying that connection.  

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Shrugs.  Yeah, the killer is responsible for the killings.  He will have to have consequences.

People who spread hate and fear are responsible for the hate and fear they spread, especially when it leads to nutcases "taking action", as BCSapper said.  Those people need to be called out.

This applies whether the hate-spreader is preaching in a mosque, a church or online.

Spreading hate/fear directed toward a specific group is connected to action by nutcases taking action against that group.   I'm surprised you are denying that connection.  

go ahead, call them out

but it's still free speech

and they should not be prosecuted for it

unless it crosses the threshold of incitement to violence

if a nutcase is looking for a reason to kill people, they will find one

even if no one ever spread hate or fear toward a specific group

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

hate speech killing people is not the problem

people killing people is the problem

blaming speech for people being murdered is worse

than blaming the tool they used to kill people for the murder

which is bad enough

the problem is the person

not the words or the inanimate object

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

And, weirdly, people also blame the Koran for "causing" violence.    People quoting the Koran and calling for death to infidels is the same thing as people painting Muslims as inhumans who must be banned, exterminated.

 

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

And, weirdly, people also blame the Koran for "causing" violence.    People quoting the Koran and calling for death to infidels is the same thing as people painting Muslims as inhumans who must be banned, exterminated.

weirdly, people also blame The Bible for "causing" violence, while the Quran gets a pass

when neither cause violence just because some people who hold those books in high regard commit violent acts in their name

weirdly, some people blame others for dehumanizing people, while dehumanizing people far more than those they are accusing of dehumanizing others

cognitive dissonance is helluva drug

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19