Islamophobia in Canada

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, dialamah said:

  Because in your mind, you can't be Muslim and also be moderate.  

That's because they see Muslims as being unlike other humans.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

You don't, though.  You, specifically, assume that every Muslim who doesn't support and condone violence, terror, misogyny, homophobia is lying.  Because in your mind, you can't be Muslim and also be moderate.  

First, no I don't.

Second, any Christian who believed in the actual word of the Bible, from it's original interpretation, would be dangerous. Wouldn't they? The Christian church has gone through numerous reformations and has reinterpreted the meaning of much of the parables and stories in the bible, and no mainstream Christian organization today teaches that followers must obey every word of the bible as written. Muslims on the other hand, believe the Koran is the literal word of God, and as such everything in the Koran has to be taken deadly seriously. Such people are, of course, as potentially dangerous as fundamentalist Christians who believe in the literal Bible. Moreso because most Muslims are immigrants from non-Western societies which do not have the same culture of acceptance and tolerance of differing views.

[Argus]

30 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Just as "the left" cannot understand the racism of "the right" when it comes to any issue involving non-white people.  

The Left and it's bigoted, paternalistic attitude towards non-whites, and the growing acceptance of antisemitism among them should have no difficulty understanding racism.

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

First, no I don't.

My brother in law refuses to have a certain couple to his home, because the one time they visited, he didn't like the way the husband treated his wife.  When I brought that up as an example of a moderate Muslim, you declared either he, or I, was lying.

Yah, you do.

And the women who wear hijab?  You claim that wearing hijab is proof positive that they're the most fanatical/extreme and don't belong in Canada.  My hijab-wearing neighbor doesn't even go to Mosque, and neither does her husband.  They don't care about gays or non-believers, and they think murder is wrong - especially murder in the name of Allah.  Your assumptions about them, based solely on the hijab you'd see on her, betrays your mindset.

So yeah, you do.

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

The Left and it's bigoted, paternalistic attitude towards non-whites, and the growing acceptance of antisemitism among them should have no difficulty understanding racism.

You first, Argus.  Look in the mirror, examine your innermost self, and come back and tell "the left" how it is so racist.  

Criticizing Israeli policy toward Palestine is not the same as anti-Semitism.  But I'm not surprised you can't tell the difference.

And, just for the record, I condemn people who confuse Israeli policy with random Jews living in their country or neighborhood and think it's ok to attack or belittle Jews because they don't like what's going on there and blame Israel.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

So yeah, you do.

You are trying to use anecdotal stories to argue against issues which are much larger than that And you are doing so without logic. 

And yes,, if you are so devoted to a religion that you wear a headpiece every single day of your life everywhere you go, then I have to accept that you embrace the tenets of that religion. Which among other things calls for death for blasphemy, apostacy, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

That you believe you can see into the heart of your neighbour and know she doesn't believe what her religion says simply shows how naive you are.

[Yzermandius19]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's because they see Muslims as being unlike other humans.

all you have is ad hominem strawmen

that's your entire argument against those you disagree with on the subject

pretend they said something stupid and immoral that they never said

and impugn their morality and character over it

that way you don't need to have any point whatsoever to feel smart and have the moral high ground

step your game up

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

10 minutes ago, Argus said:

You are trying to use anecdotal stories to argue against issues which are much larger than that And you are doing so without logic. 

And yes,, if you are so devoted to a religion that you wear a headpiece every single day of your life everywhere you go, then I have to accept that you embrace the tenets of that religion. Which among other things calls for death for blasphemy, apostacy, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

That you believe you can see into the heart of your neighbour and know she doesn't believe what her religion says simply shows how naive you are.

just because someone wears a headscarf

does not necessarily mean they support stoning homosexuals

non sequitur

if you assume that just because someone adheres to Christianity

that they must assume the earth is 6000 years old

you're going to be wrong in an absolute shit ton of cases

that kind of overgeneralization is not logical

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[dialamah]

Just now, Argus said:

You are trying to use anecdotal stories to argue against issues

While you use anecdotal stories of the most extreme, presented by the media, to argue that Muslims everywhere are evil incarnate.

1 minute ago, Argus said:

And yes,, if you are so devoted to a religion that you wear a headpiece every single day of your life everywhere you go, then I have to accept that you embrace the tenets of that religion. Which among other things calls for death for blasphemy, apostacy, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

And there you go again - betraying your Islamaphobia.  That mindset is as stupid as assuming that someone who wears a cross must therefore be homophobic, believe that divorce is wrong and that women belong in the kitchen, submissive to their husband.  

What you believe about Islam is not based on anything but the most extreme interpretation, practiced by only a tiny fraction of all Muslims.  The rest, if not for the outward sign of a woman in a hijab, would be virtually indistinguishable from a conservative Christian in their views.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

While you use anecdotal stories of the most extreme, presented by the media, to argue that Muslims everywhere are evil incarnate.

The idea that people of one religion wearing religious garb is proof of extremism is anecdotal too... "my friend who wears one says..." means nothing.  All religions have garb, and all the great religions are sexist.  

It's usually the left that wants to curtain religious rights, but the extreme right-wing that wants to vilify Muslims to the point where violence against them increases.  It's shameful, and anti conservative values IMO.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

pretend they said something stupid and immoral that they never said

I don't know about you, specifically, but some posters on here have said ignorant and hateful things about Muslims.  They've assumed Muslims are a monolithic group, dedicated to murder of innocent people for the flimsiest of reasons.   As an example, see Argus' post just above, if you wear a hijab ... you must want to kill gays/non-believers.  

[Shady]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

While you use anecdotal stories of the most extreme, presented by the media, to argue that Muslims everywhere are evil incarnate.

And there you go again - betraying your Islamaphobia.  That mindset is as stupid as assuming that someone who wears a cross must therefore be homophobic, believe that divorce is wrong and that women belong in the kitchen, submissive to their husband.  

What you believe about Islam is not based on anything but the most extreme interpretation, practiced by only a tiny fraction of all Muslims.  The rest, if not for the outward sign of a woman in a hijab, would be virtually indistinguishable from a conservative Christian in their views.

I always hear this tiny fraction phrase thrown about constantly.  When you look at the surveys of actual opinions of the general Muslim population in the Middle East, it’s frightening.

[Yzermandius19]

just because a lot of religious extremists wear religious head garb

does not mean that all who wear religious head garb are religious extremists

correlation does not equal causation

that is fallacious thinking, not logical thought

[Yzermandius19]

11 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I don't know about you, specifically, but some posters on here have said ignorant and hateful things about Muslims.  They've assumed Muslims are a monolithic group, dedicated to murder of innocent people for the flimsiest of reasons.   As an example, see Argus' post just above, if you wear a hijab ... you must want to kill gays/non-believers.  

yeah well

many posters here are lumping in a lot of posters making simple critiques of Islam

with those who think Muslims are a monolith

turning the critics of Islam into a monolith

while decrying turning a group into a monolith as hateful and ignorant

put down the broad brush

before talking down to others for using an overly broad brush

Michael Hardner is the biggest offender

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Shady said:

I always hear this tiny fraction phrase thrown about constantly.  When you look at the surveys of actual opinions of the general Muslim population in the Middle East, it’s frightening.

Glad you like statistics.  The geo-political situation in foreign lands is deplorable for sure.  Let's chat on American Muslims now: Nine-in-ten Muslims proud to be American
 

Oddly, that blows away White Evangelical Christians, who actually supported overthrowing their government recently.
 

https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/findings-from-pew-research-centers-2017-survey-of-us-muslims/pf_2017-06-26_muslimamericans-00-11/

 

[Michael Hardner]

But statistics don't matter... if you hate Muslims as these posters pretty clearly do, you can find stats to back up anything.

Those who are angry about the changes in society shouldn't describe themselves as patriotic or conservative, as those types tend to trust our institutions and think pragmatically.  Real conservatives don't hysterically attack a single religion based on attributes that all religions share.  What you are is a 'reactionary'

Real conservatives think.  They don't ascribe geopolitical problems and socioeconomic problems to race and religion, to buttress their xenophobia.

I tried to explain to one such fake conservative poster why their edicts against Muslim are analogous to banning African Americans to coming to Canada... and he reported my post as accusing him of racism ! ?

There's absolutely no reason to suspect Muslims of being secretly programmed to hate the West.  The ones who come here have experienced the horrors of theocracy.  Please don't call yourself 'conservative' and eschew the value of church separated from state. 

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Shady said:

I always hear this tiny fraction phrase thrown about constantly.  When you look at the surveys of actual opinions of the general Muslim population in the Middle East, it’s frightening.

Many of the Christians in the Middle East and Africa would share very similar beliefs.  These regions are high in religiosity, and when there is high religiosity, women, children, gays and non-believers suffer.  This is as true in the Western world as it is in other regions of the world.  The difference in Western countries is that such religiosity is limited to small areas, rather than the entire society.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, dialamah said:

 The difference in Western countries is that such religiosity is limited to small areas, rather than the entire society.

Religion is dying in the west precisely because it is free.  

And - another fly in the Muslim-haters soup - Muslims leave the faith at the same (high) rate that Christians do.  It's almost like they're human beings, can you imagine ?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

[Yzermandius19]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Many of the Christians in the Middle East and Africa would share very similar beliefs.  These regions are high in religiosity, and when there is high religiosity, women, children, gays and non-believers suffer.  This is as true in the Western world as it is in other regions of the world.  The difference in Western countries is that such religiosity is limited to small areas, rather than the entire society.

the problem is not religiosity

the problem is the moral values

not how religious they are

many of the least religious places on the planet

treat women, children, gays and non-believers poorly as well

especially in comparison to the most religious places

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Shady]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Glad you like statistics.  The geo-political situation in foreign lands is deplorable for sure.  Let's chat on American Muslims now: Nine-in-ten Muslims proud to be American
 

Oddly, that blows away White Evangelical Christians, who actually supported overthrowing their government recently.
 

https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/findings-from-pew-research-centers-2017-survey-of-us-muslims/pf_2017-06-26_muslimamericans-00-11/

 

Where do Muslim’s in North America immigrate from?

[Argus]

25 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

just because someone wears a headscarf

does not necessarily mean they support stoning homosexuals

You think people will just casually wear a headscarf in Canada every day of their life and yet not be devoted to their religion? Not all Muslim women wear the headscarf. Only a minority do. The most devoted minority.

25 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

if you assume that just because someone adheres to Christianity

that they must assume the earth is 6000 years old

But fundamentalist Christians DO believe the Earth is 6,000 years old.

 

[Shady]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Many of the Christians in the Middle East and Africa would share very similar beliefs.  These regions are high in religiosity, and when there is high religiosity, women, children, gays and non-believers suffer.  This is as true in the Western world as it is in other regions of the world.  The difference in Western countries is that such religiosity is limited to small areas, rather than the entire society.

Complete nonsense.  That’s not what the surveys show, or their practices.

[Yzermandius19]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

But fundamentalist Christians DO believe the Earth is 6,000 years old.

not all Christians are fundamentalist

not all Muslims are fundamentalist

who knew?

[Argus]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Glad you like statistics.  The geo-political situation in foreign lands is deplorable for sure.  Let's chat on American Muslims now: Nine-in-ten Muslims proud to be American

And a similar survey in the UK found even more Muslims proud to be British. But a third of them still felt homosexuality should be illegal.

[Yzermandius19]

look at countries who were and are governed by left leaning atheists

who tried to repressed religious practice for example

they have treated people worse than any highly religious nations in the history of the planet

ask Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pot

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19