Islamophobia in Canada

msj · November 25, 2015

Why would they *leave* Utah, then? Why is there a huge wave of folks coming from the USA? Oppression? Violence? Good deals on Whistler accommodations?

You really don't understand my point, huh?

Smallc · November 25, 2015

Those principals do not go out the window.

Maher is a liberal as am I. We both are against the "regressive left" point of view that Freeland espouses.

I get her point. I don't agree with her point in its entirety though. Maher is more right, even if he's wrong on some points.

DogOnPorch · November 25, 2015

You really don't understand my point, huh?

Better than you. I know why Muslims are fleeing Syria. But I'm trying to grasp the conditions needed for millions of Utah residents to desire coming to Canada.

msj · November 25, 2015

Isn't this self evident? This country is full of similar people who come from vastly different backgrounds.

That's a good point about Canada.

I stopped into a Vietnamese restaurant in Drumheller and was surprised how similar it was to restaurants in Vietnam.

Yet the owner and family were watching the soccer game on the tube the same as my wife and I and their English was just fine and much better than my Vietnamese.

I should of asked if they came over in 79/80 under Joe Clark.

msj · November 25, 2015

Better than you. I know why Muslims are fleeing Syria. But I'm trying to grasp the conditions needed for millions of Utah residents to desire coming to Canada.

Giving that I was talking about Mormons immigrating from Utah to Canada rather than fleeing, no, I don't think you get the point.

DogOnPorch · November 25, 2015

South Viet-Nam was an ally of the West. Syria...not so much. Warsaw Pact more like.

msj · November 25, 2015

Ah, yes, if in doubt, conflate immigration numbers with refugee numbers and make everything sound all the more scarier.

DogOnPorch · November 25, 2015

Giving that I was talking about Mormons immigrating from Utah to Canada rather than fleeing, no, I don't think you get the point.

Again...better than you. My point is that such a move would NEVER happen. But you missed that.

msj · November 25, 2015

South Viet-Nam was an ally of the West. Syria...not so much. Warsaw Pact more like.

I don't think refugees are always based on the colour of the flag of the government they happened to be born under.

Argus · November 25, 2015

So you think getting 150,000 people from Asia (probably Buddhists and whatnot) is the same as getting 150,000 Mormons (lets take Muslim out of this) from Utah each year?

Why don't we take geographical or specific religion completely out. Do you feel it is in the interest of the society you want Canada to build to bring in thousands and thousands of extremely religious people every year? If you do not, then should we not be discouraging this in immigration?

Personally, by the way, I would not be doing anything to encourage the importation of large groups of Mormons into Canada given we have better options.

No, I clearly said that what was explicitly quoted was racist. That is different.

What was racist about it? She complained about the 'stone age mentality' which would be brought along with a lot of Muslims, and simply saw no upside in bringing them in as opposed to less religious people from elsewhere. I don't see that as being substantially different from your position except for her derisive term for them. Yours, on the other, wasn't all that great in that other topic either.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Argus

On Guard for Thee · November 25, 2015

I agree.

Really opens one's eyes to see how other people live and to have conversations with the locals (and no, not with people working at the resorts).

The problem is that conservative people are so risk averse they probably don't even like to set foot outside the resort areas.

That has been my experience often. For instance I lived a couple of months on Bogmalo in Goa India. Lovely resort, great beach, lots of European tourists, mostly Brits and Germans. Most of them only let the hotel to go to the beach and return. All you had to do was take a stroll up the road or drive into Panjim and you could actually talk to the locals and I do't ever feeling threatened.

msj · November 25, 2015

Again...better than you. My point is that such a move would NEVER happen. But you missed that.

You missed the point that my purpose of switching to Mormons was to deflate the part of the discussion about "Muslims."

As soon as we discuss Muslims people get their knickers in a knot so it was an attempt to choose another religious group that is a bit more neutral while still having some pretty fundamentalist religious ideas.

Argus · November 25, 2015

That has been my experience often. For instance I lived a couple of months on Bogmalo in Goa India. Lovely resort, great beach, lots of European tourists, mostly Brits and Germans. Most of them only let the hotel to go to the beach and return. All you had to do was take a stroll up the road or drive into Panjim and you could actually talk to the locals and I do't ever feeling threatened.

Are you female? Gay?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Argus

DogOnPorch · November 25, 2015

You missed the point that my purpose of switching to Mormons was to deflate the part of the discussion about "Muslims."

As soon as we discuss Muslims people get their knickers in a knot so it was an attempt to choose another religious group that is a bit more neutral while still having some pretty fundamentalist religious ideas.

Islam is the 500lb gorilla in the room. Not Mormonism.

On Guard for Thee · November 25, 2015

Are you female? Gay?

Are you drunk?

msj · November 25, 2015

Why don't we take geographical or specific religion completely out. Do you feel it is in the interest of the society you want Canada to build to bring in thousands and thousands of extremely religious people every year? If you do not, then should we not be discouraging this in immigration?

1) I have no problem with bringing in 250,000 people each year through a combination of immigration programs and refugee programs.

2) I think the current programs work fairly well to bring in a decent mix of people based on various demographic features. My bias would be towards young people with families. I think generally that is what our system tries to bring in.

3) Religious people are welcome to come here in large numbers - but be prepared to have your religious beliefs challenged in ways that do not involve killing other people.

4) I think most people settling in Canada have enough respect for their host nation as to abide by our customs and laws most of the time.

5) I also think most people who may appear to be religious extremists are not all that much different than the Christian living down the hallway from me. That is, "weird" for believing in a sky fairy, but otherwise just as secular as me.

Boges · November 25, 2015

Are you drunk?

Yeah because women aren't a target at all in India or anything. :rolleyes:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/india-is-in-denial-about-its-rape-culture-but-then-so-are-we-10093481.html

Also walking off the resort isn't exactly a ballsy move. Go deep into the countryside where the community isn't dependent on tourism and see how a white face is welcomed.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Boges

msj · November 25, 2015

What was racist about it? She complained about the 'stone age mentality' which would be brought along with a lot of Muslims, and simply saw no upside in bringing them in as opposed to less religious people from elsewhere. I don't see that as being substantially different from your position except for her derisive term for them. Yours, on the other, wasn't all that great in that other topic either.

Kimmy wrote: Overall, completely ignoring the issue of terrorism, I just don't see that more Muslims would be a good thing for the country. Usually it's the opposite. More Muslims usually means more problems. We've seen this in many European countries. Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside?

I'm pretty sure not all Muslims gang rape, gay bash, or burn down synagogues in their spare time.

To make a blanket statement like that is certainly racist-ish.

On Guard for Thee · November 25, 2015

Yeah because women aren't a target at all in India or anything.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/india-is-in-denial-about-its-rape-culture-but-then-so-are-we-10093481.html

Also walking off the resort isn't exactly a ballsy move. Go deep into the countryside where the community isn't dependent on tourism and see how a white face is welcomed.

That's my point, I have may times done exactly that. I have never felt unwelcome. One has to have a little savvy, in the same way you might not want to walk certain places in Vancouver at 2 am, but you learn that stuff when you get the ballsy enough to go learn something about the place you are in. Otherwise what's the use of spending money travelling?

Boges · November 25, 2015

That's my point, I have may times done exactly that. I have never felt unwelcome. One has to have a little savvy, in the same way you might not want to walk certain places in Vancouver at 2 am, but you learn that stuff when you get the ballsy enough to go learn something about the place you are in. Otherwise what's the use of spending money travelling?

Dunno, relaxing on the beach and consuming large amounts of food an alcohol for a reduced price.

I must say, when it comes to a country like Mexico, I don't shed a tear for any tourist that goes to countries where tourists don't go. If you feel brave enough, go nuts but don't expect a lot of sympathy.

I reckon this is thread shift though.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Boges

Hudson Jones · November 25, 2015

So what IS the upside?

The over 1 million Muslims in Canada. There are doctors, engineers, teachers, civil servants, etc. What is the upside of you being in Canada?

eyeball · November 25, 2015

You are asking for "slack" for the putting ppl to death for being gay.

No, that's not what I asked for at all. Not even close.

How about saying it's wrong?

You know, doing the right thing.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It's what I've been suggesting all along.

Argus · November 25, 2015

Then you should meet some more adventurous people. They might teach you something beyond just the headlines.

I have found women are generally less adventurous in terms of risks of violence being committed against them than men are.

Argus · November 25, 2015

Are you drunk?

I was being ironic. The fact you as an man, presumably straight, felt fine walking around India has no bearing on the discussion as to the misogyny or homophobia of that culture.

Argus · November 25, 2015

Kimmy wrote: Overall, completely ignoring the issue of terrorism, I just don't see that more Muslims would be a good thing for the country. Usually it's the opposite. More Muslims usually means more problems. We've seen this in many European countries. Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside?

I'm pretty sure not all Muslims gang rape, gay bash, or burn down synagogues in their spare time.

To make a blanket statement like that is certainly racist-ish.

But she didn't say they all did. She didn't even imply it. She observed the misogyny and homophobia inherent within the cultures of most Muslim nations which immigrants come from and said she saw no reason why we should bring those attitudes, which derive in large part, from their religion, here. Increasing the number of people HERE, whose attitudes come from THERE, would tend to make HERE more like THERE, which she and a lot of others, didn't see as being in her interests.

And I'd again like to point out her ignored question about what people from that region have to offer. I've previously posted stats canada information on the economic success of immigrants to Canada by source region which has shown immigrants from that area are almost at the bottom of the earnings ladder compared to immigrants from other regions. They are much less economically successful in Canada than other immigrants.