kimmy Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 40 (estimated) attackers among the 1 million plus refugees is equal to about 1.25 people within our 25,000 refugees. That's not the estimated number of attackers, that's the number of suspects they've been able to identify so far. There's a difference. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
dialamah Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) Your argument-- you're just trying to put it in context!-- has been that what happened in Cologne is being overblown by anti-immigrant people who are trying to make it seem like a big deal. The number of people involved in the Cologne mob as a portion of the overall number of refugees isn't particularly important... what's important is that the number of refugees in Germany has risen to a point that a mob estimated by police as "in the thousands" formed with the result that sexual assaults numbering in the hundreds occurred while police watched, powerless to intervene, and that the Mayor of Cologne says that women need to adopt a "code of conduct" for their own safety. It is important in the context of what happened in Germany that the refugees number in the millions. That it's being overblown by anti-immigrant people is because in Canada, we are not going to be accepting millions of refugees in a matter of months, as has happened in Germany and Europe. In that sense, what happened in Germany is irrelevant to us in Canada. Make no mistake, if the government were saying "We're going to be bringing in one and a half million people from the Middle East in the next 12 months, I would also have concerns about our security (though I suspect my concern would still be less than yours). Accepting 25 thousand refugees each year would mean it would take us 40 years to achieve the same level of 'risk' as currently seen to exist in Germany. It's impossible to use what happened in Germany as even an implication of what "could" happen in Canada because the situation is so different. This thread is about Middle Eastern/Muslim Islamaphobia in *Canada*. Maybe you, or someone on the anti-Middle Eastern-immigrant side could demonstrate, using actual data from Canadian/US experience, what our risk really might be? That might help your case. Maybe the rate of violence amongst Middle Eastern/Muslim groups is much higher than the overall rate of violence of the population in these countries? Has the level of sexual assaults/rapes increased as a result of the million plus Middle Eastern immigrants already in Canada and the US? (Please, no Breitbart cites or similar; objectivity the goal). If you can't do that, then I'd say your argument fails. Edited January 16, 2016 by dialamah
dialamah Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) That's not the estimated number of attackers, that's the number of suspects they've been able to identify so far. There's a difference. -k True, but until they provide a number then that's the best I can do because I do try to avoid guessing or assuming. Or you can add how ever many seems 'reasonable' to you - 50? 100? 200? 500? and adjust my example accordingly. Edited January 16, 2016 by dialamah
Argus Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Apples and oranges comparison/question for different cultures and the very psychiatric definition of pedophilia. If I thought Selena Gomez was hot at age 15, am I a pedophile ? Any western progressive would answer yes to that, without question. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 if I purposely state, "no intent to diminish", there was no intent to diminish; rather, "I don't have anything against Jews. Why, some of my best friends are Jews..." What you and the other 'progressives' have sought to do from the start here is first deny migrants were involved, then, when that failed, diminish this into unimportance, into triviality. So what if some women were sexually assaulted anyway? Probably their own fault. They were asking for it! Only racists would care about this! "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 This thread is about Middle Eastern/Muslim Islamaphobia in *Canada*. Maybe you, or someone on the anti-Middle Eastern-immigrant side could demonstrate, using actual data from Canadian/US experience, what our risk really might be? Maybe we could if such statistics were kept by police in either country, but they are not. And I have a feeling most of you on the other side of this argument would be screaming bloody murder if the police decided to start keeping such statistics. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dialamah Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Maybe we could if such statistics were kept by police in either country, but they are not. And I have a feeling most of you on the other side of this argument would be screaming bloody murder if the police decided to start keeping such statistics. You love making assumptions, don't you? I'd be happy to see those statistics: they are great for letting phobes in on such secrets as those people aren't as bad,scary,evil as you think. Consider this: in both the US and Canada, violent crime rates have been decreasing since the 1980s. In Canada, violent crime dropped by 5%, making it the least violent year since 1969. The population of Arab-Canadians increased during that same period. While the increase in Arab Canadians are not responsible for the drop in crime (unless I were to employ "right" logic that correlation equals causation), it's equally obvious that the importation of these millions of "misogynistic, etc., etc.," peoples has had no effect whatsoever on crime or on our social development in regards to women's rights. (Although, if the situation were reversed, the 'phobes would no doubt claim a relationship between crime and Arab-Canadian immigration.) So, your argument still fails. New challenge: Find information indicating that among ethnic neighborhoods in which Arab-Canadians (or Middle Eastern Canadians) predominant, there is a corresponding rise in crime. That should be easier, and may even have some positive results. Go!
dialamah Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Any western progressive would answer yes to that, without question. Again, another assumption: I'd consider it distasteful, and certainly would support legal action if he were to act on his 'attraction', but since pedophilia is specifically about prepubescent children, that wouldn't be what I'd call him. Anyway, are you implying here that adult men being sexually attracted to or involved with 15-year-olds is ok? Cause you know, that's pretty disgusting.
Big Guy Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 "Not to diminish any incident, but I'm going to try and diminish this incident." At last count there were well over 500 victims who have complained to police. Of the 31 identified when last I heard, there were 9 Algerians, 8 Moroccans, 5 Iranians, 4 Syrians, and an Iraqi, which draws a slightly more complete picture than "18 asylum seekers". That was Cologne; similar incidents happened in other German cities, as well as cities in Sweden, Finland, Austria, and Switzerland. It's certainly fortunate that not all 1.1 million refugees were at the Cologne train station, though. The mayor of Cologne says that women should not go out alone, and should stay "an arm's length" from strange men. German women apparently can't go to public pools either anymore. -k It seems German citizens are getting fed up with the immigrant issue and are out protesting: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/protest-german-city-attacks-refugees-160116164517851.html They sure seem to be angry about the way some people are treated. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
kimmy Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 True, but until they provide a number then that's the best I can do because I do try to avoid guessing or assuming. Or you can add how ever many seems 'reasonable' to you - 50? 100? 200? 500? and adjust my example accordingly. I'm pointing out that your initial statement was extremely misleading, akin to claiming that the Vancouver 2011 riot was only 100 people because that's how many people were arrested on-scene. It is important in the context of what happened in Germany that the refugees number in the millions. That it's being overblown by anti-immigrant people is because in Canada, we are not going to be accepting millions of refugees in a matter of months, as has happened in Germany and Europe. In that sense, what happened in Germany is irrelevant to us in Canada. Make no mistake, if the government were saying "We're going to be bringing in one and a half million people from the Middle East in the next 12 months, I would also have concerns about our security (though I suspect my concern would still be less than yours). Accepting 25 thousand refugees each year would mean it would take us 40 years to achieve the same level of 'risk' as currently seen to exist in Germany. It's impossible to use what happened in Germany as even an implication of what "could" happen in Canada because the situation is so different. This thread is about Middle Eastern/Muslim Islamaphobia in *Canada*. Maybe you, or someone on the anti-Middle Eastern-immigrant side could demonstrate, using actual data from Canadian/US experience, what our risk really might be? That might help your case. Maybe the rate of violence amongst Middle Eastern/Muslim groups is much higher than the overall rate of violence of the population in these countries? Has the level of sexual assaults/rapes increased as a result of the million plus Middle Eastern immigrants already in Canada and the US? (Please, no Breitbart cites or similar; objectivity the goal). If you can't do that, then I'd say your argument fails. The argument fails? It appears you now agree that it's a good thing that Canada is taking in only a small number of refugees, and that large numbers would indeed constitute a risk... so it seems that we're both in agreement that there's some justification to peoples' concerns over bringing Middle Easterners to Canada. I think the main argument is already over, and we're just left to quibble over how many refugees it takes to constitute a risk. -k (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
dialamah Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) The argument fails? It appears you now agree that it's a good thing that Canada is taking in only a small number of refugees, and that large numbers would indeed constitute a risk... I think the main argument is already over, and we're just left to quibble over how many refugees it takes to constitute a risk. -k Yes, I've consistently said that the risk of taking in 25,000 refugees is practically non-existent; I've said the same from the beginning. I've also repeated several times that if we were under the same situation as Europe, I'd agree there might be reason to worry. so it seems that we're both in agreement that there's some justification to peoples' concerns over bringing Middle Easterners to Canada. Well no, because the likelihood that we'd EVER be in the same situation as Europe is non-existent in terms of Middle Eastern immigrants or refugees. The only peoples that could essentially arrive in the millions are Americans, or South Americans, since they can travel via land routes, no need to cross an ocean. I expect that to happen as a result of global warming, but I likely will not be alive to discuss the ramifications on Canadians. Edited January 16, 2016 by dialamah
Derek 2.0 Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 It seems German citizens are getting fed up with the immigrant issue and are out protesting: How many of those "German citizens" are actually German? You link to protests in Stuttgart, Stuttgart's population is nearly half foreign born, and of that,nearly half again aren't even German citizens........Stuttgart being one of the major (former) West German cities to see a massive post-war influx of Turkish Muslims.........
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 I love watching lefties tie themselves into pretzels defending large scale assault and misogyny.waldo already spoke to the scale of the attacks in relation to the hysterical conjecture by the talking heads in the media and the forum Islamophobes. If you've got something to contribute, then step up instead of making your usually Shady drive-by BS smears.
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 It's sad because it's people of his ilk that are the biggest enablers, and help prohibit change.Who's enabling what exactly? Are you obtuse enough to believe that anyone here thinks sexual assault and rape is okay? You can't be that intellectually dishonest and you sure as hell aren't that stupid. So why even pretend?
cybercoma Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 That's not the estimated number of attackers, that's the number of suspects they've been able to identify so far. There's a difference. -k Youre right. There is a difference between verified identities and conjecture.
eyeball Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 It seems German citizens are getting fed up with the immigrant issue and are out protesting: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/protest-german-city-attacks-refugees-160116164517851.html They sure seem to be angry about the way some people are treated. Good. It's long past time lefties and righties went back to burying their hatchets where they most belong, in each other. It's awful how we've inflicted our barely muted hatred towards one another through proxies around the world. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) Charlie Hebdo ran a cartoon depicting Aylan Kurdi as a man chasing after a woman with a caption asking: "What would have become of small Aylan if he grew up?" That's about par for course...sick racist bastards. Story Edited January 16, 2016 by eyeball A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
scribblet Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Mass sex attacks by migrant males are not conjecture, they are verified in numerous cities. Speaking out pedophilia http://tribune.com.pk/story/1027742/settled-matter-bill-aiming-to-ban-child-marriages-shot-down/ ISLAMABAD:Another move to ban child marriages in Pakistan has fallen at the first hurdle. The bill to prohibit underage marriages has been withdrawn after the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) declared it un-Islamic. The ruling party lawmaker, who moved the bill, withdrew her proposal on Thursday following staunch resistance from the council, which advises the legislature whether or not a certain law is Sharia-compliant. Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
eyeball Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Ah yes Pakistan, one our of staunchest allies in the Global Conflict For a More Conservative Humanity. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Ah yes Pakistan, one our of staunchest allies in the Global Conflict For a More Conservative Humanity. So Pakistan's decision to allow sex with children as Mohammad did is somehow the West's fault, too? Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Shady Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 Who's enabling what exactly? Are you obtuse enough to believe that anyone here thinks sexual assault and rape is okay? You can't be that intellectually dishonest and you sure as hell aren't that stupid. So why even pretend? The stupidity and dishonesty comes from those who pretend that all cultures share our values.
Shady Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 So Pakistan's decision to allow sex with children as Mohammad did is somehow the West's fault, too? As the saying goes. Blame the West, make excuses for the rest. Rinse and repeat as required.
DogOnPorch Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 As the saying goes. Blame the West, make excuses for the rest. Rinse and repeat as required. Normally, folks wouldn't give a fellow like Mohammad anything but a VERY long prison sentence. Preferably forever. But, since he's the founder of Islam...more a death cult than a religion...I'm expected to respect both him and his followers. I'm not cool with that. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 So Pakistan's decision to allow sex with children as Mohammad did is somehow the West's fault, too?No but I just love the way right-wingers twist themselves into pretzels when pretending our allies are also our enemies.Right-wingers are clearly the most perverted people on the planet. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted January 16, 2016 Report Posted January 16, 2016 No but I just love the way right-wingers twist themselves into pretzels when pretending our allies are also our enemies. Right-wingers are clearly the most perverted people on the planet. When you're as far left as some, everybody seems right-wing. Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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