dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: As Goddess has already informed you, Mainstream Islam views your minority sect of folks who do not follow Muhammad as BAD MUSLIMS and in need of punishment. Apostates. What's Islam's penalty for Apostasy...the Quran's version? Will you have to lie or use kitman (lie by omission)???...let's see. Yes, mainstream Islam rejects Ahmediyya ideology and ISIS ideology. The question is why do YOU keep pushing the violent ISIS ideology as Islamic, but denying the peaceful Ahmeiyya one as un-Islamic? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, dialamah said: Yes, mainstream Islam rejects Ahmediyya ideology and ISIS ideology. The question is why do YOU keep pushing the violent ISIS ideology as Islamic, but denying the peaceful Ahmeiyya one as un-Islamic? dialamah chooses kitman...but lie she must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, dialamah said: Yes, mainstream Islam rejects Ahmediyya ideology and ISIS ideology. Does it reject ISIS ideology? Or does it just reject its methods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. https://quran.com/4/89 The penalty is DEATH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Goddess said: I guess I'm just not as sensitive to it as you are Yes, why are you so tolerant of false and hateful anti-Muslim rhetoric and so intolerant of me pointing it out? Why do you so often misstate what I say and attribute things to me I have never said? 13 minutes ago, Goddess said: You have no idea what I denounce. I walked out of a class because the instructor was harrassing a Muslim girl mercilessly and I told the instructor why I was walking out. You could see her, right? You can't see the fear and pain in the faces of the women on the street when they are verbally harassed or have their hijab pulled off, the kind of crime that Argus dismisses as "minor", so you don't object to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Goddess said: Does it reject ISIS ideology? Or does it just reject its methods? Mainstream Islam does not accept conversion by sword or death to non-believers. If ISIS belief was mainstream, there wouldn't be any other religions in any Muslim country. Edited October 2, 2017 by dialamah 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 22 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. https://quran.com/4/89 The penalty is DEATH. Oh, so dramatic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, dialamah said: Yes, why are you so tolerant of false and hateful anti-Muslim rhetoric and so intolerant of me pointing it out? Why do you so often misstate what I say and attribute things to me I have never said? You could see her, right? You can't see the fear and pain in the faces of the women on the street when they are verbally harassed or have their hijab pulled off, the kind of crime that Argus dismisses as "minor", so you don't object to that. Yes, you have accused me of this before - that I would actually join in with someone ripping off a hijab or that I would stand there and laugh and egg on the harrasser. Because I don't help you with your pitchfork and torch in defending the great religion of Islam - the greatest religion ever! There's no in between for you. Either a person thinks Islam is the greatest religion ever and defends it from any and all reproach or else they're an evil bigoted racist, just waiting for their chance to kill Muslims. Your "Muslims as victims" narrative allows no place for people who would stand up and defend a Muslim being harrassed or attacked, but who refuses to defend their wonky religious beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 31 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: dialamah chooses kitman...but lie she must. Answer the question: why do you accept the violent ideology over the peaceful one, when both are rejected by mainstream Islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dialamah said: If ISIS belief was mainstream, there wouldn't be any other religions in any Muslim country. Isn't that what Islam is trying to do in Muslim countries? Edge out every other religion? Make it difficult for them to practice other faiths there? Burn their churches? Whether they do it by sword or by forced conversion or by political policies that discriminate against other religions. This is what I'm talking about - they may not agree with the sword method that ISIS uses, but to insist that mainstream Islam is tolerant and accepting of other religions.....I don't even know what to say about that. Edited October 2, 2017 by Goddess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Goddess said: actually 3 minutes ago, Goddess said: Yes, you have accused me of this before - that I would actually join in with someone ripping off a hijab or that I would stand there and laugh and egg on the harrasser. Really? I said you didn't denounce Argus for saying that crimes against Muslims are minor, or PIK & friend for saying Muslims deserve violence against them. You read this as me accusing you of ripping off a hijab or laughing and egging on a harasser. This certainly explains why our conversations never go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Goddess said: Isn't that what Islam is trying to do in Muslim countries? Edge out every other religion? Make it difficult for them to practice other faiths there? Burn their churches? Whether they do it by sword or by forced conversion or by political policies that discriminate against other religions. This is what I'm talking about - they may not agree with the sword method that ISIS uses, but to insist that mainstream Islam is tolerant and accepting of other religions.....I don't even know what to say about that. You once again fail to read what I actually write. ISIS ideology is conversion or death, which is not mainstream Islam. But I have said, twice today already I believe, that other religions in Muslim majority countries have second class status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, dialamah said: I said you didn't denounce Argus for saying that crimes against Muslims are minor, Because he produced a link that showed that the crimes were mostly minor - graffiti and racist comments mostly. No different than other minorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Just now, Goddess said: Because he produced a link that showed that the crimes were mostly minor - graffiti and racist comments mostly. No different than other minorities. Oh right. Just the little stuff, graffiti, hate messages, setting fire to mosques and cars, death threats, verbal attacks, physical attacks, shooting them while they pray. But shooting only happened that one time, nobody else has died so nothing to worry about. But OMG, that poster said "you are wrong about what you believe about Muslims" and you have to be all over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson Jones Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, dialamah said: Oh right. Just the little stuff, graffiti, hate messages, setting fire to mosques and cars, death threats, verbal attacks, physical attacks, shooting them while they pray. But shooting only happened that one time, nobody else has died so nothing to worry about. It's all minor dialamah. When you think about it, it's good for their characteristic. A little mosque burning here, a little house vandalism there. Maybe threatening their lives.. some yelling at a mother with a head scarf on, while walking her kids to school. It's all good. It's just minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson Jones Posted October 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Found some information in regards to: Does the Koran Endorse Apostasy Laws? The Koran repeatedly mentions freedom of conscience as one of its basic tenets.“There is no compulsion in religion (2:256),” and “Let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve (18:29).” Belief is mentioned as a matter of personal choice. The next part of the latter verse makes it clear that God - not man - is the sole judge of faith (or the lack thereof) and will reward or punish as He wills in the Hereafter. This rule applied to Prophet Muhammad equally. His job was solely the delivery of the message, not its imposition by force. God says in the Koran: “So if they submit, then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message...(3:20).” And: “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and be cautious. But if you turn back then know that the duty of Our Messenger is only a clear deliverance of the message (5:92).” This theme is repeated throughout the Koran. Man is given free choice to accept the message of Islam, refuse it, or turn back on it. God reserves the right to impart judgment for these choices in the afterlife. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 15 minutes ago, dialamah said: Oh right. Just the little stuff, graffiti, hate messages, setting fire to mosques and cars, death threats, verbal attacks, physical attacks, shooting them while they pray. But shooting only happened that one time, nobody else has died so nothing to worry about. I like this post because it reveals the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of your stalwart defense of Islam. On the one hand, you excuse murder after murder after murder after murder on the part of Muslim extremists across the world for years with your neverending chant that most Muslims are peaceful, and that Islam is peaceful. Yet here, because of what are essentially, a handful of cases of vandalism, graffiti and rudeness and insults, and one shooting incident by one man, you make the accusation that we are downplaying the danger of "Islamophobia". No, that we are inciting it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 15 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said: It's all minor dialamah. When you think about it, it's good for their characteristic. A little mosque burning here, a little house vandalism there. Maybe threatening their lives.. some yelling at a mother with a head scarf on, while walking her kids to school. It's all good. It's just minor. Compared to having your throat slit while trying to catch a train, or being run over with your kids by a truck while at a Christmas fair, or being blown up at the airport - yeah, it's minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Argus said: On the one hand, you excuse murder after murder after murder after murder on the part of Muslim extremists across the world for years with your neverending chant that most Muslims are peaceful, and that Islam is peaceful. Except I don't. I condemn those murders but I also condemn posters on this forum for their constant broad brush painting of all Muslims as terrorists, incipient terrorists and too backwards to fit into Western society. And most Muslims are peaceful, just as most Americans are peaceful, despite their near weekly mass shooting events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Argus said: Yet here, because of what are essentially, a handful of cases of vandalism, graffiti and rudeness and insults, And, for the fourth or fifth time, do you also dismiss those same sorts of crimes against Jews as minor and hardly worth concerning ourselves over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said: Found some information in regards to: Does the Koran Endorse Apostasy Laws? The Koran repeatedly mentions freedom of conscience as one of its basic tenets.“There is no compulsion in religion (2:256),” and “Let him who will believe and let him who will disbelieve (18:29).” Belief is mentioned as a matter of personal choice. The next part of the latter verse makes it clear that God - not man - is the sole judge of faith (or the lack thereof) and will reward or punish as He wills in the Hereafter. The problem, as Rue has explained, is that some of the Quranic verses are superseded by others. Muhammad was a man of peace when he was at Mecca, but after he moved to Medina things changed. He hadn't made much progress converting people with peace, and he started contradicting his earlier words. Both of those two, for example, have been 'abrogated' by verses further along in his life, known, appropriately enough, as the verses of the sword (9.5) and (33.5) Quote But if you turn back then know that the duty of Our Messenger is only a clear deliverance of the message (5:92).” I didn't find a clear abrogation of 5.92 but it sounds identical to 16.82 : But if they turn back, then on you devolves only the clear deliverance (of the message). " which is also abrogated by 9.5 https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an Edited October 2, 2017 by Argus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 8 minutes ago, Argus said: Yet here, because of what are essentially, a handful of cases Oh, about that "handful", it was 159 in 2015, slightly less than the 170something against Jews. How many and how serious do they have to be before we should worry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, dialamah said: And, for the fourth or fifth time, do you also dismiss those same sorts of crimes against Jews as minor and hardly worth concerning ourselves over? Those kinds of crimes? Yes. The kinds of crimes that concern me most are physical violence, and I don't mean tugging on a hijab or knocking off a yamaka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Argus said: Those kinds of crimes? Yes. The kinds of crimes that concern me most are physical violence, and I don't mean tugging on a hijab or knocking off a yamaka. I see. "Tugging off" a headscarf or yamaka is physical violence and illegal. I don't think they should get a pass. But good to know where you stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, dialamah said: I see. "Tugging off" a headscarf or yamaka is physical violence and illegal. I don't think they should get a pass. But good to know where you stand. I guess that's just what makes us different. Your primary concern is a woman having her headscarf being tugged off and mine is a woman getting her head cut off. Difference in priorities, I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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