Islamophobia in Canada

[drummindiver]

You missed the point that my purpose of switching to Mormons was to deflate the part of the discussion about "Muslims."

As soon as we discuss Muslims people get their knickers in a knot so it was an attempt to choose another religious group that is a bit more neutral while still having some pretty fundamentalist religious ideas.

Mormons are as religious as Muslims.

Why the panic then when you say Muslim, but not Mormon?

Clearly, we are just picking on them, right? Nothing about the ideology or the mayhem it perpetuates?

[drummindiver]

You're right - my language was sloppy.

By context it was intended to be "Islamists" rather than the implied "all Muslims."

Edit: I take this back a little bit.

The danger of bringing in partial quotes from other threads is that the context is lost.

So it is not entirely clear just how sloppy my language is although I agree it should have been tightened up.

For example, my bias is to consider that all religious people are not "normal" since I do not consider it sane to believe in an imaginary being such as Yahew, God, or Allah. Of course, most people think that religious people are "normal" since so many people believe in this insanity thereby normalizing it - so that is "normal" by a "many people believe this so it must be normal" criterion.

lol

Even double speak in this backtrack to make PMJT proud.

You are a bigot, cause.

I'm not a bigot, cause.

[GostHacked]

Your comparison of the violent passages of the Bible to Islam is not valid.

It is 100% valid. It's how one interprets the violence that seems to be the issue.

[msj]

lol

Even double speak in this backtrack to make PMJT proud.

You are a bigot, cause.

I'm not a bigot, cause.

You mean that when words are put into proper context that they lead one to certain conclusions?

Wow, mind is blown.

BTW, I have not stated Kimmy is a bigot.

I have stated that the statement that I have specifically quoted is racist-ish.

[Argus]

It is 100% valid. It's how one interprets the violence that seems to be the issue.

No, it's how the members of a religious group interpret their books, and how that affects their behaviour which is at issue.

[GostHacked]

No, it's how the members of a religious group interpret their books, and how that affects their behaviour which is at issue.

So you disagree but yet agree with what I posted.

[msj]

I'm pretty sure not all Muslims gang rape, gay bash, or burn down synagogues in their spare time.

To make a blanket statement like that is certainly racist-ish.

But she didn't say they all did. She didn't even imply it. She observed the misogyny and homophobia inherent within the cultures of most Muslim nations which immigrants come from and said she saw no reason why we should bring those attitudes, which derive in large part, from their religion, here. Increasing the number of people HERE, whose attitudes come from THERE, would tend to make HERE more like THERE, which she and a lot of others, didn't see as being in her interests.

And I'd again like to point out her ignored question about what people from that region have to offer. I've previously posted stats canada information on the economic success of immigrants to Canada by source region which has shown immigrants from that area are almost at the bottom of the earnings ladder compared to immigrants from other regions. They are much less economically successful in Canada than other immigrants.

Haven't seen that post so don't know.

I'm not one to necessarily pre-judge a group of people in this way.

Also not sure how relevant it is - sure, I'm not expecting to bring over 25,000 Steve Jobs but I'm also not expecting to be bringing in, say, over 500 synagogue arsonists, 15,000 gay bashers, and 2,436 gang rapists either.

The reason we bring refugees into this country is for other than economic reasons - humanitarian reasons.

Something that gets forgotten when all one can think about is how many rapists and arsonists there supposedly are in the per capita population of that group.

[Guest]

It is 100% valid. It's how one interprets the violence that seems to be the issue.

This is absolutely correct, but it covers only one of two important issues with regards to this subject. The other is the number of people who subscribe to the violent interpretation.

[Argus]

The reason we bring refugees into this country is for other than economic reasons - humanitarian reasons.

No, it's not. Do you know how far the billions we will spend keeping these people in subsidized housing would go if we instead spent it on improving the lives of refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan? I'm willing to bet that for what these 25,000 will cost here we could easily feed, clothe and shelter 250,000 - 500,000 refugees in the middle east.

Edited to add this study, which was done recently and found it costs 12 times as much to bring over and take care of a middle east refugee as it would to take care of them in a neighbouring country.

https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/study-middle-eastern-refugees-cost-us-257481-for-family-of-four-in-first-five-years/

Edited November 26, 2015 by Argus

[Hudson Jones]

I don't want to waste any more energy on the ugliness of humans (at least for today). I rather think about the good:

[jacee]

What difference rape and terrorism when there are bright colours and spicy smells for you...

Oh grow up.

.

[jacee]

No, it's not. Do you know how far the billions we will spend keeping these people in subsidized housing would go if we instead spent it on improving the lives of refugees in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan? I'm willing to bet that for what these 25,000 will cost here we could easily feed, clothe and shelter 250,000 - 500,000 refugees in the middle east.

Edited to add this study, which was done recently and found it costs 12 times as much to bring over and take care of a middle east refugee as it would to take care of them in a neighbouring country.

https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2015/11/05/study-middle-eastern-refugees-cost-us-257481-for-family-of-four-in-first-five-years/

Refugee camps are temporary, no jobs and not self sustaining.

We are not just housing refugees temporarily.

We are bringing them here permanently, to get jobs, housing, raise their families.

.

[notca]

It is 100% valid. It's how one interprets the violence that seems to be the issue.

No it is not valid. There is only one way to interpret violence. How many ways can 'Kill' be interpreted? Or 'submission' ? It is not a matter of interpretation. All religious people seem to cherry pick which parts of their Holy Books to live by, whatever will justify what they do.

The violence in the Bible's OT is no longer relevant to Christians who are really Christians. The OT was revised and amended by Jesus in the NT.

There is no such revision or amendment in the Qu'ran. The violence of the Qu'ran is the same today as it was in the beginning.

One could say that violent Christians are worse than Muslims because they have a choice in what to believe while Muslims only have one book of instruction. Thankfully, Christians as a whole do not resort to violence. they can be damned mean and hateful but mostly they respect the laws against violence.

[Argus]

Refugee camps are temporary, no jobs and not self sustaining.

We are not just housing refugees temporarily.

We are bringing them here permanently, to get jobs, housing, raise their families.

.

Temporary? The Palestinians have been in refugee camps for sixty years!

In any case, if we let the Russians wind down this civil war in a year or two they can go home.

And if not, then we are still only helping a tiny fraction where we could be helping 12 times more.

[notca]

I don't want to waste any more energy on the ugliness of humans (at least for today). I rather think about the good:

No one with a heart could not be moved by the sight of those refugees arriving.

But I have given a lot of thought to the matter. I know that if this country were engaged in civil conflict, if we were poor, hungry and our lives were in danger there is no way I would put my young children in a raft like that and attempt to cross a sea. I would do whatever I could to hide, protect and provide for them and pray for the best but setting them out on a journey like that would not be an option.

[dialamah]

There is no such revision or amendment in the Qu'ran. The violence of the Qu'ran is the same today as it was in the beginning.

Non-Muslims keep saying this, and Muslims keep saying something else. Are you Muslim, notca? Have you spent years studying the Koran and the history of Islam? Have you spent decades teaching the Koran? Just why should what you say be taken more seriously than what thousands of Islamic scholars and clerics say, and what over 1 billion Muslims also believe?

[notca]

Non-Muslims keep saying this, and Muslims keep saying something else. Are you Muslim, notca? Have you spent years studying the Koran and the history of Islam? Have you spent decades teaching the Koran? Just why should what you say be taken more seriously than what thousands of Islamic scholars and clerics say, and what over 1 billion Muslims also believe?

I have only spent 4 - 5 years studying the Qu'ran, since the controversy about Islam begin to rear it's head. And I would never teach such clap-trap to anyone, even if I were qualified!

I have no agenda to promote. Muslims have. I am non-religious, they are devoted to their religion.

I am only interested in the truth and the truth as I have seen it is what I have posted.

I don't believe Christians either when they claim to be Christians but don't act like it, preaching hatred for lifestyles with which they disagree.

It is my experience that religious people will say anything (perhaps even believe it) to justify their actions and that includes lying. That is why I left the Church years ago and never looked back. I think organized religion have only one purpose; to control their followers.

[kimmy]

Kimmy wrote:

Overall, completely ignoring the issue of terrorism, I just don't see that more Muslims would be a good thing for the country. Usually it's the opposite. More Muslims usually means more problems. We've seen this in many European countries. Aside from the superficial, like opening a shawarma stand in your town, what do Middle Eastern immigrants have to offer? Gay bashing, gang rape, hate speech, synagogue arson, stone-age attitudes... what's the upside?

I'm pretty sure not all Muslims gang rape, gay bash, or burn down synagogues in their spare time.

To make a blanket statement like that is certainly racist-ish.

I never said all.

In 2011, Canada took in roughly 40,000 immigrants from Iran, Pakistan, the U.A.E, Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Tunisia, Somalia, Syria, and Kuwait.

According to the Stats Can figures I just looked at, the number and geographic breakdown of Canada's immigration sources seems to be pretty steady, so that's about 200,000 people from those nations in just the past 5 years, and no reason to assume the trend would be any different. Now we're adding 50% again to that number in Syrian refugees.

I won't claim that everybody from those nations has regressive attitudes, but you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that they're all friendly and tolerant towards gays and Jews, or respectful of women and non-Muslims.

Europe's experience has been that rising numbers of Muslims has led to rising incidence of violence against women, and anti-Jewish incidents as well.

Haven't seen that post so don't know.

I'm not one to necessarily pre-judge a group of people in this way.

Also not sure how relevant it is - sure, I'm not expecting to bring over 25,000 Steve Jobs but I'm also not expecting to be bringing in, say, over 500 synagogue arsonists, 15,000 gay bashers, and 2,436 gang rapists either.

The reason we bring refugees into this country is for other than economic reasons - humanitarian reasons.

Something that gets forgotten when all one can think about is how many rapists and arsonists there supposedly are in the per capita population of that group.

I'm not referring to just this year's planned 25,000 Syrian refugees, I'm concerned with the cumulative effect of ongoing immigration from countries that have long-standing problems in treatment of women, religious minorities, and gay people.

-k

[dialamah]

It is my experience that religious people will say anything (perhaps even believe it) to justify their actions and that includes lying. That is why I left the Church years ago and never looked back. I think organized religion have only one purpose; to control their followers.

I entirely agree with you; some of the nastiest people I've ever met call themselves Christian as well as some of the nicest. I guess where we differ is in assuming that somehow the bible being divided into two different books is what makes most Christians not kill gays or stone adulterers. In Western countries, it seems the rule of law prevails and so it doesn't happen; in countries where the law doesn't specifically forbid those things, Christians find every justification for doing much of what people object to Islamic extremists doing. However, because Western countries are predominantly Christian and African/Middle East countries predominantly Muslim, people are confused (in my opinion) about how different Muslims and Christians really are - and it seems, not that different in many ways. Religion is the problem, but not specifically Islam.

Also, 5 years of reading the Koran may make you familiar with its contents, but i don't think it make you an expert on interpretation. You've apparently interpreted it to mean that the more violent aspects of the book are commands that Believers must follow because they came "after" the more peaceful passages. That is apparently the interpretation ISIS prefers as well. Other Islamic clerics and scholars say that those passages are specific to that time and place, and that the more peaceful aspects of Islam are the true message. Even Muslims who believe that a Caliphate will be established do not believe that the current violence is the way Allah or Mohammed intended.

It really is in the interpretation.

Edited November 26, 2015 by dialamah

[cybercoma]

Oh, so now your going to mix up refugees with immigrants. Nice, dishonest, but nice.

Refugees from one particular place with ALL immigration at that.

[Smallc]

Refugees from one particular place with ALL immigration at that.

Whatever narrative works, right?

[cybercoma]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both immigrant Muslims and refugee Muslims believe in the same Quran. No? I don't think how Islam arrives in Canada really matters.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Lord's Army and Canadian Christians believe in the same bible. No?

[cybercoma]

I'm pretty sure not all Muslims gang rape, gay bash, or burn down synagogues in their spare time.

To make a blanket statement like that is certainly racist-ish.

Imagine if they did though? There's over a million Muslims in Canada right now. With all the gang rapes and murdeing of gays that those people do, why there must be at least a few hundred thousand incidents a year. Edited November 26, 2015 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that they're all friendly and tolerant towards gays and Jews, or respectful of women and non-Muslims.

We have Canadian-born white nationalists who aren't "tolerant towards gays and Jews." We don't force anyone to be tolerant toward anybody. But you can be damn sure that they will have to abide by our laws when it comes to assault and discrimination. And frankly, attacks a against gays and Jews are far more likely from Canadian born radical conservatives and white supremacists. We have laws and they'll all be bound by them just like everyone else.

[msj]

I never said all.

---SNIP---

Those are people, Kimmy.

Yes, some of them, perhaps even most of them, hold attitudes as bad as many (albeit a minority of) Canadians do, but they need our help and with exposure to a new experience they may even return home one day and bring with them progressive ideas and change their countries back to decent places to live again.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Charles Anthony
excessive quoting [---SNIP---]