Paris Terrorist Attacks

[Argus]

Once the revolution succeeded then the fanatics pushed everyone else aside and took control. They started radicalizing the politics, stormed the US embassy, cut ties with the west an started EXPORTING extremism and Islamic militancy abroad to all over ME resulting in mess in Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Iraq, Arabia, Argentina and many other places ...etc. and eventually the mess we are in now. If Iran was left alone there would have been no religious fanatic revolution and no spread of militancy and Islamic fanaticism all over the ME.

You know, a lot of people like to talk about the terrorist origins of some of the groups in Israel. They point out that the irgun were committing terrorist acts prior to Israel's birth. And they're right. What they usually don't point out, of course, is that almost all the Irgun attacks were in response to terrorist attacks on Jews by Arabs. Yes, Jews were being shot and murdered in the streets of Jerusalem before Israel was born.

Which was in 1947, well before the coup in Iran. Much of the Arab world declared war and attacked Israel in 1947 - again, before the Iran coup, and were beaten back like dogs. They refused to allow Arab refugees to settle in their lands except as refugees in camps, and poured hate and money into those camps. If you want to look at the origins of terrorism, you only have to look at the actions of Arab governments in their implacable hostility towards Israel ever since.

While Iran was silent, the Shah keeping everything stable, Palestinian terrorists were taking hostages, hijacking airlines and murdering Olympic athletes while the Arab world attacked Israel repeatedly. The Lebanese civil war erupted between Christians, Druze, and Suuni Muslims in 1975, but we're to believe the 1979 Iranian revolution was responsible? The Saudis and their Wahabi cult poured money into madrassas in poor countries throughout the Muslim world, a Suuni fundamentalist interpretation of Islam which had NOTHING to do with the Shiites of Iran, but we're to blame the Iranian coup for the fanatics that inspired?

Your opinion simply does not hold water under any logical analyses.

[eyeball]

What are you even talking about?

The same thing you are, responsibility.

Of course the leaders of a country are responsible for its wars. Of course the logistics stream is what makes it happen.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Where do you think the discussion should go from here?

[Argus]

So you are saying it is best to become slave and not fight back for your rights, I don't think turning your other cheek is in Muslim culture but in Christian culture with which a great majority of Christians don't agree with either.

Are you calling the Filipinos slaves? They emerged from their colonial period, as did we. They aren't still trying to kill Americans - except the Muslims. The Africans have their own problems, and without question you can trace the origins to colonialism and the borders it set, but they're not blowing up westerners (except the Muslims). The US treated their neighbors to the south abominably in the past, but nobody there is shooting down Americans today.

The people who shot up Paris weren't 'fighting back' on behalf of their downtrodden Iranian brethren (who they despise) but on behalf of an ideology which sees all those who worship differently as infidels who must convert or die.

[eyeball]

Most likely. Are you running off on some kind of tangent in the hopes of saving your point.

Nope just staying zeroed in on it.

[Smallc]

Now we're getting somewhere.

Where do you think the discussion should go from here?

We should probably focus on the things that actually happened, and what we can actually do about it.

[eyeball]

Edit> To get back on point, the attackers themselves are rarely the only ones to blame.

Yeah...tell me about it.

[Guest]

Yeah...tell me about it.

I was. That did seem to be your point for a while there.

Edit> Am I being obtuse? Were you being sarcastic?

Edited November 14, 2015 by bcsapper

[CITIZEN_2015]

There was a war against Israel yes since 1947 BUT Argus I was speaking about the terrorism against the west specifically strong anti-American feelings in ME against the US and terrorists attacks in Europe and US. Yes islamic militancy in ME started after the 1979 revolution and attempts to export that revolution,

Edited November 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[Big Guy]

Hollande calls Paris attacks an 'act of war' by ISIL.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/hollande-paris-france-attacks-concern-stadium-isil-151114103631610.html

I wonder what he calls the deployment of a French aircraft carrier and jets and bombers dropping bombs on ISIS positions in Syria and Iraq. Some might consider that to be an "act of war".

[eyeball]

We should probably focus on the things that actually happened, and what we can actually do about it.

Ok, the only thing that's happening is blowback. There's nothing to complicated about it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok, the only thing that's happening is blowback. There's nothing to complicated about it.

No blowback from Vietnam, Chile, Japan, Germany, or Haiti. So it must be more complicated than that.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The people who shot up Paris weren't 'fighting back' on behalf of their downtrodden Iranian brethren (who they despise) but on behalf of an ideology which sees all those who worship differently as infidels who must convert or die.

Not so. They come out of immense hate for the west and the US and Russia in particular because of their actions I described in my previous posts. If what you say is true why is that they have never attacked other non-muslim countries like African countries (most non-muslims) or central or south america or china or south east asia or even eastern Europe?

Edited November 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

Edit> Am I being obtuse?

Clearly. I'm not after all just talking to you. Anyone who's followed these threads as long as you or small c have know where I'm coming from, where I'm going with it and why.

Were you being sarcastic?

Probably, it's been a long slog.

Edited November 14, 2015 by eyeball

[Smallc]

To add to France's woes, a high speed TGV train just derailed killing at least 7.

[Guest]

Hollande calls Paris attacks an 'act of war' by ISIL.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/hollande-paris-france-attacks-concern-stadium-isil-151114103631610.html

I wonder what he calls the deployment of a French aircraft carrier and jets and bombers dropping bombs on ISIS positions in Syria and Iraq. Some might consider that to be an "act of war".

Ok, the only thing that's happening is blowback. There's nothing to complicated about it.

It seems like we're all agreed this is a war, and we have to do whatever it takes to win it. We've been kind of pussyfooting up to now. It's obviously time to step it up a little. Or a lot.

[eyeball]

No blowback from Vietnam, Chile, Japan, Germany, or Haiti. So it must be more complicated than that.

No oil from these places either so yeah there's probably more to it alright. Probably a mix of mixed up cultures, religion and just plain bad luck.

[Argus]

There was a war against Israel yes since 1947 BUT I was speaking about the terrorism against the west specifically strong anti-American feelings in ME against the US and terrorists attacks in Europe and US. Yes islamic militancy in ME started after the 1979 revolution and attempts to export that revolution,

The West was seen, justifiably, as the bulwark for Israel. Of course this drew a lot of anti western venom from the Muslim world. Whose aircraft do you think were so often attacked by middle east terrorists back in the sixties and seventies? The US, Germany, Britain, Austria, Italy, Switzerland and France all suffered ME terrorist attacks in the 1970s before the Iranian Revolution brought the religions nuts to power there.

[marcus]

Yes, in fact, we ARE the good guys. And yes, in fact, they ARE the bad guys.

Well, you convince me.

I will now pretend that thousands of civilians have not been killed by Western planes and gunfire and I will also pretend that it was not the West that created the perfect condition for ISIS to be formed.

A tip of the hat to you good sir.

[eyeball]

It seems like we're all agreed this is a war, and we have to do whatever it takes to win it. We've been kind of pussyfooting up to now. It's obviously time to step it up a little. Or a lot.

Against who?

[Argus]

Hollande calls Paris attacks an 'act of war' by ISIL.

I wonder what he calls the deployment of a French aircraft carrier and jets and bombers dropping bombs on ISIS positions in Syria and Iraq. Some might consider that to be an "act of war".

This is like suggesting the mafia holding off a SWAT team as the moral equals of those trying to arrest them.

A man who is raping a woman has the right to defend himself if he's attacked, right?

The West tries to stop ISIS from exterminating Kurds so ISIS has the right to retaliate, correct?

These desperate equivalency arguments are a contemptible level of moral bankruptcy.

[Wilber]

Did any attackers survive in Paris or on 9/11?

Do honestly think there were no others planning and supporting these operations? I wouldn't have thought even you could be that naive.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Wilber

[Argus]

Well, you convince me.

I will now pretend that thousands of civilians have not been killed by Western planes and gunfire and I will also pretend that it was not the West that created the perfect condition for ISIS to be formed.

Were the Hitler's Nazis the bad guys? Didn't the allies kill thousands of civilians and didn't it arguably create the conditions for the Nazis to arise?

Again, I ask, were the Nazis the bad guys in World War Two?

Edited November 14, 2015 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

Well, you convince me.

I will now pretend that thousands of civilians have not been killed by Western planes and gunfire and I will also pretend that it was not the West that created the perfect condition for ISIS to be formed.

A tip of the hat to you good sir.

It was Arab/Muslim perfidy that brought the West's combat troops to the region in the first place.

[CITIZEN_2015]

The West was seen, justifiably, as the bulwark for Israel. Of course this drew a lot of anti western venom from the Muslim world. Whose aircraft do you think were so often attacked by middle east terrorists back in the sixties and seventies? The US, Germany, Britain, Austria, Italy, Switzerland and France all suffered ME terrorist attacks in the 1970s before the Iranian Revolution brought the religions nuts to power there.

Again don't invent history, Britain attacked by IRA nothing to do with Muslim fanatics, Muslim or Jihadist terrorist attacks on US soil before 1979? Not to my memory same for France (yes Algerian attacks but that had to do with the war of Algerian independence where French were killing them not muslim fanatics). Same for Germany (the Olympic attack was not by muslim fanatics but Palestinian fighters and they targeted Israelis not German citizens)

Edited November 14, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015

[eyeball]

Do honestly think there were no others planning and supporting these operations?

I'm saying so what not who what.

I wouldn't have thought even you could be that naive.

Well you just did so...