More vote-buying

[Hal 9000]

You're wrong of course... the minimum wage hasn't budged in 40 years. So clearly it is NOT any easier today.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/real-minimum-wages-in-canada-havent-budged-in-almost-four-decades/article19630636/

I think the article does show that in relative terms minimum wage was lower in the 80's. But, beyond that, actual cost of living has either remained the same or is even lower than the 80's.

[The_Squid]

I think the article does show that in relative terms minimum wage was lower in the 80's. But, beyond that, actual cost of living has either remained the same or is even lower than the 80's.

It has varied slightly... but your blanket statement about how good people have it now is simply fictional.

The article also mentioned the fact that significantly more people are at the minimum wage level than there used to be. So more people have it worse than they did 12-15 years ago.

Please show a cite for your contention that the cost of living is the same or lower than in the 80's... because I'm quite certain that wages have NOT kept up with the rate of inflation.

[Hal 9000]

In the 80's when minimum wage was 4.00$ or close to, we simply didn't have or couldn't afford the standard of living that the low income wage earners of today have, here are some examples;

1) Food - you can talk about the bread and milk index all you like, but when we were making minimum wage a Big Mac combo cost about 4$ as did a 2 pc. chicken dinner (3pc dinner about $5.50) from KFC - 1 hour work. A pizza was about 10$ or 2.5 hours work. Today you can buy those meals for about 3/4 of an hours work - even a pizza you can get for less than 10$.

2) Car - in the mid 80's, I had a 6 year old car. Paid about 2800$, and made payments of about $180 p/m (with a co-signer) because lenders wouldn't give more than 4 years on a used car. Today, anyone can lease a new car for less than $200 p/m. - And, insurance? That was still $7-800 bucks, and ICBC didn't finance so you basically had to save that money if you wanted insurance - most of us were dangerously uninsured.

3) Music - If you wanted music in your apartment, you would have to put out no less than $1000 for a stereo (a CD player alone would run nearly $500). Then, you had to buy tapes at 12$ each or CD's for 25$. You'd get together with your friends and tape each others CD's and then pack around a bunch of tapes. Today, An iPod is what $150-200, CD's are about 12$, but who bothers when you can download every song in the world for free. A 500$ computer and speakers for 1-200$ will give you what you need. No $300 boombox and 5 pounds worth of D-cell batteries, just charge up your bluetooth speaker/iPod and head to the beach.

4) TV - A 26" box TV was about 700$ in 89' (I know because I had a loan with a finance company for one). The 32" was $1000. Today, you can buy a big screen plasma for about 500$ - even lower if you watch the prices. But, To actually get cable, you didn't have different companies offering you freebies to be a client, no! In fact, you had 1 company and they usually made you pay a deposit of $100-150 (25 hours work - minimum) just to get hooked up, then cable was $35-40 p/m easily. Today, you can get a modest package for about the same cost and no need for a deposit (in fact, they might give you a free x-box). Renting movies required a paid membership, and then they were about $3.50 or 4$ (1 hour work) for new releases. Today, you can get Netflix for a month for less than 1 hour work.

5) Phone - Generally the same as TV, pay a deposit of about another $100 (25 hours work) and pay about $30 per month (basic plus rental and call waiting) (long distance charges could be 17-20 cents per minute). Until BC Tel allowed Sprint to come in phone charges were through the roof. Sprint gave us 12 cents per minute and we were skeptical.

6) Clothes - Jeans were easily $30-40 bucks as were sweatshirts and t-shirts were $10-15. We could've gone to K-Mart or Zellers, but their stuff was shite. We had no Walmart, Winners, or Old Navy. I go to Old Navy and still 30 years later pay 30$ or less for jeans and 10$ for t-shirts. Jackets, and shoes have come up but not 250%. In fact, my first Doc Martins were nearly $200, I've bout 3 pairs in the last 5 years paying no more than $110 each.

7) Furniture - My first set (pine couch, chair and table) was in "89, it cost $1200 and had to be financed. 2 years ago I bought a better set for my family room at the Brick for about $700.

8) Vices - I think smokes will cost you about 3/4 hour work, but back in the 4$ hour times, they cost 4$ (1 Hour work), I think beer might be the same, but wine - you couldn't get a decent bottle of wine with 1 hours wage, today you can get a good wine for about 8 bucks. Weed, 40 a quarter, 80 and 1/8th - maybe 70 at best.

9) Rent - Almost forgot, my apartment was 500$ per month plus expenses, today the exact unit is $750..

So, you can ask for cites and talk about the bread/milk index or gas prices, but what I wrote is real expenses for when I moved out and made my way - It was tough. You needed a roommate (maybe more) to have any sort of frills at all - we had no discount stores, dollar stores and most everything else was from government regulated monopoly companies like BC Tel, and ICBC and the single cable company for your area.

The fact is; anyone making minimum wage has it better than we did in the 1980's, they're just more entitled now. Capitalism, competition and technology has made it possible to afford things that we never could back then.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Hal 9000

[The_Squid]

All anecdotal evidence based on your word... Forgive me that I still ask for an actual cite.

[Hal 9000]

All anecdotal evidence based on your word... Forgive me that I still ask for an actual cite.

How fucking old are you?

[The_Squid]

How fucking old are you?

Why so hostile?

Using anecdotal evidence from one person's experience does not make your argument... I'm sure you can find someone else who breezed through the 80s with a good paying job and everything was roses...

So who's anecdotal evidence should we use? I know it won't be nearly as convenient for your argument... but let's use actual statistics!

Edited August 10, 2015 by The_Squid

[eyeball]

Using anecdotal evidence from one person's experience does not make your argument... I'm sure you can find someone else who breezed through the 80s with a good paying job and everything was roses...

So who's anecdotal evidence should we use? I know it won't be nearly as convenient for your argument... but let's use actual statistics!

Breezing through is one thing, then there's going against the wind.

I know people who fished and barely made enough to pay their fuel through the 80's. Then the 90's came and DFO rewarded them with an individual quota and virtual licence to print money...don't ask me why...ostensibly it was because the IMF told the government of the day, Liberals, that our fisheries would collapse if they didn't. The Conservatives must have thought so too because they just accelerated the privatization scheme.

A few years ago I was forced to deal, by government regulations, to lease quota through a broker for some kid or divorced wife who'd inherited quota from someone. They got paid $3.65 a lb and I got 15 cents which I had to share with my crew.

Statistics? I could probably go dig up the receipts.

There's often little reason or rhyme to how the cookies crumble. Like a lot of others I managed to fish my way in and out of the various and rather arbitrary qualifying periods used for determining who won the lottery but I also know a few few who were killed when they went fear fishing to meet the deadline. Coulda been me.

It probably doesn't take a genius to guess who quota holders won't be voting for.

Edited August 10, 2015 by eyeball

[Hal 9000]

Why so hostile?

Using anecdotal evidence from one person's experience does not make your argument... I'm sure you can find someone else who breezed through the 80s with a good paying job and everything was roses...

So who's anecdotal evidence should we use? I know it won't be nearly as convenient for your argument... but let's use actual statistics!

I'm sure some people did cruise through the 80's, my parents did. I'm talking about life from a low income perspective which is where I was in the late 80's.

You can't really believe that everything in the 4$ hr era was simply 40% of the cost of today. Globalization, free trade and competition has helped all the low income people. Groceries dropped significantly when companies like superstore and Walmart came around.

I haven't even got into the other side where people now get gst refunds and child tax credit. How about education and bursaries, that stuff is all easier to come by today.

[The_Squid]

I'm sure some people did cruise through the 80's, my parents did. I'm talking about life from a low income perspective which is where I was in the late 80's.

You can't really believe that everything in the 4$ hr era was simply 40% of the cost of today. Globalization, free trade and competition has helped all the low income people. Groceries dropped significantly when companies like superstore and Walmart came around.

I haven't even got into the other side where people now get gst refunds and child tax credit. How about education and bursaries, that stuff is all easier to come by today.

More anecdotes.... Interesting, but useless.

[Hal 9000]

It's useless because you simply don't want to hear it.

Do I have to prove that a cd cost 25 bucks or that icbc didn't finance insurance . Another one, my first new snowboard in 1990 cost 700$, today you can buy one for about 4-500$. A pint of beer was $4, today they're about 7$. More anecdotes that you'll bury your head in the sand to.

[The_Squid]

It's useless because you simply don't want to hear it.

Do I have to prove that a cd cost 25 bucks or that icbc didn't finance insurance . Another one, my first new snowboard in 1990 cost 700$, today you can buy one for about 4-500$. A pint of beer was $4, today they're about 7$. More anecdotes that you'll bury your head in the sand to.

Snowboards are cheaper, therefore the kids today have it easier...

Got it.

A $7 pint is not the case in Vancouver, where it so happens most people live. Heck, I don't think it was even $4 in the 80s. That sounds like 90s beer prices to me... So you see the problem with using anecdotes as evidence for sweeping statements about how good those young people have it these days?

Still don't really believe your anecdotal information works as a general rule. Let's stick to actual statistics by actual statisticians and economist that track these sorts of things.

So why don't you cough up that cite about the cost of living being cheaper now than it was in the 80s....? When you make a claim, be prepared to back it up with more than stories of your youth...

Edited August 10, 2015 by The_Squid

[Hal 9000]

I know how economists work. They'll say the average pair of jeans is 60$, A bottle of coke is 2$ and an average bottle of wine is 15$ etc etc. The fact is; you can dress quite nicely in clothing from Old Navy where jeans are generally about 30$, you can buy a 6 pack of coke bottles for about 4$ at Walmart and most people drink wine valued at about 10$ or less. Then they don't account at all for those things we were paying back in the day that are generally free now such as movie and music downloads. If people are paying on average more for their phone service, it's because they are paying for a $500-1000 for the phone with unlimited internet and nationwide calling etc etc. that's their choice. The average price of a car may have gone up 250%, but the interest rates, financing options and low payments make them more affordable than ever.

Find me someone on minimum wage that doesn't have a full a cell phone package and a 52" plasma TV.

[cybercoma]

In the 80's when minimum wage was 4.00$ or close to, we simply didn't have or couldn't afford the standard of living that the low income wage earners of today have

$4 in 1980 dollars is $11.46 in 2015 dollars.

More importantly, you look at the cost of housing and the cost of education and the cost of healthcare over that time and you'll see that it has increased far greater than inflation or wages.

So cry me a god damned river.

Edited August 10, 2015 by cybercoma

[Hal 9000]

Minimum wage was about 3.40 in 1980, went up to 3.65 in 1981. Which translates to about the same as today.

Housing I know for a fact is cheaper - renting anyway, if house prices are up, that's an indication of market and interest rates. Im not sure what interest rates for buying houses were in the mid-late 80's, but I know people were elated when the rate dropped to 7-8%. That's not really an issue for minimum wage earners anyway.

BTW - I'm not crying...never have, but young "victims" like squid have no idea just how good they've got it in todays world.

[The_Squid]

$4 in 1980 dollars is $11.46 in 2015 dollars.

More importantly, you look at the cost of housing and the cost of education and the cost of healthcare over that time and you'll see that it has increased far greater than inflation or wages.

So cry me a god damned river.

Anecdotal stories aren't evidence for anything.

If the poster would like to show that the cost of living was less in the 80s, then he should provide a cite. Here is a graph that shows exactly what you mentioned about education , health and housing costs vs. the CPI.

[The_Squid]

Minimum wage was about 3.40 in 1980, went up to 3.65 in 1981. Which translates to about the same as today.

Housing I know for a fact is cheaper - renting anyway, if house prices are up, that's an indication of market and interest rates. Im not sure what interest rates for buying houses were in the mid-late 80's, but I know people were elated when the rate dropped to 7-8%. That's not really an issue for minimum wage earners anyway.

BTW - I'm not crying...never have, but young "victims" like squid have no idea just how good they've got it in todays world.

How old am I Hal 9000?

[bush_cheney2004]

If the poster would like to show that the cost of living was less in the 80s, then he should provide a cite. Here is a graph that shows exactly what you mentioned about education , health and housing costs vs. the CPI.

The graph is for the U.S., not Canada. Typical.....

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/07/higher-education-bubble-college-tuition.html

[The_Squid]

The graph is for the U.S., not Canada. Typical.....

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/07/higher-education-bubble-college-tuition.html

You're correct... my mistake.

[PIK]

Squid, the reason why it is a great idea ,if no one has mentioned it. Is you need a receipt to apply. So which means the underground economy takes a hit. No receipt ,no credit. . Sorry if anyone had mentioned this fact.

[Bryan]

actual cost of living has either remained the same or is even lower than the 80's.

Much lower for much longer. Almost everything you can possibly buy has followed the same pattern: you can get far more now for less hours worked.

[The_Squid]

Squid, the reason why it is a great idea ,if no one has mentioned it. Is you need a receipt to apply. So which means the underground economy takes a hit. No receipt ,no credit. . Sorry if anyone had mentioned this fact.

It also applies if you do the work yourself. You can claim materials. So, while it may have a minor effect on the cash only economy of home improvements, it certainly won't cover the billion and a half that this will cost us every year.

[PIK]

Most people cant do it themselves, so a majority will hire someone. Nice try.

[Vancouver King]

Most people cant do it themselves, so a majority will hire someone. Nice try.

Why do you think every money measure passed by the Tories is aimed at that demographic that needs it the least?

[Smallc]

Why do you think every money measure passed by the Tories is aimed at that demographic that needs it the least?

The middle class? According to most of you they're the ones that need it the most.

[The_Squid]

The middle class? According to most of you they're the ones that need it the most.

The average person might slap some paint up and be eligible for a couple hundred bucks. People who can afford thousands of dollars in renos will be the real beneficiaries of this tax subsidy.

Hell, I might come out a winner... I'll be renovating a few things when I sell the place in a year or so... which means I will be able to get the subsidy, plus the cost should be made up for in the asking price. win-win.

I would be doing the work anyway since it should mean increased value and a quicker sale (no guarantees, but it should work out that way...)

If I have to wait for the subsidy to kick in, I can do that too....

Edited August 10, 2015 by The_Squid