Caitlyn Jenner

[Je suis Omar]

So you don't think there's any chance that a 65 year old man suddenly deciding he wants to be a woman could involve some mental illness? Do you ever think there's cases that involve mental illness? Does anybody that has or will ever decide to be the opposite sex ever have the possibility of making that decision out of mental illness?

OR

So you don't think there's any chance that a 65 year old man suddenly deciding he wants to be a conservative could involve some mental illness? Do you ever think there's cases that involve mental illness? Does anybody that has or will ever decide to be conservative ever have the possibility of making that decision out of mental illness?

OR

So you don't think there's any chance that a 65 year old man suddenly deciding he wants to be a homosexual could involve some mental illness? Do you ever think there's cases that involve mental illness? Does anybody that has or will ever decide to be homosexual ever have the possibility of making that decision out of mental illness?

OR

So you don't think there's any chance that a 65 year old man suddenly deciding he wants to be president of the USA could involve some mental illness? Do you ever think there's cases that involve mental illness? Does anybody that has or will ever decide to be the president ever have the possibility of making that decision out of mental illness?

[WestCoastRunner]

So you don't think there's any chance that a 65 year old man suddenly deciding he wants to be a woman could involve some mental illness? Do you ever think there's cases that involve mental illness? Does anybody that has or will ever decide to be the opposite sex ever have the possibility of making that decision out of mental illness?

Jenner did not SUDDENLY decide to be a woman. From a very early age, she knew she was female. As a child, Jenner used to dress up as a girl and as far back as the 80's, she was taking hormones and developing breasts. You can read more on her story here. (that's if you want to try and understand what transgender individuals encounter throughout their life)

Are you suggesting that Jenner was born with a mental illness?

[WestCoastRunner]

I understand that it's a condition that they decided to reclassify in order to protect some people from ridicule. They don't deserve ridicule. They're almost certainly mentally ill.

I suppose you also think gay individuals have a mental illness:

"Homosexuality was diagnosed in the DSM as an illness until 1973, and conditions pertaining to homosexuality were not entirely removed until 1987."

[Smallc]

I suppose you also think gay individuals have a mental illness:

I've already said such. We all have some type of mental problem I would imagine. It doesn't make our reality anymore real.

[TimG]

I suppose you also think gay individuals have a mental illness:

A strawman. Gay people don't seek the mutilate their body. They just want to live as they are. Any condition where an otherwise normal person feels compelled to seek out radical surgeries to correct perceived defects is a mental illness. That said, someone who is 'transgender' but does not seek surgeries would be like a gay person (i.e. someone who accepts who they are). Edited June 3, 2015 by TimG

[Hal 9000]

Do we even know wether Jenner was/is gay? I mean, if he was gay then, is she all of the sudden "straight" now? If he was straight then, is she gay now? Am I even allowed to wonder this stuff? It's all too much to take in.

[Shady]

Jenner did not SUDDENLY decide to be a woman. From a very early age, she knew she was female. As a child, Jenner used to dress up as a girl and as far back as the 80's, she was taking hormones and developing breasts. You can read more on her story here. (that's if you want to try and understand what transgender individuals encounter throughout their life)

Are you suggesting that Jenner was born with a mental illness?

He could have some degree of mental illness. At the very least, his brain isn't wired as it should be. Gender isn't a choice. You're born with an x or y chromosome. It's biological reality.

[Shady]

I've already said such. We all have some type of mental problem I would imagine. It doesn't make our reality anymore real.

Exactly. I think some people get defensive when they hear it as a disorder or such. I think of it more as the so-called wiring of the brain being unlike it should be. Same thing with homosexuality, and many other things.

[Smallc]

Exactly. I think some people get defensive when they hear it as a disorder or such. I think of it more as the so-called wiring of the brain being unlike it should be. Same thing with homosexuality, and many other things.

And there's nothing insulting about any of that. It's only how some choose to perceive it.

[GostHacked]

So you don't think there's any chance that a 65 year old man suddenly deciding he wants to be a woman could involve some mental illness? Do you ever think there's cases that involve mental illness? Does anybody that has or will ever decide to be the opposite sex ever have the possibility of making that decision out of mental illness?

Have you ever suffered from a position you take that does not sit well with you? One you struggle to adhere to but you know deep down that that is not the case?

Like the time I thought I was a democrat. Then I was a republican. Both caused me mental issues of what I truly was.. turns out I am neither. But society wanted me to fit into one of those categories.

That struggle can cause depression and such. I understand what this person did, but I don't have to accept it or celebrate it.

Edited June 3, 2015 by GostHacked

[Topaz]

He/She is kinda confusing. Bruce was a man physically that married a woman, so was he a lesbian in his mind or now that he's appears to be a woman, is he attract to men or women?? Frankly, its his/her life and I'm tired of seeing it in headlines, media needs to move on.

[Michael Hardner]

And there's nothing insulting about any of that. It's only how some choose to perceive it.

I can see how people would be insulted by being called, in increasing order of offense, 'different' 'abnormal' 'disordered' 'mentally ill'.

Does anybody remember when Chretien was chided for saying Alberta was "different" ?

[Smallc]

I can see how people would be insulted by being called, in increasing order of offense, 'different' 'abnormal' 'disordered' 'mentally ill'.

Does offence change reality? So then, lets go a bit further and double back. Should we be insulted by reality?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Smallc

[Black Dog]

He could have some degree of mental illness. At the very least, his brain isn't wired as it should be. Gender isn't a choice. You're born with an x or y chromosome. It's biological reality.

They used to say the same thing about homosexuals too. Do you think gay people are mentally ill as well?

[Black Dog]

Does offence change reality? So then, lets go a bit further and double back. Should we be insulted by reality?

This is the kind of crap people who delight in offending people pull all the time. "Oh it's not my fault you're offended. You shouldn't be so sensitive!"

The "reality" here is that there's a real debate about the complexities of gender and sexual biology and anyone who pretends otherwise is a blithering idiot. That's not an insult, just reality.

[Michael Hardner]

Does offence change reality? So then, lets go a bit further and double back. Should we be insulted by reality?

No it doesn't change reality, but your assertion was that there is "nothing insulting"...

*Should* we be insulted by reality ? You're effectively asking people to control their emotions in response to any statement. Maybe we "shouldn't" be insulted by "fatso" "n*****r" "f****t" etc. but we're people.

[Shady]

No it doesn't change reality, but your assertion was that there is "nothing insulting"...*Should* we be insulted by reality ? You're effectively asking people to control their emotions in response to any statement. Maybe we "shouldn't" be insulted by "fatso" "n*****r" "f****t" etc. but we're people.

Nothing Smallc has said amounts to anything close to those pejoratives. Everything has been discussed in a logical and reasonable manner.

[Shady]

They used to say the same thing about homosexuals too. Do you think gay people are mentally ill as well?

We've already been over this. No homosexuals aren't "mentally ill" but one cannot deny that an error in the brains wiring exists.

[Black Dog]

We've already been over this. No homosexuals aren't "mentally ill" but one cannot deny that an error in the brains wiring exists.

One easily can. The fact that gay people exist and have always existed in significant numbers indicates that its not an error but rather something that's within the range of human variation.

[Smallc]

Maybe we "shouldn't" be insulted by "fatso" "n*****r" "f****t" etc. but we're people.

Maybe you should argue more honestly.

[Smallc]

One easily can. The fact that gay people exist and have always existed in significant numbers indicates that its not an error but rather something that's within the range of human variation.

And that variation is not the normal outcome that nature would desire. That should be obvious, as the mechanics were decided long ago.

[Michael Hardner]

Nothing Smallc has said amounts to anything close to those pejoratives. Everything has been discussed in a logical and reasonable manner.

Well, the other example I gave was about people being offended by the word "different".

The point I'm making is that people do take offense, and have the right to decide what they're called.

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe you should argue more honestly.

I didn't mean to imply that your words were as hurtful as these, or meant to be hurtful, only that the idea that we "shouldn't" be insulted by words isn't very useful in this context.

[Smallc]

I didn't mean to imply that your words were as hurtful as these, or meant to be hurtful, only that the idea that we "shouldn't" be insulted by words isn't very useful in this context.

We should be insulted by words that are meant to be insulting. Words that are not meant to be insulting can be hurtful - can cause you pain - but they shouldn't be insulting. In other words, it actually is your problem if you fall into that group and are insulted by non insulting language.

And I apologize for being snippy. I misread your statement.

[Black Dog]

And that variation is not the normal outcome that nature would desire. That should be obvious, as the mechanics were decided long ago.

The same nature that created said variation. OK.